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Orkeosaurus wrote:If we all came from monkeys, how come we still got monkeys?

Riddle me that, atheists.

We didn’t come from monkeys, we share ancestors with monkeys. We evolved one way, they evolved another.

sebster wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:If we all came from monkeys, how come we still got monkeys?

Riddle me that, atheists.

We didn’t come from monkeys, we share ancestors with monkeys. We evolved one way, they evolved another.

Or maybe the monkeys are our creators, intelligently designing us to be a "what-if" scenario wherein they get to observe the effects of what would happen in primates were to destroy the environment and pillage precious, limited resources in a roundabout way of self destruction, proving it was better to live with nature rather than against it.

Whoah...gonna lie down after that heavy realization.

Nah, you're thinking of mice there. Mice.

WarOne wrote:Or maybe the monkeys are our creators, intelligently designing us to be a "what-if" scenario wherein they get to observe the effects of what would happen in primates were to destroy the environment and pillage precious, limited resources in a roundabout way of self destruction, proving it was better to live with nature rather than against it.

Whoah...gonna lie down after that heavy realization.

Get yourself a science degree in a completely unrelated field*, produce a list of 'problems' with evolution (a combination of things science doesn't entirely understand at this point in time** and wildly misunderstood scientific principles***), and then start speculating wildly about the creator monkeys. Launch an expedition to find the creator monkeys, but don't bother publishing the unsuccessful results.

You will then have exactly as much science as creationist science.



*I recommend Agricultural Science, because it's close enough to like animals and stuff that people will assume you know what you're talking about, but you don't ever have to really bother with learning about evolution and stuff.
**Actually, this can also include things that science didn't understand ten or twenty years ago but has since figured, just keep pretending.
***The second law of thermodynamics is always a good one.

sebster wrote:

WarOne wrote:Or maybe the monkeys are our creators, intelligently designing us to be a "what-if" scenario wherein they get to observe the effects of what would happen in primates were to destroy the environment and pillage precious, limited resources in a roundabout way of self destruction, proving it was better to live with nature rather than against it.

Whoah...gonna lie down after that heavy realization.

Get yourself a science degree in a completely unrelated field*, produce a list of 'problems' with evolution (a combination of things science doesn't entirely understand at this point in time** and wildly misunderstood scientific principles***), and then start speculating wildly about the creator monkeys. Launch an expedition to find the creator monkeys, but don't bother publishing the unsuccessful results.

You will then have exactly as much science as creationist science.



*I recommend Agricultural Science, because it's close enough to like animals and stuff that people will assume you know what you're talking about, but you don't ever have to really bother with learning about evolution and stuff.
**Actually, this can also include things that science didn't understand ten or twenty years ago but has since figured, just keep pretending.
***The second law of thermodynamics is always a good one.

Sounds like you have done this before?

I assume you found not monkeys, but intelligent rocks that created us.

If the first amendment is bunkum, the government is allowed to stomp on creationism in schools if it likes.

Kilkrazy wrote:If the first amendment is bunkum, the government is allowed to stomp on creationism in schools if it likes.

Actually, if you meant gundam, then the government would need a lot more to take out the Creationism Gundam a.k.a. God Gundam than a first amendment.

sebster wrote:We didn’t come from monkeys, we share ancestors with monkeys. We evolved one way, they evolved another.

Then how come we aren't at war with them? If we were both evolving, they should have guns too.

Beetles have guns.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

sebster wrote:We didn’t come from monkeys, we share ancestors with monkeys. We evolved one way, they evolved another.

Then how come we aren't at war with them? If we were both evolving, they should have guns too.

Their constitution was written by atheist liberals, so their government took all the guns away.

oh no

Orkeosaurus wrote:

sebster wrote:We didn’t come from monkeys, we share ancestors with monkeys. We evolved one way, they evolved another.

Then how come we aren't at war with them? If we were both evolving, they should have guns too.

Forget the Monkeys. Its the bees we have to watch out for, the Killer Bees!

Orkeosaurus wrote:

sebster wrote:We didn’t come from monkeys, we share ancestors with monkeys. We evolved one way, they evolved another.

Then how come we aren't at war with them? If we were both evolving, they should have guns too.

Dude, most great apes don't need guns. Have you seen the size of the average gorilla? It's like 400lb of overdeveloped muscle.

So are we debating evolution jokingly? Or are there really yokels on Dakka?

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Dude, most great apes don't need guns. Have you seen the size of the average gorilla? It's like 400lb of overdeveloped muscle.

