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Based on this thread, I re-purchased Army Builder the night before 'Ard Boyz and used the tournament format to print my list. I don't think it actually lists stats, but it gives all the information needed (all the upgrades with their costs broken out) and was fantastic.

Thanks for all the feedback, Dakka!

ARmy Builder must be a love hate thing...

I have seen well dont excell spreadsheets, and I have seen crappy ones. The really well done ones are on par with army builder imo....

I like army builder because it has all the stats laid out for me just in case I need a quick reference.

TimmyMWD wrote:BOLS put up this gem today about this very question: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/04/40k-tournament-etiquette-meta-tactics.html

I love the part where he says guys like me, who use excel, are deliberately trying to screw over other players:

If someone at a tournament is not showing you his full list with stats, abilities and descriptions he is intentionally trying to hide something from you. There will be some exceptions to this but be on the look out. If you see this happening you’re about to have a game with someone who will likely trying to take advantage of you.

Great article, now I feel like I'm some sort of nefarious criminal mastermind for not retyping my entire codex onto each army list, or not purchasing a secondary software not produced by games workshop which apparently this author has decided is the widely accepted standard everyone should conform to.

Oh BOLS...

Wow. That's some dumb stuff.

I wonder if he wrote it completely independently, or if he read this thread and then decided to twist and misrepresent the honest difference of opinion to create controversy.

The funny thing is that in the comments people keep mentioning "army builder" type lists- when it's army builder itself that has the option to print out "tournament" format, which is just the unit names, upgrades, and costs.

It makes sense to have a copy on hand with full statistics, but I personally hate getting handed those monstrosities at tournaments, as yakface expressed pretty well on the last page.

Give me a nice summary of your list, and I'll be happy... giving me 3 pages of stats when I just want to know what's in your army and what upgrades it has isn't what I'm looking for.

TimmyMWD wrote:BOLS put up this gem today about this very question: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/04/40k-tournament-etiquette-meta-tactics.html

I love the part where he says guys like me, who use excel, are deliberately trying to screw over other players:

If someone at a tournament is not showing you his full list with stats, abilities and descriptions he is intentionally trying to hide something from you. There will be some exceptions to this but be on the look out. If you see this happening you’re about to have a game with someone who will likely trying to take advantage of you.

Wow, what a terrible message. I love how people making blog posts seem to constantly be looking for the next big 'trend' in cheating that they want you to look out for. This is the same line of reasoning that some people use to say that Apocalypse was a 'huge failure' because players in their local area don't play it. The reality is, it is very, very difficult to know what, if any 'trends' are happening, especially considering that 40K gaming is a global community that any one person, at best, can only experience a very small portion of.

If someone is intentionally not using Army Builder to confuse new players, then that's one guy doing that. Not using Army Builder cannot possibly be a general tactic that people are using because there are many, many gamers out there (like myself) who have never, ever used army builder.

Like I've said before in this thread, as a 20 year veteran of 40K, and someone who has been playing in tournaments since 2000, I can honestly say that full Army Builder lists are more disorienting than helpful to me...and if I feel that way, then I know many if not all new gamers could also find that sort of information overload equally as disorienting.

So yes, I must be a dirty newb-stomping TFG because I use excel to make my lists. Never mind the fact that I always ask my opponent how familiar they are with the codex I'm using and then I try to say a quick summary of what each rule means when I'm deploying the unit in question.


And for the record here is what my super-deceptive army lists look like:

Mannahnin wrote:Wow. That's some dumb stuff.

I wonder if he wrote it completely independently, or if he read this thread and then decided to twist and misrepresent the honest difference of opinion to create controversy.

No doubt. Long ago, I used to wonder why every one didn't use AB.

Now, I honestly think it would be easier to cheat using Army Builder than a printed Excel file (Manipulation of data files, Army Builder's busy presentation). Most times army lists creep into 2-3 sheets. It's almost information overload when you walk up to a table and they give you an Army Builder Codex that has a sheet telling you what a bolt-gun stat is, composition, how much the miniatures weigh, etc. Articles like the BOLS editorial likely makes it easier for those whom would cheat like that---as the more credence you give AB (It's always right!)---the less players will ever doubt it could be wrong. And it might just be a honest mistake by the data files authors (As they volunteer to do it!).

I use Army Builder for two reasons;

1. I'm too lazy to write an proper Excel file so I could tinker with army lists
2. Given that---it's excellent at tinkering with army lists to match points

I don't expect anyone else to shell out 40 bucks because I'm lazy---and the only thing I suspect when I see a non AB file is that they're more frugal than I am.

