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zonino wrote:Actually no, Eldar units are specialized to one role but I'm not convinced they do it that well... at least, not without major support, which goes against what it means to be a specialist.

Take Banshees. As people have pointed out, they can hit hard but don't stand up to much. That means they can't run up the table, they'll be shot up. So they have to take a transport. But said transport only has one access point and is neither open topped nor does it have an assault ramp. So said transport has to stay completely still for one turn, albiet if they moved flat out one turn with a 4+ cover save, but it still has to stand still. It cannot even turn on the spot because that counts as moving.

So now the Banshees are out and they assault a unit of Marines. Both units will be 4+ to hit, apart from the Exarch who is 3+, Banshees are then 5+ to kill, and Marines are 3+ to wound. Without Doom the Banshees should kill more than they lose, but not by much. With Doom, it's a whole different story of course..

Fire Dragons and Banshees do not need support. Moving 24" inches will put you next to anything and will be impossible to kill (esp with a fortuned cover save). Pivoting does not count as movement (check the rules), so combined with 2" disembark, 6" movement D6 fleet and 6" charge I'm sure Banshees can get into grips with whatever they need to assault. Besides that, Banshees will eat a marine squad almost every time. With I 10 and 3 attacks from each they're bound to kill almost the entire squad (not to mention the Exarch weapons). Marines are nothing special in combat. They have one attack each? Maybe 3 with a power weapon? I'm not impressed.

Everything in this game needs transports, not just Eldar. Have you ever tried playing marines against an IG while trying to hoof it across the table? You will NEVER win. There's a specific reason why Templars are no longer played.

I don't play Eldar, but I've fought them enough by good players to actually write all comers lists. They are definitely not an army to be overlooked and if you you do you will get beaten.

Pensword is totally right.

Pen≥Sword wrote:I don't play Eldar, but I've fought them enough by good players to actually write all comers lists. They are definitely not an army to be overlooked and if you you do you will get beaten.

Which is fine, but as long as you plan for them and play well, you won't get beaten.

Look, the eldar have huge, gaping flaws compared to other codices. they pay top price for transports that were only pretty good when the vehicle rules were totally better for skimmers. Now they're dramatically overcosted.

People that win with eldar win with foot eldar, and/or because they get lucky in their draws.

There are some fun armies, and eldar can certainly win more than they lose, but they're achingly tough for a new player, and really (aside from a few esoteric builds) mostly play as higher priced versions of other armies.

I've had a lot of trouble with Wave Serpents...don't they come with fancy anti melta force fields, and some fancy thing that reduces all weapons aiming at them above S8 to S8?

Of course, I had craptastic dicerolls in my fight against Eldar, but I'm just saying...

Pen≥Sword wrote:

zonino wrote:Actually no, Eldar units are specialized to one role but I'm not convinced they do it that well... at least, not without major support, which goes against what it means to be a specialist.

Take Banshees. As people have pointed out, they can hit hard but don't stand up to much. That means they can't run up the table, they'll be shot up. So they have to take a transport. But said transport only has one access point and is neither open topped nor does it have an assault ramp. So said transport has to stay completely still for one turn, albiet if they moved flat out one turn with a 4+ cover save, but it still has to stand still. It cannot even turn on the spot because that counts as moving.

So now the Banshees are out and they assault a unit of Marines. Both units will be 4+ to hit, apart from the Exarch who is 3+, Banshees are then 5+ to kill, and Marines are 3+ to wound. Without Doom the Banshees should kill more than they lose, but not by much. With Doom, it's a whole different story of course..

Fire Dragons and Banshees do not need support. Moving 24" inches will put you next to anything and will be impossible to kill (esp with a fortuned cover save). Pivoting does not count as movement (check the rules), so combined with 2" disembark, 6" movement D6 fleet and 6" charge I'm sure Banshees can get into grips with whatever they need to assault. Besides that, Banshees will eat a marine squad almost every time. With I 10 and 3 attacks from each they're bound to kill almost the entire squad (not to mention the Exarch weapons). Marines are nothing special in combat. They have one attack each? Maybe 3 with a power weapon? I'm not impressed.

Everything in this game needs transports, not just Eldar. Have you ever tried playing marines against an IG while trying to hoof it across the table? You will NEVER win. There's a specific reason why Templars are no longer played.

I don't play Eldar, but I've fought them enough by good players to actually write all comers lists. They are definitely not an army to be overlooked and if you you do you will get beaten.

Banshees can't assault out of a wave serpent. So either your super charge move takes 2 turns, or you're cheating.

Mattieau wrote:

Pen≥Sword wrote:

zonino wrote:Actually no, Eldar units are specialized to one role but I'm not convinced they do it that well... at least, not without major support, which goes against what it means to be a specialist.