Which is awesome, until the ape is confronted by a guy with a .416 Remington Mag rifle more than ten feet away. Then he's just 400lb of dead weight for the hunter to carry.

George Spiggott wrote:

generalgrog wrote:Everyone pay close attention...George Spiggot from the Internets has spoken!!

He is a representative from the church of Richard Dawkins..and I think I heard him say "Can I get an amen?"

GG

I'm from the internet and the church of Richard Dawkins? Well I am highly manoeuvrable after all. I'm glad we agree, arguing this man's (Wise) credentials further would have wasted us both time and effort.

I'm sending you this piece of cheese as a token of our new found friendship and agreement.

Of course the point of my post was to show that there were PhD scientists that think creationism is a science and not necessarily a religious concept.(Which is what I think killkrazy was trying to say) I pointed out that there are scientists that would call it science.( I have some time now so I will get more). The point of the post wasn't to try and prove baranism or irreducible complexity.

I think it's pretty poor form of you to quote Richard Dawkins emotional nonscientific plea from wikipedia to make some point attacking Wises credibility. But of course, that what people who don't have a leg to stand on do..they attack emotionally instead of factually. Welcome to the church of Richard Dawkins.

GG

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:

sebster wrote:We didn’t come from monkeys, we share ancestors with monkeys. We evolved one way, they evolved another.

Then how come we aren't at war with them? If we were both evolving, they should have guns too.

Dude, most great apes don't need guns. Have you seen the size of the average gorilla? It's like 400lb of overdeveloped muscle.

Like the average American baseball player

Kilkrazy wrote:I hope you will not take it amiss if I ask for some references.

Here are some more

Dr Raymond V. Damadian--invented the MRI. M.D from Albert Einstein college of medicine. Winner of the National medal of technology, Lemelson MIT prize,and inducted into the national Inventors Hall of fame.

Dr. John R. Baumgardner--Geophysicist---Dr. Baumgardner earned degrees from Texas Tech University (B.S., electrical engineering), and Princeton University (M.S., electrical engineering), and earned a Ph.D. in geophysics and space physics from UCLA. Since 1984 he has been employed as a technical staff member at Los Alamos (New Mexico) National Laboratory.

Dr Ian Macreadie (Molecular Biologist and Microbiologist)

Author of more than 60 research papers, he is a Principal Research Scientist at the Biomolecular Research Institute of Australia’s Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO), and national secretary of the Australian Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. In 1997 he was part of a team which won the CSIRO’s top prize, the Chairman’s Medal. In 1995 he won the Australian Society for Microbiology’s top award, for outstanding contributions to research.

Dr. Raymond Jones (Agricultural Scientist)

This, combined with Dr Jones' other achievements in improving the productivity of the tropical grazing industries, caused CSIRO chief Dr Elizabeth Heij to describe him as ‘one of the top few CSIRO scientists in Australia’. Among the awards he has received are the CSIRO Gold Medal for Research Excellence, and the Urrbrae Award, the latter in recognition of the practical significance of his work for the grazing industry.

Dr. A.E. Wilder-Smith (3 Doctorates and a 3-star NATO General)

The late Dr. Arthur E.Wilder-Smith, an honored scientist with an amazing three earned doctorates. He held many distinguished positions. A former Evolutionist, Dr. Wilder-Smith debated various leading scientists on the subject throughout the world. In his opinion, the Evolution model did not fit as well with the established facts of science as did the Creation model of intelligent design.

Dr. Robert Gentry (nuclear physicist)

Dr. Robert V. Gentry is a nuclear physicist who worked 13 years for the Oakridge National Laboratory as a guest scientist. During the time he worked there, he was recognized as the world's leading authority in his area of research. It is interesting to note that when he began his research, he was an evolutionist. Today, Dr. Gentry is a fully convinced young earth creation scientist.

Dr. Hugh Norman Ross
He earned a BSc in physics from the University of British Columbia and an MSc and PhD in astronomy from the University of Toronto; and he was a postdoctoral research fellow at Caltech, studying quasars and galaxies. Ross was the youngest person ever to serve as director of observations for Vancouver’s Royal Astronomical Society.

GG

edit...Ross and Gentry are two of my favorites. Ross is an old earth creationist and Gentry is a young earth creationist.

sebster wrote:*I recommend Agricultural Science, because it's close enough to like animals and stuff that people will assume you know what you're talking about, but you don't ever have to really bother with learning about evolution and stuff.