AgeOfEgos wrote:and the only thing I suspect when I see a non AB file is that they're more frugal than I am.

That's funny because compared to you (knowing some of the stuff you've bought) I may actually be considered frugal ( ) even though I always just buy just about anything I want when it comes to 40K without really worrying about the price.

I've never picked up Army Builder because (as I've stated many times) I hate the way they format the army lists that I've gotten from people using it at tournaments and because it doesn't have a native mac version (and I used a mac).

If they had a mac version I probably would have picked it up long ago (because I was told you could turn off all that extra crap when doing print-outs anyway). Although even if I did own it, if I wasn't able to turn off that extra rules crap when printing the list I actually would not have made print-outs using AB, even if I owned the software. I would have taken the list and typed it up in excel anyway. That's because the lists I create are basically the kind of list that I want to see from my opponents...so I've always figured I should give what I would like to see.

When Army Builder was new I used it a lot for a couple of years, just because it was fun to play with.

But I always made my nice Word file army lists for tournaments, which are much more readable and attractive, let me incorporate unit names or paste in graphics if I want to get fancy, etc.

yakface wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:and the only thing I suspect when I see a non AB file is that they're more frugal than I am.

That's funny because compared to you (knowing some of the stuff you've bought) I may actually be considered frugal ( ) even though I always just buy just about anything I want when it comes to 40K without really worrying about the price.

I've never picked up Army Builder because (as I've stated many times) I hate the way they format the army lists that I've gotten from people using it at tournaments and because it doesn't have a native mac version (and I used a mac).

If they had a mac version I probably would have picked it up long ago (because I was told you could turn off all that extra crap when doing print-outs anyway). Although even if I did own it, if I wasn't able to turn off that extra rules crap when printing the list I actually would not have made print-outs using AB, even if I owned the software. I would have taken the list and typed it up in excel anyway. That's because the lists I create are basically the kind of list that I want to see from my opponents...so I've always figured I should give what I would like to see.

Well, perhaps I should have used prudent in place of frugal---as the latter may be viewed in a negative light while the former is a virtue . I say that, as I don't view anyone that bypasses AB as cheap---realizing I/they could spend time writing up an Excel file that allows me to cut/paste line items and tinker like AB---I'm just too lazy!

Do you use your Excel file to tinker with army lists? I remember back to the pen/paper days---and I honestly think I built lists differently then (Grabbing big ticket items to get close---then figuring out what accessories to add to fill points). Now it seems more that I flesh out units as I write---rather than waiting until the last. Interesting I never thought about how they affected my list building until now.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Do you use your Excel file to tinker with army lists? I remember back to the pen/paper days---and I honestly think I built lists differently then (Grabbing big ticket items to get close---then figuring out what accessories to add to fill points). Now it seems more that I flesh out units as I write---rather than waiting until the last. Interesting I never thought about how they affected my list building until now.

In my spreadsheets, the actual point values of each unit are actually a formula of all the different unit options added up. So if you highlighted the cell containing the total points cost of a unit you would see a formula of something like:

=6*20+10+10+5

Which would be the cost of the guy (6 pts) x 20 of them and then each of the unit options added on. So when I tinker with the unit, I simply replace or remove the cost for the option I'm changing, so this allows me to 'tinker' quite easily IMHO.

I also tend to keep my lists in a workbook, so I have a bunch of excel lists all together and that allows me to copy-and-paste common permutations of units that I used in other army builds from one sheet to another.

I definitely think it isn't quite as easy to 'tinker' as AB, but its certainly been easy enough for me over the years. With that said, if AB came out with a mac version, I think I'd probably pick it up immediately whether or not I used it to print out my tournament army lists or not.

I think I need to check out Battle Scribe as well.

yakface wrote:

I also tend to keep my lists in a workbook, so I have a bunch of excel lists all together and that allows me to copy-and-paste common permutations of units that I used in other army builds from one sheet to another.

I definitely think it isn't quite as easy to 'tinker' as AB, but its certainly been easy enough for me over the years. With that said, if AB came out with a mac version, I think I'd probably pick it up immediately whether or not I used it to print out my tournament army lists or not.

I think I need to check out Battle Scribe as well.

Yeah, that's something I've often thought of doing...but something tears at me when I think about using my Excel skills in a non-monetary reimbursed fashion =p.