Take Banshees. As people have pointed out, they can hit hard but don't stand up to much. That means they can't run up the table, they'll be shot up. So they have to take a transport. But said transport only has one access point and is neither open topped nor does it have an assault ramp. So said transport has to stay completely still for one turn, albiet if they moved flat out one turn with a 4+ cover save, but it still has to stand still. It cannot even turn on the spot because that counts as moving.

So now the Banshees are out and they assault a unit of Marines. Both units will be 4+ to hit, apart from the Exarch who is 3+, Banshees are then 5+ to kill, and Marines are 3+ to wound. Without Doom the Banshees should kill more than they lose, but not by much. With Doom, it's a whole different story of course..

Fire Dragons and Banshees do not need support. Moving 24" inches will put you next to anything and will be impossible to kill (esp with a fortuned cover save). Pivoting does not count as movement (check the rules), so combined with 2" disembark, 6" movement D6 fleet and 6" charge I'm sure Banshees can get into grips with whatever they need to assault. Besides that, Banshees will eat a marine squad almost every time. With I 10 and 3 attacks from each they're bound to kill almost the entire squad (not to mention the Exarch weapons). Marines are nothing special in combat. They have one attack each? Maybe 3 with a power weapon? I'm not impressed.

Everything in this game needs transports, not just Eldar. Have you ever tried playing marines against an IG while trying to hoof it across the table? You will NEVER win. There's a specific reason why Templars are no longer played.

I don't play Eldar, but I've fought them enough by good players to actually write all comers lists. They are definitely not an army to be overlooked and if you you do you will get beaten.

Banshees can't assault out of a wave serpent. So either your super charge move takes 2 turns, or you're cheating.

Or maybe... just maybe... he's assaulting on turn two?

The impossible to kill tank thing would you know... point in that fething direction.

I'm quite angry at this thread. Very angry actually.

We get it, codex creep and space marine codices being released every month means they get shiny new toys.

On the other hand, eldar players are saying the eldar require CREEE- or some such to play effectively.

Contest last turn after being in reserve for half the game? I don't get what requires tactical aptitude. Some fair positioning, but that's it, quite simple to boot.

Mechanized eldar are honestly the best build out for eldar, they can hold their own in the upper tiers and have their strengths.

Councils can easily eat half an army with no units to stop the council. Fire dragons aren't a neccesity, not by a long shot, a council is the only real thing an eldar army needs.

Then we get back to the rock-paper-scissors that you have to live with, psychic shut-down kills the council.

Reserves for mechdar in an objective mission is brutal, especially with warwalkers, serpents, and councils. Last turn contesting/capturing. Walkers tying up units for a game, or killing small MEQ squads/manticores.

Kill points is an uphill struggle since we don't have enough guns to go toe-to-toe.

Wait...

Blood angles (Yes, angles) are faster than eldar? Nope.

Team Edward (Blood angles, sorry) is (are) more durable than eldar? Ye--- no. Once they're out of their transports, of course, but the transports should last all game.

Eldar RoWarding also ruin blood angle pyskers, as well as rune priests. (For some reason, dual lash lists always pass their 3d6 test... o.O)

ChrisWWII wrote:I've had a lot of trouble with Wave Serpents...don't they come with fancy anti melta force fields, and some fancy thing that reduces all weapons aiming at them above S8 to S8?

Of course, I had craptastic dicerolls in my fight against Eldar, but I'm just saying...

The wave serpents ARE good, and for being the toughest transport in the game to kill, i think they aren't even over priced. I would love to pay 35 points for it, but it really is a better than 35 point model.

Melta Shields
Weapon Str reduction
Skimmer
Fast
TL Weapons
Underslung weapon

It's a good unit.

I agree that Wave Serpents are nice, and don't mind them for their points. My list uses quite a few - in fact the whole army is in them.

Wave Serpents are pretty accurately priced for their performance in my opinion, it's usually the stuff inside that's the problem.

Seer Council is rather forgiving with a decent invulnerable save that's pretty easy to get re-roll on. Fire Dragons perform admirably in their role since they are effective without spending points on them - not to mention that they don't need an open-topped transport to function.

Banshees would be good if it weren't that their 3 attacks tend to be consumed by a less-than-stellar S3. They simply must be supported by a Doomseer. Not too hard to manage, but it still means you're often paying twice for your performance - once for the squad and once for the seer.

I'd say there's essentially four units in the current codex that are up-to-par on cost:performance ratio; Wave Serpent, Seer Council, Fire Dragons, and Fire Prism.

If anything, vehicles in the current edition are too cheap in all the other codices. This is also the reason why Fire Dragons are so damned effective atm - everyone has lists crammed with vehicles.

I don't agree with the whole Eldar don't work or are sub par if you don't take mechdar and specifically use units x, y and z.

I've been playing Eldar since their current codex came out.