I think Library and Information Science is the best degree you can have. Because, you know, it's about libraries. So they should know...everything.

Back on topic, O'Donnell is an idiot and a politician. As evidenced by her somehow being Catholic AND a biblical fundamentalist, she's just pandering and talking out of both sides of her mouth, and stupidly at that.

It also proves once again (not that it was ever in doubt) what a complete dope Sarah and Todd Palin are for backing some of the candidates they did. If you have real aspirations, you don't attach your name to lightweights like O'Donnell.

And more Creationists....

Alexander Arndt
* Ph.D.
* Professor of Analytical Chemistry of Heidelberg University, Germany
* Former vice-president of the USSR Academy of Medical Sciences Institute for Ecology Research.

Thomas G. Barnes
* Physicist
* D.Sc. from Hardin-Simmons University (1950)
* Professor emeritus of Physics and Director Schellenger Research Laboratories of Texas Western College of the University of Texas at El Paso
* Former consultant to Globe Universal Sciences, Inc. in El Paso
* Former research physicist at Duke University (1942-45)
* M.S. degree from Brown University (1936) while studying under the famous physicist R.B. Lindsay
* Director of many important research projects on terrestrial magnetism and atmospheric physics
* Published various scientific papers and textbooks
* Member of the Editorial Board of the Creation Research Society Quarterly

Steven A. Austin
* Geologist
* Ph.D. from Pennsylvania State University, doctoral dissertation on coal formation
* M.S. in geology from San Jose State University
* B.S. in geology from the University of Washington
* Consulting geologist for government and industry
* Member: Geological Society of America
* Member: American Association of Petroleum Geologists
* Member: the Society for Sedimentary Geology
* Member: the International Association of Sedimentologists
* Author of numerous papers including publication in the peer-reviewed journal International Geology Review (1999)
*Chairman of the Geology Department, Institute for Creation Research Graduate School

Donald B. DeYoung
* Physicist, specializing in solid-state and nuclear science, as well as astronomy
* Ph.D. in physics from Iowa State University
* M.S. in physics from Michigan Technical University
* B.S. in physics from Michigan Technological University
* Member: Indiana Academy of Science
* Published articles in The Journal of Chemistry and Physics of Solids, The Journal of Chemical Physics, and Creation Research Society Quarterly
*Editor of the Creation Research Society Quarterly (March 1989 - March 1994)
* Author of various books, including:
o Weather and the Bible
o In Six Days: Why Fifty Scientists Choose to Believe in Creation
o Astronomy and the Bible
o The Moon: Its Creation, Form and Significance
o Voyage to the Planets
*Chairman, Physical Science, Grace College, Winona Lake, Indiana

Danny R. Faulkner
* Astronomer
* Ph.D. and M.A. in Astronomy, Indiana University
* M.S. in Physics from Clemson University
* B.S. in Math from Bob Jones University
* Professor at the University of South Carolina, Lancaster (physics and astronomy)
* Associate Professor of Astronomy at the Institute for Creation Research Graduate School
* Published more than two dozen papers in various astronomy and astrophysics journals

Duane T. Gish
* Biochemist
* Ph.D. in Biochemistry from University of California at Berkeley (1953)
* B.S. in chemistry from U.C.L.A. (1949)
* Research Associate, Research Division, The Upjohn Company, Kalamazoo, Michigan (1960-1971)
* Assistant Research Associate in Biochemistry, University of California (Berkeley), Virus Laboratory (1956-1960)
* Assistant Professor of Biochemistry, Cornell University Medical College (NYC) (1955-1956)
* Lilly Postdoctoral Fellow, Cornell University Medical College (1953-1955)
* Phi Beta Kappa, University of California, Los Angeles
* Vice President of the Institute for Creation Research
* Lecturer and most well-known debater on Creation-Evolution

John Grebe
* Chemist
* D.Sc. from Case Institute of Technology (1935) (Case is now part of Western Reserve University)
* Honorary Doctor of Laws degree from Hillsdale College (1967)
* M.S. from Case Institute of Technology
* Former researcher at Oak Ridge National Laboratory Reactor School and Engineering Team (1946-1947)
* Former Director of the Dow Chemical Company Physical Chemistry Research Laboratories in Midland, Michigan
* Served as Chief Scientist to the Army Chemical Corps at Edgewood Arsenal New Baltimore (1948-1949)
* In 1943 became the youngest recipient ever to receive the Chemical Industry Medal
* Certificate of Merit from The Franklin Institute (1942)
* A founder of the Creation Research Society

