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I'd rather take a 150 point unit of purifiers into combat than Crow, every single time. If you're going to take him in a Purifier list, take him and isolate him. If he ends up being useful, that's great, but don't try to make him useful, because he generally won't be unless you sacrifice a lot to make him that way.

I think you're overlooking the fact that in a purifier list, he's still an asset.

If you use stormravens to launch an assault, with Crowe in one and a Librarian + Purifiers in the other, the Librarian can summon the Purifiers 'displaced' from their transport by Crowe on the next turn.

That way Crowe is not 150 pts spent merely to get Purifiers as Troops, but a major or minor (depending on tour point of view) headache for your opponent for a turn or two also, as he can assault into one of their key units direct from his stormraven transport. Even if he does not recoup his points (moot and dependent upon who he's fighting), it's better to get him involved than have him sit idle in the rear. and it's better to have him charge than be charge - hence he should be in the first wave.

In all honesty, I think he's one of the more useful unique characters in the GK Codex - people just struggle with the 'sword problem' and the fact he's not an IC.

Treat him as a rather odd unit and he has some merit aside from his 'unlocking Purifiers' ability.

But he's only worth taking (but essential if you are) if you are going to base your army around Purifiers, otherwise I think he is a waste. But he shouldn't be the sole HQ.

sourclams wrote:
What, in the wording of Cleansing Flame, makes you think the psy powers would be anything but simultaneous?

All of it, since psychic powers are necessarily resolved one at a time. Pretty much like anything else.

You can't pause during one instance of Cleansing Flame and say "hold on, before you take your saves I want to do something else."

DarknessEternal wrote:

sourclams wrote:
What, in the wording of Cleansing Flame, makes you think the psy powers would be anything but simultaneous?

All of it, since psychic powers are necessarily resolved one at a time. Pretty much like anything else.

You can't pause during one instance of Cleansing Flame and say "hold on, before you take your saves I want to do something else."

Oh, you mean like multiple flamer/blast templates--oh wait. Or shooting attacks--oh wait. Or attacks at the same initiative value--oh wait.

In short, the way that everything else works suggests that the opposite of that is true.

Artemo wrote:I think you're overlooking the fact that in a purifier list, he's still an asset.

If you use stormravens to launch an assault, with Crowe in one and a Librarian + Purifiers in the other, the Librarian can summon the Purifiers 'displaced' from their transport by Crowe on the next turn.

That way Crowe is not 150 pts spent merely to get Purifiers as Troops, but a major or minor (depending on tour point of view) headache for your opponent for a turn or two also, as he can assault into one of their key units direct from his stormraven transport. Even if he does not recoup his points (moot and dependent upon who he's fighting), it's better to get him involved than have him sit idle in the rear. and it's better to have him charge than be charge - hence he should be in the first wave.

In all honesty, I think he's one of the more useful unique characters in the GK Codex - people just struggle with the 'sword problem' and the fact he's not an IC.

Treat him as a rather odd unit and he has some merit aside from his 'unlocking Purifiers' ability.

But he's only worth taking (but essential if you are) if you are going to base your army around Purifiers, otherwise I think he is a waste. But he shouldn't be the sole HQ.

Your spending 205+ points for a transport for a bad CC character to assault out of? You advocate running 2 HQs (both 150 or more points) in a army who's basic guy is 20? Sorry, Crowe + Librarian + 2 storm ravens is already over 700 pts. What the heck does the rest of the army look like? 2 units of purifiers and not much else?

The problem with Crowe is he he is both the Purifier special character, and the brotherhood champion. Brotherhood champions have awful rules for the most part, with the perfect warrior being nice in theory, bad on the table. Normal Champions get to at least confer reroll to hit on the squad he is joined to. Crowe can't join squads, and confers reroll to enemies. He also lacks a force weapon, which is only a small penalty considering that he has other useful powers.

How I would use him? Hide him in reserve, when he comes in there might be some enemies near your deployment zone by then. He can hop into some empty transport, like a razorback or chimera purchased for a unit that doesn't need it, and act as a fairly decent counter strike unit against weakened or weak units.