I've now settled on a footslogging list that doesn't use firedragons, seer councils, Wave Serpents or Prisms.

I'm not saying that these aren't viable units or good at what they do. It's just that they don't suit my style of play.

I prefer having numbers on my side (a contradiction with Eldar I know). This makes my lists more forgiving than mechdar.

The amount you pay for vehicles in a mechdar army is crazy! I'm not saying they are not good just that it leaves you with not much points left for units or troops. This makes these lists fragile as every unit lost hurts.

I'm not saying footslogging lists are better than mechadar here I'm justr pointing out that Eldar can be made to work with more than one build.

I'm also looking forward to a new codex for my pointy ears however I don't think it'll be here for some time yet therefor we need to cope with what we have.

I also don't think we have it that bad.

Not competitive =/= sub par.

Warwalkers are worth their points too.

zonino wrote:Actually no, Eldar units are specialized to one role but I'm not convinced they do it that well... at least, not without major support, which goes against what it means to be a specialist.

Take Banshees. As people have pointed out, they can hit hard but don't stand up to much. That means they can't run up the table, they'll be shot up. So they have to take a transport. But said transport only has one access point and is neither open topped nor does it have an assault ramp. So said transport has to stay completely still for one turn, albiet if they moved flat out one turn with a 4+ cover save, but it still has to stand still. It cannot even turn on the spot because that counts as moving.

So now the Banshees are out and they assault a unit of Marines. Both units will be 4+ to hit, apart from the Exarch who is 3+, Banshees are then 5+ to kill, and Marines are 3+ to wound. Without Doom the Banshees should kill more than they lose, but not by much. With Doom, it's a whole different story of course..

Read the Rule book. Assaulting unit uses highest models WS. So they are all using WS5, also I believe that pivoting a vehicle does not count as a movement.

Eldar in the right hands are still a top tier army. Ive done incredible things with them and have seen others win tournements with them as well.

They just face the same problem any older codex faces (chaos anyone?) they are very limited on there successful builds now and dont have all the cool bobbles and shiny toys the newer codexes have.

Laughing God wrote:

zonino wrote:Actually no, Eldar units are specialized to one role but I'm not convinced they do it that well... at least, not without major support, which goes against what it means to be a specialist.

Take Banshees. As people have pointed out, they can hit hard but don't stand up to much. That means they can't run up the table, they'll be shot up. So they have to take a transport. But said transport only has one access point and is neither open topped nor does it have an assault ramp. So said transport has to stay completely still for one turn, albiet if they moved flat out one turn with a 4+ cover save, but it still has to stand still. It cannot even turn on the spot because that counts as moving.

So now the Banshees are out and they assault a unit of Marines. Both units will be 4+ to hit, apart from the Exarch who is 3+, Banshees are then 5+ to kill, and Marines are 3+ to wound. Without Doom the Banshees should kill more than they lose, but not by much. With Doom, it's a whole different story of course..

Read the Rule book. Assaulting unit uses highest models WS. So they are all using WS5, also I believe that pivoting a vehicle does not count as a movement.

Eldar in the right hands are still a top tier army. Ive done incredible things with them and have seen others win tournements with them as well.

They just face the same problem any older codex faces (chaos anyone?) they are very limited on there successful builds now and dont have all the cool bobbles and shiny toys the newer codexes have.

You use the WS of the model attacking vs the WS of the unit being attacked. If you pivot, you cannot assault, see page 67 of BGB, first bullet point under disembarking.

As for Banshees vs Marines: Assume 10 Banshees with Exarch equipped with Executioner charge 10 Tactical Marines with Sergeant equipped with a Power Weapon

9 Banshees, 27 attacks, 13.5 hits, 4.5 dead Marines
1 Exarch, 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 dead Marines
3.17 Marines, 3.17 attacks, 1.58 hits, 1.06 wounds, 0.53 dead Banshees
1 Sergeant, 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead Banshee

Overall: 5.83 dead Marines, 1.53 dead Banshees. I wound say that's a lot better than "not by much".

Laughing God wrote:

zonino wrote:Actually no, Eldar units are specialized to one role but I'm not convinced they do it that well... at least, not without major support, which goes against what it means to be a specialist.

Take Banshees. As people have pointed out, they can hit hard but don't stand up to much. That means they can't run up the table, they'll be shot up. So they have to take a transport. But said transport only has one access point and is neither open topped nor does it have an assault ramp. So said transport has to stay completely still for one turn, albiet if they moved flat out one turn with a 4+ cover save, but it still has to stand still. It cannot even turn on the spot because that counts as moving.

So now the Banshees are out and they assault a unit of Marines. Both units will be 4+ to hit, apart from the Exarch who is 3+, Banshees are then 5+ to kill, and Marines are 3+ to wound. Without Doom the Banshees should kill more than they lose, but not by much. With Doom, it's a whole different story of course..