George F. Howe
* Botanist and biologist
* Ph.D. and M.Sc. in Botany from Ohio State University (1959, 1956)
* Charles F. Kettering fellow while at Ohio State
* B.S. in Botany from Wheaton College
* Post-doctoral studies in radiation biology, Cornell University (1965-66)
* Post-doctoral studies in botany, Washington State University (1961)
* Post-doctoral studies in desert biology, Arizona State University (1963)
* Post-doctoral studies in radiation biology, Cornell University
* Former Assistant Professor of biology and botany at Westmont College, Santa Barbara, California
* Professor and Chairman of the Division of Natural Sciences, The Master's College, Newhall, California
* Published papers in scientific journals including: Bulletin of the Southern California Academy of Sciences, Ohio Journal of Science, and Creation Research Society Quarterly
* Twice voted Teacher of the Year by students at The Master's College
* Charter member and former President of the Creation Research Society (1977-1983)
* Editor of the Creation Research Society Quarterly (1969-1973)
* Director of CRS Grand Canyon Experimental Station

John W. Klotz
* Biologist and Geneticist
* Ph.D in Biology from the University of Pittsburgh
* Former Professor of Biology and Chairman of the Division of Natural Science, Concordia
* Senior College, Fort Wayne, Indiana
* Chief Academic Officer, Concordia Seminary, St. Louis
* Member of the Editorial Board of the Creation Research Society Quarterly

Leonid Korochkin
* Professor of Genetics at Yale University
* Head of the molecular biology laboratory of the Russian Academy of Sciences.

Lane P. Lester
* Geneticist and Biologist
* Ph.D. in Genetics from Purdue University, 1971
* Professor of Biology, Emmanuel College, Franklin Springs, Georgia
* Director, Museum of Earth and Life History, Liberty University
* Member, Board of Directors, Creation Research Society
* Managing Editor, Creation Research Society Quarterly
* 15 publications, including: Designs in the Living World and The History of Life

Charles B. Thaxton
* Chemist
* Ph.D. in Chemistry from Iowa State University
* Postdoctoral Fellow at Harvard University (2 years), history and philosophy of science
* Postdoctoral appointment in molecular biology laboratory at Brandeis University (3 years)
* Director of Curriculum Research of the Foundation for Thought and Ethics in Dallas
* Staff member of the Julian Center in Julian, California.

A.J. (Monty) White
* Chemist
* Ph.D. in physical chemistry, specialty: gas kinetics, from University College of Wales
* B.S. (with honors) from University College of Wales
* Post-doctoral studies at University College of Wales
* Research fellow at the Edward Davies Chemical Laboratories, Aberystwyth, United Kingdom
* Previous university administrator at various schools
* Frequent writer on such topics as Creation-Evolution & science and the Bible
* Guest appearances on British TV and radio programs
* Student advisor, dean of students office, University of Cardiff, United Kingdom


You will see in the above list professors from Ivy league schools just like I said.

GG

generalgrog wrote:Of course the point of my post was to show that there were PhD scientists that think creationism is a science and not necessarily a religious concept.(Which is what I think killkrazy was trying to say) I pointed out that there are scientists that would call it science.( I have some time now so I will get more). The point of the post wasn't to try and prove baranism or irreducible complexity.

Sure Wise has a PhD, but it's in the wrong subject. Wise himself admits that his theory is not scientific.

generalgrog wrote:I think it's pretty poor form of you to quote Richard Dawkins emotional nonscientific plea from wikipedia to make some point attacking Wises credibility. But of course, that what people who don't have a leg to stand on do..they attack emotionally instead of factually. Welcome to the church of Richard Dawkins.

If the quotes from Wikipedia are misquoted or out of context please let me know, otherwise they stand. Dawkins quote attacks Wise' scientific method. Wise' quote confirms Dawkins accusation. It's an open and shut case.

BTW:

generalsgrog's emotional nonscientific plea from the internet(s) to make some point attacking Richard Dawkins' credibility. But of course, that what people who don't have a leg to stand on do..they attack emotionally instead of factually. Welcome to the church of generalsgrog's.

@ George...strawman arguments for the win!!

He is a scientist no matter how much you would like to smear him. Now.. go back and look at all those other guys I posted and pick them apart as well. You may be able to pick a few but you won't be able to smear all of them.

GG

Oh dear god why?????

