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I felt that while I really enjoyed the DA2 gameplay especially as a Mage, (mages are much more fun and they play a major part in the story), the plot was what let me down.

I felt too much like it was a haphazard collection of quests with no real plot or goal to work towards. I forgot half-way through Act 1 why I was doing all these odd jobs for! Unlike in Origins (a game I absolutely loved), there was no real looming evil threat or ultimate goal, and I really felt like I was just grinding like in an MMO.

While there have been some definite cool moments, the companions were fun and interesting, though they had less conversations I found, and I never thought it was an "Alistair, me, Morrigan, Leliana and nobody else ever" sort of thing. Merrill (the Welsh Elf lady who joins your party) is adorable.

So, all in all, the gameplay plusses and the plot let-downs made it all balance out in my books.

Elector, that's a spot-on review.

Kanluwen, the chap in question plastered his own information around the net. All the "twit" in question had to do was assemble the results of a few google searches. I agree that he was probably aiming for a "gotcha moment" but that's hardly an internet phenomenon. Please cf. newspapers and television. In a free society (in terms of market and government), "gotcha moments" sell not only in terms of $$$ but also as a form of partiotism. You might even say it's constitutional, if you give separation of powers some reflection.

Manchu wrote:Elector, that's a spot-on review.

Kanluwen, the chap in question plastered his own information around the net. All the "twit" in question had to do was assemble the results of a few google searches. I agree that he was probably aiming for a "gotcha moment" but that's hardly an internet phenomenon. Please cf. newspapers and television. In a free society (in terms of market and government), "gotcha moments" sell not only in terms of $$$ but also as a form of partiotism. You might even say it's constitutional, if you give separation of powers some reflection.

I googled the guy. I didn't get anywhere near the same information that the poster did.

So I'm calling BS. And I'm also saying that can we not fething act as if it's some kind of 'heroic' act like Baron's trying to paint it to be?

This isn't 4chan. Have some fething respect for other people's privacy and leave the drama crap there.

Kanluwen wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
Kan, this is the internet. Without evidence, most people would have claimed he was a liar and that there was no proof that anything was taking place. So, the guy did the logical thing, and created a record that could be examined and varified. And, in all honesty, it's good that he did, because this means that there is evidence that can be acted on.

Bullgak.

Bull, bull, bull, bull, bull.

You're gonna tell me, on Dakka, of all places, that 'pics or it didn't happen' isn't how the internet works?

Kanluwen wrote:
But no. He wanted drama. He posted it all over the Internet and came out like he's some kind of 'hero' for stalking someone.

But hey, this is the Internet. Apparently it's acceptable to plaster people's personal information all over the place.

Kan, people plaster it all over the internet themselves. Otherwise Google would be illegal.

AS far as the drama quoteint, can't say, never met him. Accusations that Bioware was rallying people to try and change the Metacritic rating had been flying for hours at the point that this came out, maybe he want to prove they were true? It was all over at least one of the Russian bioware fansites. And, look, since he brought the information forward, MORE bioware employees are being outted for it.

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm sorry, since when is Metacritic a "blogger" site?
It's not. It's user reviews.

The "FTC Publishing Guidelines" have no hold over Metacritics, and to assume that they do is ridiculous.

It does have a hold over the actions of Bioware/EA and it's employees, as a publicly traded company. By posting there in this manner, this Bioware employee has broken the law. It also violates SEC rules regarding reviews.

I used to enforce some of these, Kan, as a government auditor and later when I worked for a casino gaming company internally enforcing things like this. We fired people all the time for this sort of violation.

Kanluwen wrote:
I don't give a flying feth that he "linked three sites together containing stuff the person being looked into had posted themselves".
He posted information,publicly, that otherwise would not have been tied together.

Your example is flawed and it's a half-assed justification for what I like to call the "4chan syndrome". People who feel they've been 'wronged' on the Internet somehow think it's acceptable that they put their perceived "abuser's" information out there for everyone to see.

