Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't know if someone's already said it, but I think cavalry should inflict impact hits on the charge. Might be too complicated, but maybe inflicting an impact hit for each cavalry model with a strength value of 3 (+1 for each armour value below 4+). So, for example, a unit of 10 Dragon Princes would inflict 10 S5 impact hits (3 + 2). You might think this is slightly overpowered, but think of how fast a horse is going, in full barding! You'd be crushed, killed, or knocked out. These are just my thoughts.

That sounds beyond silly...

Beastmen minotaurs (which cost more than any knight I can think of per model) inflict only 1 impact hit per model IN BASE TO BASE at S5. They're on wider bases, so less make contact than 25mm wide cavalry bases would. Now granted, most people agree that minotaurs are overpriced but still. Models not making contact should certainly not get impact hits, and the fact that a knight is carrying a shield shouldn't matter either. I shudder to think what the typical 15 man Bret. Knight unit would do under your rules. D:

ShivanAngel wrote:Also it will NEVER happen, but I would love to see Heavy cavalry break steadfast on the turn it charges if it hits the flank or rear... Again, historically, when heavy cavalry hit the flanks of the enemies it was to finish them off.

Be careful about bringing history into the game. Historically, it was next to impossible to drive a cavalry charge home against a prepared and ranked infantry unit. I don't think anyone would be interested in having that sort of historically inspired mechanic brought into the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_(warfare)

"The shock value of a charge attack has been especially exploited in cavalry tactics, both of armored knights and lighter mounted troops of both earlier and later eras. Historians such as John Keegan have shown that when correctly prepared against (such as by improvising fortifications) and, especially, by standing firm in face of the onslaught, cavalry charges often failed against infantry, with horses refusing to gallop into the dense mass of enemies,[4] or the charging unit itself breaking up. However, when cavalry charges succeeded, it was usually due to the defending formation breaking up (often in fear) and scattering, to be hunted down by the enemy.[5]"

While cavalry could and usually was devastating against unprepared or ill-disciplined infantry, a well organized, led and trained infantry unit that was prepared for the charge was virtually impregnable against cavalry. This was true whether talking about pike units from the middle ages or musket & bayonet units of the 19th century.

steamdragon this post is about cavalry, not ogre-sized models like Minotaurs. If you think that Minotaurs should have better impact hits, make a new post (not meaning to sound rude - it's just that your example wasn't related to my post). You say that they don't all make contact with the enemy - they do. Cavalry don't charge in and stop, they charge straight through, make a wedge, cavalry are designed for blitzkrieg, not a stalemate. So, therefore, all the cavalry would collide with the enemy unit on their way through the unit, and perhaps this could be brought into the rules: maybe if their Movement is great enough from the start of the charge point to allow them to carry through the unit, they can. And yes, I'd shudder too to think what 15 Bretonnian Knights would do - the fact is, cavalry are one of the most powerful parts of an army (in real life, anyway), crushing and maiming. Obviously Spears and Halberds would have some negative effects on Cavalry (no charging bonuses? Including running through the unit). Perhaps discipline should take an effect, though - like take a Leadership test when charged by enemy cavalry, if passed, they can't charge through you as your men put themselves in the way to stop them breaking through.

As an example of pointy walled discipline, I'll mention the Thin Red Line. In 1881, at the Battle of Balaklava, the red coated 93rd British (Highland) Regiment was opposed by a highly superior Russian cavalry force. Due to their unflinching discipline and martial prowess, they were able to crush the force in a mere 2 lines thick of infantry, contrary to the usual 4 lines of infantry common when fighting cavalry. Now, as this does bring to light, 4 lines is usually enough to stop cavalry, so perhaps having 4 ranks could stop the breakthrough? Remember there are so many factors to take into account when creating new rules - I'm not saying I'm right, far from it, I'm sure that there are more factors I've forgotten - but IMO cavalry should inflict deadly impact hits on the charge, subject to any applicable special rules.

@GP: Yup, I agree. We're playing a game, and history really shouldn't have much to do with what goes on in the game.

Though, that being said, cavalry always worked better when it was in conjunction with either infantry or artillery (preferably both). I think that holds true in WHFB. Hit one side with ranked infantry to remove steadfast and hit another side with cavalry to inflict wounds. Voila; a wrecked enemy unit.

Cavalry are designed to break the enemy with a flank charge after they've already been engaged in the front by infantry.

This is how it worked in reality, fanciful accounts of frontal charges aside.

They work quite well at this in 8th, you're using them incorrectly. They're not infantry, don't use them as better faster infantry.

Saldiven wrote:Be careful about bringing history into the game. Historically, it was next to impossible to drive a cavalry charge home against a prepared and ranked infantry unit. I don't think anyone would be interested in having that sort of historically inspired mechanic brought into the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_(warfare)

"The shock value of a charge attack has been especially exploited in cavalry tactics, both of armored knights and lighter mounted troops of both earlier and later eras. Historians such as John Keegan have shown that when correctly prepared against (such as by improvising fortifications) and, especially, by standing firm in face of the onslaught, cavalry charges often failed against infantry, with horses refusing to gallop into the dense mass of enemies,[4] or the charging unit itself breaking up. However, when cavalry charges succeeded, it was usually due to the defending formation breaking up (often in fear) and scattering, to be hunted down by the enemy.[5]"

While cavalry could and usually was devastating against unprepared or ill-disciplined infantry, a well organized, led and trained infantry unit that was prepared for the charge was virtually impregnable against cavalry. This was true whether talking about pike units from the middle ages or musket & bayonet units of the 19th century.

Yes, you'll see I made almost the exact same post earlier in the thread, though I went on to point out that Warhammer, for the most part, represents well organised and trained infantry, and so frontal attacks against those types of troops shouldn't work.

The point I think you're missing though is that the above only considers cavalry assaults against the front of the enemy. Cavalry did work effectively when used to disrupt troops that were already committed to other combat. That's the role cavalry would perform and can still perform effectively in WHFB right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saldiven wrote:@GP: Yup, I agree. We're playing a game, and history really shouldn't have much to do with what goes on in the game.

Not really, no. I mean sure, when in doubt, gameplay should trump historical accuracy, but it's a mistake to assume that historical accuracy and gameplay are in conflict to the point where historical roles cannot be considered at all. Quite the opposite, game design should be looking to history to see how units were really used, and where possible looking to make units in WHFB operate like their real world counterparts.

Having cavalry operate like in certain roles like their real world counterparts would make for more interesting gameplay.