@generalgrog: I have no horse in this particular race, but you have to admit your list shrinks quite a bit once you remove all the geologists, chemists, astronomers, engineers, physicists and agricultural types.

You could be the most brilliant individual on the planet in any one of those fields and it wouldn't qualify you to speak about evolution or even biology in general. Same as how a biology degree doesn't qualify you to speak about geology, chemistry, astronomy, electrical engineering, physics, etc. Not saying there aren't biologists in your list, just that they're the only ones who really matter and that looks to be a short list.

generalgrog wrote:@ George...strawman arguments for the win!!

He is a scientist no matter how much you would like to smear him. Now.. go back and look at all those other guys I posted and pick them apart as well. You may be able to pick a few but you won't be able to smear all of them.

What straw man? What smear? I have a quote from his own lips saying he doesn't apply scientific rigour to his theory.

There's very little information about some of these people. I really don't have the time to go through them all, you don't even supply the nature of their theories for most of them, it's jut a list of people. I'm not going to provide both sides of the argument for these people.

Only communists think quantity = quality.

gorgon wrote:@generalgrog: I have no horse in this particular race, but you have to admit your list shrinks quite a bit once you remove all the geologists, chemists, astronomers, engineers, physicists and agricultural types.

You could be the most brilliant individual on the planet in any one of those fields and it wouldn't qualify you to speak about evolution or even biology in general. Same as how a biology degree doesn't qualify you to speak about geology, chemistry, astronomy, electrical engineering, physics, etc. Not saying there aren't biologists in your list, just that they're the only ones who really matter and that looks to be a short list.

Creationism is more than "just evolution".

It's age of the earth(geology,physics,chemistry). Age of the universe(Astronomy, astrophysics,physics)

The point is that biology is just a small part of the puzzle.

GG




Automatically Appended Next Post:

George Spiggott wrote:

generalgrog wrote:@ George...strawman arguments for the win!!

He is a scientist no matter how much you would like to smear him. Now.. go back and look at all those other guys I posted and pick them apart as well. You may be able to pick a few but you won't be able to smear all of them.

What straw man? What smear? I have a quote from his own lips saying he doesn't apply scientific rigour to his theory.

There's very little information about some of these people. I really don't have the time to go through them all, you don't even supply the nature of their theories for most of them, it's jut a list of people. I'm not going to provide both sides of the argument for these people.

Only communists think quantity = quality.

The straw man you present, is "Kurt wise isn't a scientists because of his personal beliefs about issue X and Issue Y" the argument I presented is that Kurt wise is a scientist because of his educational credentials..that being a PhD in geology from Harvard.

You can't deny that he is an expert in the feild of geology because you can't deny his PhD from Harvard..so you attack him via the back door by attacking something he said. By the way it isn't even you attacking him..but Dawkins..you are just a parrot of Dawkins.

And of course you won't look at the other creationists because you don't have anything from Dawkins to Parrot about them. :-)

GG

Lol @ gg and his wall of text.

Ok let me get this straight, your actually LISTING individually people who are creationists and have doctorates, and the pool is from "the entire world"

Seriously, let's stop this farce.

To be a creationist, you have to be either ignorant of the facts, brainwashed or a liar. Why is it you guys get away with lying to children, but when we attempt to stop this disgraceful behavior the religious groups cry "I'm offended" and we have to sit back and let you?

I'm extremely offended when you and your ilk try to baffle people with (clearly incorrect) "science" in order to further your own religious agenda. Kids read this site, so telling lies about science should be as bannable an offence as linking hard core pornography.

You have lost. You lose in court. You always do, check the facts.

99% of the worlds leading biologist agree on this, and most Christians are evolutionists, you represent a tiny majority of wacky people.

The slight issues we have with some small areas of evolutionary biology does not mean you can thrust an untested alternative hypothesis on children, it will never happen as long as a modicum of sense remains amongst the powers that be.

I know you get offended when I inform you of the facts, but I get offended that a young kid might see your walls of misinformation and actually believe it, so you keep your untestable alternative hypothesis to yourself, and ill stop having to reply. Fairs fair!

Modqusiition on. if we are going to have this argument, AGAIN, then lets keep it polite. No direct attacks or snide remarks. Argue the issue and its merits ONLY. Blanket attacks on other posters, their faith, faiths in general, or lack of faith, will not be tolerated, as in I feel the need the need to suspend people level not tolerated.

Bloody hell that was quick!

Before taking the argument further it would be useful to define creationism.

Credit to General Grog for doing the research to come up with references.