Kan, if you don't want people to know things about you on the internet, don't put them on the internet. It's that simple. Is publicly divulging that information wrong? Under *normal* circumstances, i would agree. However, in this case, as it involves the commission of a crime, and one that has serious implications for the customer base, the public has a right to know.

Kanluwen wrote:
I googled the guy. I didn't get anywhere near the same information that the poster did.

So I'm calling BS. And I'm also saying that can we not fething act as if it's some kind of 'heroic' act like Baron's trying to paint it to be?

This isn't 4chan. Have some fething respect for other people's privacy and leave the drama crap there.

Kan, as quite a few sites have mentioned, several sites did the same searches this guy did and got the same results. I did it myself yesterday and got the same result. I would not be surprised if information has started being pulled since this broke. Hell, EA's help site underwent five revisions to the section on 'Does Dragon Age 2 contain securom?' yesterday.







EDIT: I'll add that without these events, EA would never have confirmed that this is, in fact, their policy. From Kotaku: "Of course the people who make the game vote for their own game," a senior PR manager said. "That's how it works in the Oscars, that's how it works in the Grammy's and why I'm betting that Barack Obama voted for himself in the last election."

So Manchu, I take it that despite a valiant resistance you bought DA2 anyways but like it better than DA:O?

Would it be wise to compare the differences in DA:O AND DA2 to the differences between ME to ME2?

Same sort of processes I guess.

With the streamlining and such?
If this comparison makes sense.

I agree with Kanluwen on all fronts.

Yes, VikingScott, it seems the process Bioware did with ME1 & ME2 was profitable, so they did the same with Dragon Age. I would think that this is very much comparable.

I'm pretty sure the majority of people think that DA2 is a vast improvement over DA:O.

I've noticed that the reason that games that do this kind of thing, that change a lot from their predecessor, get a lot of negative reviews, but not a lot of positive reviews, despite that on any site other than a review site, the response is generally positive.

It seems like those that are unsatisfied think they're opinion means something more than someone who does like it, so they go on sites and give games low scores so they can feel like a Intarwebz Crusader.

Edit: I wanted to post this to just show some of my thoughts of the "reviews"

Whole Article: http://www.gameinformer.com/games/dragon_age_ii/b/pc/archive/2011/03/08/dragon-age-ii-pc-review-a-port-caught-in-the-middle.aspx

GameInformer wrote:On all platforms, Dragon Age II caters to an audience that didn’t connect with Origins, while alienating those who did. This may result in a better console experience, but considering that Dragon Age: Origins was a love letter to old-school PC RPGs, BioWare’s neglect of the sequel’s PC release is tragic. I appreciate the technical refinements, but improving the polish doesn’t do much good when the basics still need work.

Like, seriously, reviewers are so fething dramatic when a game doesn't meet their pinpoint expectations. Its tragic? Its a fething game, not the loss of a family member. The flaws of the PC version are very, very much exaggerated, its unbelievable. I've completed DA2 once, and am playing a second time to try and see what some of these guys are saying (including doing all the side quests) and I just don't find it.

With its third-person camera and button-mashing attacks, the combat system in Dragon Age II is designed with a controller in mind, but BioWare doesn’t offer native gamepad support, restricting you to mouse-and-keyboard controls on PC. This approach may have worked well in Origins, but it doesn’t transition well to the new system. Movement feels clumsy, and pausing to readjust the camera and select targets for your abilities just muddles the flow of combat.

Though, I would like Gamepad support so I could see if what they say is true, I can comment on the PC. Movement is far from clumsy, its the same as Origins, and you don't "pause to readjust the camera" anymore then you did in Origins.

These reviewers are pathetic, and I wonder if they have even completed the game yet.