I haven't heard of Battle Scribes---so I checked out the site. Coincidentally;

Apr 19, 2011
Today Games Workshop sent me a notice of infringement asking me to remove data files and links to them from the BattleScribe website and software. Basically the information included in the data files infringes on Games Workshop's (and other companies') copyrights. Although I knew this in the first place, I hoped that linking to these data files on another site would be OK. I have had to remove all data files and links to data files from the BattleScribe software and the website.

Games Workshop are well within their rights to ask me to do so, and I have no intention of getting into legal trouble over what is essentially a hobby for me. This is not entirely unexpected, although it is unfortunate. To be fair they have been very reasonable about the whole thing and have answered any questions I've had.

To this end:

All posts announcing new data file releases have been removed
No more such announcements will be made here
All links to data files or sources of data files have been removed
Forum posts have had data files and links to data files removed
Forums relating to the "Data Project" have been removed
Issue tracker has been removed from the forum
You will be unable to post data files, links to data files or links to pages containing data files in the forum. Any such posts will be edited to remove infringing content

Looked like a mobile version of AB---which would have been nice. Hopefully there will be a full fledged 40k app for the IPhone soon....

Ah, that's a bummer to hear, AoE- although as he says, not entirely unexpected.

Mannahnin wrote:When Army Builder was new I used it a lot for a couple of years, just because it was fun to play with.

But I always made my nice Word file army lists for tournaments, which are much more readable and attractive, let me incorporate unit names or paste in graphics if I want to get fancy, etc.

Looks like they listened to people like you! I believe you can do all of this in AB now

For the record, here's what my 'Ard Boyz list looked like exported from AB as a tourney text summary (it fit all on one page).

That article is full of lose. I hate AB lists, or at least the ones that people show up with at the tournaments I go to. I don't want to see a metric ton of crap information. I want to know what units you have, how many, and what upgrades. If I have a question about an upgrade I'll ask and then you can tell me.

AB lists hurt my eyes and I'm only 30....

DAH

I use battlescribe.
Editing the units are a doddle with the editor if its not quite right.

After reading this thread and that article, as well as messing around with army builder I have kind of changed how I am going to do things at tournies...

Ill print out one or two master lists on army builder, with the whole nine yards, then ill print one list for each opponent in tourny format so it easy on the eyes. Then let them know that I have a full list in case they want it.

I honestly dont have a problem with an abbreviated list, this is mostly because I know every army book fairly well, So I know the statline and what the items do... However I can see how it could be overwhelming for a new player to look at all those items with no description and have no idea what is going on.

Ill print out one or two master lists on army builder, with the whole nine yards, then ill print one list for each opponent in tourny format so it easy on the eyes. Then let them know that I have a full list in case they want it.

+1 ..issue resolved. Provide a list to all your opponents with the clean cliff note version but also have on hand the abridged version for reference.

muwhe wrote:

Ill print out one or two master lists on army builder, with the whole nine yards, then ill print one list for each opponent in tourny format so it easy on the eyes. Then let them know that I have a full list in case they want it.

+1 ..issue resolved. Provide a list to all your opponents with the clean cliff note version but also have on hand the abridged version for reference.

Issue resolved for those that wanted to buy and use army builder, that is. I still enjoy just typing my own lists, Ill cringe if the day comes that the tourney scene deems it "unacceptable" to bring a typed list, and starts pushing for everyone to buy AB.

I think that same thing can be done with just bringing a neatly typed list (aka the summary page) and your relevant codex (the full descriptions)

targetawg wrote:

muwhe wrote:

Ill print out one or two master lists on army builder, with the whole nine yards, then ill print one list for each opponent in tourny format so it easy on the eyes. Then let them know that I have a full list in case they want it.

+1 ..issue resolved. Provide a list to all your opponents with the clean cliff note version but also have on hand the abridged version for reference.

Issue resolved for those that wanted to buy and use army builder, that is. I still enjoy just typing my own lists, Ill cringe if the day comes that the tourney scene deems it "unacceptable" to bring a typed list, and starts pushing for everyone to buy AB.

I think that same thing can be done with just bringing a neatly typed list (aka the summary page) and your relevant codex (the full descriptions)

I agree, it would suck if tournies started requiring AB lists. I like excel and I'll probably always use it.

I use the gamesiplay army creator. (shameless plug, but it's the truth )

Printer output looks like: This

I type up custom word lists, cause I really dont feel like buying army builder. I type out units, stats, costs, etc everything outside of rule specifics.