That being said, I don't think your really need him in a list, purifiers as troops IMHO is most useful if you want to use the elite slots for other things (strike squads are perfectly fine, and have their advantages). Since only ven dreads or assassins really appeal to me in elites (and I wouldn't run more than 1 assassin) I only see the utility if you are taking dreadknights, land raiders, or purgation squads, and still want riffleman dreads + purifiers.

sourclams wrote:
Oh, you mean like multiple flamer/blast templates--oh wait. Or shooting attacks--oh wait. Or attacks at the same initiative value--oh wait.

Those are all from the same unit, except for assaults. 2 Cleansing Flames from 2 units of Purifiers are not.

Using it like that would be like shooting a flamer from one unit, calculating hits, then shooting a flamer from another unit, calculate hits, then roll saves. This is expressly against the rules.

Assault rules tell us what happens in Initiative order, so that doesn't apply either.

So the real distinction is whether 'before any blows are struck' is simultaneous (effective I11), or not.

It's less like shooting a flamer from one unit, calculating hits/wounds, rinse repeat, and more like two lash sorcerors in the same unit attempting to lash the same target.

FAQ-worthy to say the least, but I still stand by normal combat conventions and other 'at the same time' abilities allowing multiple cleansing flames to do a giant god-nuke at meta-I11.

ph34r wrote:He also has terrible rules.

don't forget the static boring model

IMHO he is a one man Tarpit... a re-rollable 2+/4++ save that can fight at I11 with cleansing flame seems kinda cool...

Also, throwing Ghazzl at him is risky because if he saves the cleansing flame, Ghazz can become in instant casualty. (sadly this term will probably becoming more common)

Stella Cadente wrote:

ph34r wrote:He also has terrible rules.

don't forget the static boring model

I do agree that he could have been more epic.


I want someone to do a diarama of Crowe slicing a Bloodthirsters head clean off!!!

QuietOrkmi wrote:
Also, throwing Ghazzl at him is risky because if he saves the cleansing flame, Ghazz can become in instant casualty. (sadly this term will probably becoming more common)

How that, Ghazz is EW and not a Deamon/Psyker. The only way Crowe can take him out in one turn is Charging with Repier Strike, rolling a 3, hitting with all 4 attacks as rending, and thats only if Ghazz didn't use Prophet of the Waaagh!!!, or hoping you haven't use a Psy power that turn like Cleansing Flame or you can't use Heroic Sacrifice(and you still need base to base).

Ghaz would be an idiot to use his 2++ save just to kill Crowe.


afterwards, he is defensless against all those Power Weapons he willl be taking.

Grey Templar wrote:Ghaz would be an idiot to use his 2++ save just to kill Crowe.


afterwards, he is defensless against all those Power Weapons he willl be taking.

Wait the Blade of Antwyr is a PW were dose it say that? He rends on 4+ he dosen't have a PW. So Crowe hits with 4 attacks all must hit and wound or Crowe dies becouse he gave up reolling save for the chance to hit.

I meant the purifiers who will be all over him after he smashes Crowe.

and the blade of Antwyr might as well be a power weapon as Crowe won't be wounding much on better then a 4+ anyway.

Grey Templar wrote:I meant the purifiers who will be all over him after he smashes Crowe.

and the blade of Antwyr might as well be a power weapon as Crowe won't be wounding much on better then a 4+ anyway.

While thats true that isn't what the guy I quoted was saying. I was pointins out that assaults vs. EW PW IDing models is a bad idea for Crowe. Unless of coruse you have no more use for him, becouse the only way Crowe has to deal with them is by dieing.

Crowe is a tarpit model that can actually kill the things he is tarpitting.


Now, Ghaz is a bad example of a counter because Ghaz pretty much smashes anything.


Crowe is for tying that boy mob up for a couple turns while the rest of the purifiers obliterate the ork army.

Grey Templar wrote:Crowe is a tarpit model that can actually kill the things he is tarpitting.


Now, Ghaz is a bad example of a counter because Ghaz pretty much smashes anything.


Crowe is for tying that boy mob up for a couple turns while the rest of the purifiers obliterate the ork army.

I know see my first post pg1. I point out his major flaws then say how good he is as a tarpit. But, when people give plan bad advice about his use I have to say something. I you know you weakness your less like to suffer becouse of it. I plan on Crowe and Coteaz as my army, Crowe not only for the Purifier but becouse the challange of playing him. So I want Crowe played a lot and kicking ass, that way when people go "Haha, he gives FC and reroll to hit to guys charging him, he sucks", then after he stomps a whole units face in we get to laugh at them.