So someone is being dramatic when they find a release 'tragic'? I thought the last Rambo movie was a tragedy (more for Stallone than Rambo), and I don't think it's being dramatic to say that. I actually like that paragraph from GI's review. It's spot on and states upfront something a lot of people feel. I don't agree with everything in the review, I didn't have movement problems, and I agree he's wrong about the camera, but you can tell the reviewer is really venting his frustrations. DA2 did away with many subtle details from the first some people liked. It's not pathetic to be upset about it.

He makes it sound like the game is a failure because of it though.

He is wrong on so many things about the game, that I don't think he even played the game all the way through.

Interweb reviews should be ignored, pretty much completely. They're all written by Bobby Nerdguys who have too much time on their hands and think their video game blog makes them important.

Download the demo, if you like the demo, you'll prolly like the game. If you buy the game and hate it, sell it on ebay while it's still worth something. Problem solved

VikingScott wrote:Would it be wise to compare the differences in DA:O AND DA2 to the differences between ME to ME2?

Same sort of processes I guess.

With the streamlining and such?
If this comparison makes sense.

I dunno, in Mass Effect 2, the gameplay was altered rastically (for the better IMHO, but not everyone feels that way), but you still had the ultimate goal, the Collectors and the Reapers were still out there and you had to stop them. It made for an awesome sequel where you prepared for a suicide mission you might not come back from.

DA2, on the other hand, has no Reaper-lookalike. You barely fight the darkspawn, so I'd say "random highwaymen" is the most commonly fought enemy. The main plot evolves so slowly that you only really realize what the main over-arching idea thread is by Act 3. Kinda late by then, like only after 24 hours of gameplay you have a (still mildly vague) idea of what you're fighting for. Plot lines and quest choices come back to bite you later, buit in some occasions it's been so long since the quest that I have no motivation to go back and help some of these people.

Not to mention the multiple enemy wavesin EVERY fight that ruin most battle plans...I'll not get into that right now.

Anywyas, I don't find the ME -> ME2 comparable to the DA:O -> DA2 transition.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:So Manchu, I take it that despite a valiant resistance you bought DA2 anyways but like it better than DA:O?

Yes and yes -- although there was little resistance. The game is very good, especially compared to its clunky predecessor. If you're on a budget and RPGs aren't really your thing, I wouldn't say it's a "must buy." Otherwise, it's very entertaining.

:: DISCLOSURE:: Neither I nor any one I am affiliated with is employed by BioWare or any other subsidiary of Electronic Arts.

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:So Manchu, I take it that despite a valiant resistance you bought DA2 anyways but like it better than DA:O?

Yes and yes -- although there was little resistance. The game is very good, especially compared to its clunky predecessor. If you're on a budget and RPGs aren't really your thing, I wouldn't say it's a "must buy." Otherwise, it's very entertaining.

:: DISCLOSURE:: Neither I nor any one I am affiliated with is employed by BioWare or any other subsidiary of Electronic Arts.

Riiight. I'll give the demo a whirl if I can put down AC Brotherhood for 5 seconds.

Necros wrote:Interweb reviews should be ignored, pretty much completely. They're all written by Bobby Nerdguys who have too much time on their hands and think their video game blog makes them important.

Reviewers in general are becoming less reliable. A lot of times inter company politics result in inaccurate scores, or in the case of the aforementioned review, personal bias can come through really easily. Honestly the only real way to figure out if you like a game is to play it and reviewers have slowly lost my faith in their ability to actually analyze a game's quality. General players have always been distracted from flaws by flashiness, but now it seems reviewers are pretty easily distracted too. Demo's so often are tailor made to include the best parts of a game, and aren't enough to show how bad they may or may not be. The DA2 demo won't reveal the horrible story line flaws in the game for example.

I'd say rent it, but you can't rent PC games If you have a 360 or a PS3 try it on that. But then, why get it on PC afterwards

Elector wrote:

VikingScott wrote:Would it be wise to compare the differences in DA:O AND DA2 to the differences between ME to ME2?

Same sort of processes I guess.

With the streamlining and such?
If this comparison makes sense.