Read the Rule book. Assaulting unit uses highest models WS. So they are all using WS5, also I believe that pivoting a vehicle does not count as a movement.

Eldar in the right hands are still a top tier army. Ive done incredible things with them and have seen others win tournements with them as well.

They just face the same problem any older codex faces (chaos anyone?) they are very limited on there successful builds now and dont have all the cool bobbles and shiny toys the newer codexes have.

Pivoting a Wave Serpents counts as moving in terms of passengers disembarking (e.g. if Banshees disembarked from a wave serpent that did NOT pivot/move they may assault, but if it pivoted/moved they may not assault) As for the Weapon skill, the Majority will be used, in this case its WS4, so both banshees and Exarch hit on a 4+ against Marines(unless the Exarch has made a War Shout and the enemy unit has failed its Ld test, in which case the enemy is WS1, so you hit on a 3+, and the Marines hit on a 5+.

What the hell are you all on about? When you're attacking you use your own weapon skill vs the OPPONENT'S MAJORITY WEAPON SKILL.

So if you attack a unit of Marines with Banshees, the Exarch will be 3's to hit, the rest of the squad 4's to hit. Attacking back, the Marines will be 4+ to hit because the Majority of the Banshees are WS4.

However if the Banshees attacked a Squad that had 5 guys at WS4 and 4 at WS3, then they'd be 4+ to hit the squad because WS4 is the majority weapon skill.

Seriously guys.

As for the Theoryhammer. Hmm, it looks nice indeed, and can be increased with Doom, but we all know the dice are fickle indeed. Things won't always go that way, sometimes better, sometimes worse. I must admit I don't really do the theory side that much.

i admit i messed that up. Everybody should know that Banshees=dead marines and with doom Banshees= even more dead marines, theres no need to theoryhammer it, or comment that doom helps -.-

Nulipuli2 wrote:i admit i messed that up. Everybody should know that Banshees=dead marines and with doom Banshees= even more dead marines, theres no need to theoryhammer it, or comment that doom helps -.-

Yes, but there are cheaper, safer, better ways to kill marines.

Thank you zonino, somebody had to say it.

Yes, the key point here isn't that Banshees mess up marines when they reach them, it's HOW they reach them, and what happens next.

We've discussed the frailty of them and the transports, but what about after? If you break the Marine unit and can't get into cover you get shot to hell, and even if you DO get into cover that's no guarantee.

But we also discussed this, it's the whole finesse thing. We already know if you use them right they can do well, but other armies have similar units that can get into combat easier, do as much damage, and last longer.

But really why did this topic come up again I thought it had died? We all said our piece. Despite what we thing nothing is going to change anyway till the new codex so we may as well live with it till then.

sounds like he shouldnt be talking until he learns their tactics. First off, if he is playing with a huge amount of guardians, that could be problem #1. If he had jet bikes that would improve his situation. I also think the Wave Serpent/ Falcon are both great transports if used correctly. Like most army's they are good and bad, just have to tinker with a list to get it right

Polonius wrote:

Pen≥Sword wrote:I don't play Eldar, but I've fought them enough by good players to actually write all comers lists. They are definitely not an army to be overlooked and if you you do you will get beaten.

Which is fine, but as long as you plan for them and play well, you won't get beaten.

Urrrgghh... really? Let's not get into the idiosyncrasies of tailoring lists. If there's anything I loath more than a poor sport it's tailoring lists (see prior).

In the end the Eldar aren't the tippy top of the Codex mountain, but they are still a very solid army and are more than capable of holding their own against the rest of the grimdark enemies out there.

You dont' need to tailor your list. If there are eldar players in your area, you'll simply learn to take some stuff to bring down skimmers Once you do that, you're half way home against Eldar.

Which could easily be taking a Hydra or 2 if you run IG. That's what I've been doing since I've moved to an area that has a lot of Eldar and other skimmers.

Well you can't really go wrong with Hydra's either way. 2 Twin-Linked Hydra Autocannons on a tank with 12 front armour for 75 points and they can be taken in squadrons? Sounds good to me.

But yeah Polonus makes a point. You don't need to know beforehand what the Eldar player is going to have. Simply hearing the word "Eldar" should mean you'll be taking things to deal with tanks and skimmers. Both Eldar and their Dark Kin seem to be similar in that regard, with both armies taking skimmers everywhere.

Exactly. List tailoring isn't finding out that you've moved froma Marine heavy environment to a skimmer heavy one, so that Leamn Russ Executioner you used to field is now worthless, and Hydras would be a far better choice.

List tailoring is sitting across from your opponent, seeing that he didn't bring a lot of skimmers, and promptly swapping Hydras for Basilisks or whatever else would be more effective against him.