...yeah... that won't happen. He'll either take a Lascannon to the face early on, or he'll be easily killed off by a unit like Assault Terminators, praying on his 2/3rd chance to even do any damage.

if he dies early on it really doesn't matter.

he's pretty cheap and has already served his purpose

*looks at 50 purifiers on table

Well, unless it's a KP game. Then he's just a free KP.

Of course, with all those purifiers on the table you shouldn't have to worry too much.

But the issue is when you try to actually make him useful. Because most of the time, he really isn't.

Fafnir wrote:...yeah... that won't happen. He'll either take a Lascannon to the face early on, or he'll be easily killed off by a unit like Assault Terminators, praying on his 2/3rd chance to even do any damage.

Only if there nothing on the table, cover and no LOS make it harder. Go ahead and kill him its wont be easy, and its not like the rest of my army will be in your face by that time. 150 point that could do nothing or get shot to hell if caught in the open or the rest of army coming for you that WILL wreak you, I will be happy for them to foucs on Crowe. Then if they don't go for Crowe, well.......

He's everything that's wrong with the new Grey Knights.

Terrible idea (GK wouldn't even set foot on a table with an Inquisitor who used a daemonhost last Codex - but now they're carrying a daemonsword around with them!?)

Childlike one-upmanship fluff (so, like, he's this super bad-ass hero from a super bad-ass Chapter of super bad-ass Space Marines which are, like, super bad-ass supermen. Oh and he has a magic sword, or something...)

Awful rules (he's on his own, he can be insta-gibbed, anyone charging him can knobble him and multi-assault to rip through more of your army).

He's essentially why I've given up on my Grey Knights/Daemonhunters army for good.

What I was talking about was you have to think before assaulting him with powerful IC such as Ghazghkull because he can withhold his cleansing flame, switch to re-reoll failed armor saves and invulnerable, then when Ghaz kills Crowe, He uses the psychic power to remove Ghaz a casualty...

Remove as a casualty is not Instant death as far as I know... (If it is then great but if not...)

You guys do know that he can switch to the stance where he re-rolls his saves and lets the cleansing flame be his Combat resolution...

Noir wrote:

QuietOrkmi wrote:
Also, throwing Ghazzl at him is risky because if he saves the cleansing flame, Ghazz can become in instant casualty. (sadly this term will probably becoming more common)

How that, Ghazz is EW and not a Deamon/Psyker. The only way Crowe can take him out in one turn is Charging with Repier Strike, rolling a 3, hitting with all 4 attacks as rending, and thats only if Ghazz didn't use Prophet of the Waaagh!!!, or hoping you haven't use a Psy power that turn like Cleansing Flame or you can't use Heroic Sacrifice(and you still need base to base).

If you already knew about Heroic Sacrifice, why did you sound so indignantly shocked that Crow can one-shot Ghazkgull?

Just for a little more info incase anyone missed it crowe can re-roll all hits and wounds since he has titans herald and perfect warrior

Is that on top of being able to hit everyone in combat with him if he does not go "re-roll saves"?

QuietOrkmi wrote:Is that on top of being able to hit everyone in combat with him if he does not go "re-roll saves"?

im pretty sure he always get its no matter what stance he chooses but it doesn't effect his psychic powers unfortunately.

Alphacerberus wrote:Just for a little more info incase anyone missed it crowe can re-roll all hits and wounds since he has titans herald and perfect warrior

He doesn't have Anointed Blade, so no rerolls for wounds.

Grey Templar wrote:if he dies early on it really doesn't matter.

he's pretty cheap and has already served his purpose

*looks at 50 purifiers on table

Pretty much.

He has uses besides the purifiers. He is good against horde units. He is good to send in against a wounded MC. He is a good assassin to send up against very expensive CC monsters like Meph, Logan, or Ghaz. The only really good counter at a really good point cost to use against Crowe is a single lascannon to the face as he is T4 with no IC or EW. Splat, deaded, brought the right tool for the right job. If Crowe does eat a lascannon to the face and dies a very inglorious death it brings us back to point #1: He main purpose is to put mass purifiers as troops on the table.

Which he does very well. But after that, he's a write-off.