I dunno, in Mass Effect 2, the gameplay was altered rastically (for the better IMHO, but not everyone feels that way), but you still had the ultimate goal, the Collectors and the Reapers were still out there and you had to stop them. It made for an awesome sequel where you prepared for a suicide mission you might not come back from.

DA2, on the other hand, has no Reaper-lookalike. You barely fight the darkspawn, so I'd say "random highwaymen" is the most commonly fought enemy. The main plot evolves so slowly that you only really realize what the main over-arching idea thread is by Act 3. Kinda late by then, like only after 24 hours of gameplay you have a (still mildly vague) idea of what you're fighting for. Plot lines and quest choices come back to bite you later, buit in some occasions it's been so long since the quest that I have no motivation to go back and help some of these people.

Not to mention the multiple enemy wavesin EVERY fight that ruin most battle plans...I'll not get into that right now.

Anywyas, I don't find the ME -> ME2 comparable to the DA:O -> DA2 transition.

Comparisons can be drawn, but not really direct comparisons. Both games saw their sequels streamlined to appeal to a wider audience, but in the process alienate what is probably a minority of players who really really (really) loved the games the way they were. Both saw improved characterization, simplified inventory, and a storyline that is very vague and really amounts to a collection of side quests (I do agree that ME2 at least had the overarching collector reaper threat to provide the story with some direction). The transitions have a lot in common.

^ Exactly what I was trying to say, sorry if I appeared otherwise.

I'd, really, really love to hear these "storyline flaws"

There is a threat at the start that you start hearing of once you get to Kirkwall, and its the Qunari. No, they don't go up and say "Yeah, the Qunari are gonna kill us, we gotta stop them", they don't know yet.

After you get off your ass and get rich from the Expedition, then you really start focusing on the threats. Anders cries about the Templars and Mages, and if you payed attention at all, then you would realize that something is going to happen with them, since many, many quests involve them throughout the game even before Act III.

So, there isn't a real looming threat until Act II, and there doesn't need to be at the start. It would have been boring if they would have just said "Yeah, darkspawn are attacking kirkwall for unknown reasons again. Looks like there is another Architect"

Just because there isn't a clear goal besides survive at the start of the game, doesn't mean its a storyline flaw.

I found that while there were a LOT of side quests during Act I, until you got the 50 gold you never had the main quests. Acts II and III were somewhat sharpwer in their goal, you still feel like the main plot advancements are rather dis-connected while the side quests pop out of the woodwork.

The Anders part I just figured was a character thing, that didn't really have a connection to the story (what if you didn't do the Justice quest I wonder? how would it all end?)

So, while it does come together, it's rather subtle, almost too subtle in its plot weaving. I loved how your decisions in some quests carried over in significance (the Lily-killler, Thrask etc) and drastically affect your play-through, but I would have preferred a great goal from the beginning to anchor my motivation and remind why I should care what happens to the people and the city.

Karon wrote:I'd, really, really love to hear these "storyline flaws"

I don't want to go into detail, as regardless of the quality, the ending was at least entertaining, and I'd rather not tempt anyone by putting in spoilers. YOu can find the flaws easily enough based on information in the Codex in DAO, and recognize quickly that the outcome of events in DA2 make very little sense. That and the storyline itself is relatively weak. Elector put his/her finger on it when saying that the story line lacks direction.

There is a threat at the start that you start hearing of once you get to Kirkwall, and its the Qunari. No, they don't go up and say "Yeah, the Qunari are gonna kill us, we gotta stop them", they don't know yet.

EDIT:

Just because there isn't a clear goal besides survive at the start of the game, doesn't mean its a storyline flaw.

The story line's primary flaw is weak structure and as Elector said, a lack of direction. It actually could have been really interesting if it had remained more focused on the events towards the end of the game, but instead, you spend the first ten to fourteen hours running errands to do a single forty minute story quest, followed by another three to four hours of errands and some story line quests unrelated to the story line of Act 1.

This saddens me greatly. I can agree with people who say Bioware is repetitive in their story lines, but at least Bioware was a master of story structure, progression, and development. DA2 lacks the quality I like in their past games. The story is, weak. They did a great job of keeping the suspense, keeping us guessing, but in the end, the story just doesn't feel very fulfilling, and it's outcome makes no sense when one examines Bioware's own lore from DAO.

You don't want to go into detail, because you don't want to tempt people with spoilers? Lol

The storyline is subtle, I agree, and possibly too subtle. Indeed, I felt betrayed at the end because I wasn't sure exactly what I was doing, but I thought about it a bit and you can barely call the side quests "side" quests. They are integral to do so you can understand what is going on a bit more around the city as a whole, and not feel like the game was too short.

The Qunari are just another variable. They are an alien race that inhabits the city to get this Relic, which ties in with Isabela.

All I hear you saying is "when you examine the lore" or "this doesn't make sense when you read the codex", etc.

Give me direct examples. The game isn't perfect, but its definitely one of the best games I've played in its genre since DA:O.

Because the story lacks direction doesn't mean it is flawed, I'll repeat. Its subtle, possibly too subtle, but its still there and you have to do "side" quests to fully understand it, as I am starting to realize as I go through again and complete every single quest I come across.

Edti: You're saying the Nazi Templars are right? That because that some mages happen to focus on blood magic out of survival, or that they killed a guy with magic, means all of them should be gotten rid of or imprisoned?

Some Templars are unjust, some force Tranquility on Mages for no reason besides he is paranoid prick. Many children in Afganistan choose to join a terrorist organization so they can provide for themselves or their family. They are branded as Terrorists for trying to survive in their unique situation.

So if a couple of guys who decide to blow up a building and kill thousands of people in the United States are Muslim, then all Muslims are terrorists?

Karon wrote:You don't want to go into detail, because you don't want to tempt people with spoilers? Lol

Hey, as much as I hate the story, a certain event towards the end of the game is still epic. The shock value delivered is awesome. Possibly because the story up to that point had been so amazingly subtle that something interesting finally happening is a complete head explosion.

All I hear you saying is "when you examine the lore" or "this doesn't make sense when you read the codex", etc.

Examine the outcome of events in DA2. Then, look at what we now about the national and political structures of the various nations of Thedas (as well as possible outcomes for DAO). Doing this is especially easy, because Thedas mirrors medieval Europe. The world on the brink of war makes no sense. That anyone wants Hawke to fix the problem makes even less sense.

I'll send you a full PM on it if you really want me to, but I has rules and one of them is not spoil the ending of anything for a least two years

Edti: You're saying the Nazi Templars are right? That because that some mages happen to focus on blood magic out of survival, or that they killed a guy with magic, means all of them should be gotten rid of or imprisoned?

It's not just some. Half of the side quests in the game involve mages, and almost all of them (and by almost I mean all but 2) end with blood magic and Tevinter Magisters doing horrible things. The games does little to show that the Templar's goal of controlling mages and preventing them from hurting people is flawed. Even the supposedly innocent mages you're suppose to be sympathizing with end up doing what every other mage that isn't you or your sister have been doing. EDIT: And the not all muslims are terrorists analogy can be applied as equally to Templars as it can be to the mages.

I'd love the full PM.

The reason there is so many Blood Mages in Kirkwall is because Mages are so heavily persecuted, and the Templars are so powerful. If they weren't such a big influence, and the power was balanced, there wouldn't be any need to resort to Blood Magic.

LordofHats wrote:
It's not just some. Half of the side quests in the game involve mages, and almost all of them (and by almost I mean all but 2) end with blood magic and Tevinter Magisters doing horrible things. The games does little to show that the Templar's goal of controlling mages and preventing them from hurting people is flawed. Even the supposedly innocent mages you're suppose to be sympathizing with end up doing what every other mage that isn't you or your sister have been doing. EDIT: And the not all muslims are terrorists analogy can be applied as equally to Templars as it can be to the mages.

Exactly, I felt a mild obligation to side with the mages while playing a mage, but they made it really hard by the end to not go all Templar all the time thanks to the mother incident and how While the only real Templar I disliked was the Tranquil Solution one, there were even some decent ones that I liked, such as Thrask.

I get the "don't punish the many for the crimes of the one" that's being argued, but when every mage save 3 or 4 is a blood mage you generally start blaming the many. And after Anders' actions....well, I started getting angry at the mages too.

When I say the plot is flawed, I am in no way saying it's a bad game, I just felt it's disappointments balanced the growth in gameplay to make neither a ZOMG AWESOME GAME like Origins, nor did it make it a bad game. I finished it earlier today, and I had aloads of fun, but by the end I was tired of the aimlessness.

Finally, Hawke and his siblings had its own plot issue. You barely knew them for more than 10 minutes of gameplay, and your supposed to feel really bad about it. We don't even get to speak to them before it happens! My motivation shouldn't need prodding to wake up, and that was its big fault.

You're saying that if you were being persecuted and being killed for no reason besides of how you were born, you wouldn't resort to Blood Magic? (Think Holocaust, but the Jews can't defend themselves, and the Nazi's are generally supported)

These mages have no choice in the matter. Its either be killed or defend themselves. Its just the public doesn't like Blood Magic because it does summon demons to power it.

Never, ever would I side with the Templars. I felt Anders was justified in what he did, there needed to be a catalyst event to set this off. It was going to happen sooner or later, and you really can't reason with the Templars at this point.

Karon wrote:You're saying that if you were being persecuted and being killed for no reason besides of how you were born, you wouldn't resort to Blood Magic? (Think Holocaust, but the Jews can't defend themselves, and the Nazi's are generally supported)

These mages have no choice in the matter. Its either be killed or defend themselves. Its just the public doesn't like Blood Magic because it does summon demons to power it.

They have plenty of choice. They don't need blood magic to be powerful. Resorting to blood magic only makes them look guilty, doesn't help their case, and continually proves the Templars right. I'm not saying I like the Templars. But DA2 shows a rather large discrepancy in the number of Mages who go too far (nearly all of them) contrasted to the number of Templars who go to far (only 1 really). I still sided with the Mages, but this conflict was more well balanced in DAO, where most of the mages were good, and the Templars were harsh but understandably so. In DA2, the Templars are much same, but all the mages keep turning to the dark side

I'll get to work on that PM.

I sided with the Mages because I understood the Mages' plights sand wouldn't wish their near-slavery on anyone (I wanted the Templars and Mages to work together), but that doesn't mean I wasn't personally ticked off by every mage I meet attacking me or doing horrible things to me, my family or people I am mildly associated with.

As a way to explain my feelings about this, please watch 0:53 to 2:10 of http://www.urealms.com/content.php?157.

EDIT: @LordofHats, send me that PM while your at it, I'm intrigued.

I got this yesterday, and have played a few hours into it so far between classes.

Quite enjoying it, although I've been tempted to start again so I can have a balanced party with my favourite charcters.

The questing to achieve the sum to enter the Deep Roads does seem to not show a great bad guy, but is rather comparable to retrieving the money to get to Spellhold in BG2. The only major difference is the enemy doesn't seem to be as big, nasty and continually overshadowing.

I haven't played it yet.

I finally finished it last night. I made a point to try and do as many quests as I could, in the end it took me around 50 hours. Now I can finally get some of my life back and start painting models again I did DA:O, ME2 and DA2 back to back... I need a break

I agree they didn't do a good job leading up to the climax of the story.. it really felt like 3 different stories instead of one big one.

Necros -- you're free til November 11. Paint, my friend, and visit with you family. After 11/11/11, people may not see you for a while.

ME3?