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don't know if this would solve the inherent problem that cavalry suffers in 8th but what if they were to get an additional attack (on the charge only) for each unsaved wound that they cause - similar to old unstoppable assualt from bone giant, these wounds would also generate - simulating the cavalry smashing deep into enemy ranks.

Don't know if anyone has postulated this before but I think it would make cavalry useful - but not overpowering, again

thoughts? comments?

Cheers

Papasmurf

What I want to see cavalry get (well mainly bretonnia when they get their new book).

Is one of two or three things.

Heavy cavalry should get terror on the charge, it wont do much most of the time, but back in the day cavalry charges were terrifying....

D3 impact hits per rank for heavy cavalry (barded) at str 5

Killing blow on the charge with lances

OR

Devastating charge with lances...

Personally my favorite would be devastating charge with lances...

Also it will NEVER happen, but I would love to see Heavy cavalry break steadfast on the turn it charges if it hits the flank or rear... Again, historically, when heavy cavalry hit the flanks of the enemies it was to finish them off.

PapaSmurf wrote:don't know if this would solve the inherent problem that cavalry suffers in 8th but what if they were to get an additional attack (on the charge only) for each unsaved wound that they cause - similar to old unstoppable assualt from bone giant, these wounds would also generate - simulating the cavalry smashing deep into enemy ranks.

Don't know if anyone has postulated this before but I think it would make cavalry useful - but not overpowering, again

thoughts? comments?

Cheers

Papasmurf

My chaos knights think it's a "great idea".

Edit:
My empire knight horde think it's even a better idea.
A horde of knights led by a warrior priest, would on average, do 85+ wounding hits on a WS3 T3 enemy, or 43 wounds on a WS3 T4 enemy. That doesn't count the horse attacks either.
I'm going to call it a bad idea over-all.

I think a bonus into the flank makes the most sense; stripping steadfast on the charge is what I'd shoot for.

-Matt

Hmm yes, bonuses for flank/rear attacks sound great abd realistic. Maybe allow the front rank have stomp to represent the running over? Obviously it wont work against anything bigger than infantry and most horses arent too strong

Played another game last night and again the cavalry was the poo, there is no way that a unit that cost so much should not have at least an even chance to break a similarly costed unit, especially when they charge
GRRRRRRRR and I even had help from a rear charge!
STUPID OVER COMPENSATION GW

Hawaii - but that makes sense, a horde of cavalry WOULD run over an infantry unit in such a manner, unless the infantry has pikes or something

the way it plays now its like okay knights ride up to the front of the unit and STOP! hit the guys in front but dont be pushy and try to run through them, thats just mean, come on play nice, wait what do you mean they just get to step forward and hey wait what are you doing with that .... no no no aaaahhhhh!

redikulus

cheers

Papasmurf
(Written after 300+ points of chaos knights with marauder horse in the rear lose to skinks and kroxies, this is the same group of knights that lost to 5 I REPEAT 5 swordmasters after the charge)

Wow that is some unfortunate luck. I use the Empire knights with great weapons and just stick them in to wear down a unit. Put a stubborn warriors priest and they get pretty nasty.

Hmm anyone think that a cavalry unit should use the old 7th edition charging rules? I think it would be quite worthwhile (charger gets ASF)

kenshin620 wrote:Hmm anyone think that a cavalry unit should use the old 7th edition charging rules? I think it would be quite worthwhile (charger gets ASF)

That's not bad, but the problem for cav tends to be the 2nd round of combat, not the first.

-Matt

But cavalry is DESIGNED to break things on the charge, if they don't then there should be a problem!

And barring a knight unit worth 7-800 points they just can't break units in this edition

edit sorry 30 Empire knights and warrior priest mounted costs 950 (over 1000 if you make them inner circle)

even then that is only 22 attacks plus 10 horses and even that might not be enough to break an infantry horde when without a doubt it should definitely do so every time

ASF is okay but I really think that something that represents the awesome impact of the knights smashing into things needs to be represented

Maybe thats the thing, 1 impact hit per knight at the strength of the knight ON THE CHARGE to represent the momentum that a 1000+ lbs of flesh and steel bearing down on you at 30 miles an hour has

cheers

Papasmurf

Whilst Knights crashing into things is supposed to be terrifying I dont think the answer is to give them more/better attacks. Immune to psychology on the charge would make sense if they have a large unit and +d6 combat res as opposed to the +1 for charging to represent the effect receiving a charge would have on moral might help balance things out. As its been said knights are supposed to break units on the charge but giving them bonus damage/attacks will lead to all kind of balance issues. +d6 combat res would still be random enough not to be an auto break but have enough potential to make the knights fearsome again.

Just my 2cents.

Knights can have all the +combat res in the world you want to give them, it doesn't matter against Steadfast. Shy of Brets and their fearsome Lance rules, Knights are a far cry from bringing about the damage we think they should. Giving everyone the Lance formation would be insane, though...

Yea I think chaos knights in lance formation will be a bit much

Plus then brets arent too special anymore

1 impact hit each would do for me now that I have thought about it more, simple, effective and makes sense (at least to me)

cheers

Papasmurf

PapaSmurf, check your math.

30 empire knights, with full command is 730.
Warrior priest on barded steed (heavy armor and shield) is 110.
840 for the combo.
Not only does it steam roll infantry, it takes very few losses so it can keep steamrolling infantry.

I think that's the real problem with cav. They don't become really useful until they hit stupidly huge point values (basically full horde formation) and that lets them do enough damage to grind through steadfast*.

*note: stupidly huge units of infantry are properly thinned by mortars.

-Matt

Using cavalry like the historical counterparts would lead into terrifying results - im pretty sure. But this means, you need some really big blocks of them.
As far as I can see/imagine it, in WHF it makes - mostly - no sense to use cavalry as their historical counterparts. But I agree, there should be a little tweaking for the heavy stuff. On the other hand, those buggers are fast, armored and can pretty much win you a combat to overrun into the next regiment. Their tactical use changed a bit but it´s ok for me. Use them to decide an ongoing combat and overrun instead of charging in, breaking everything 1st round and overrun and you should be good.

I have some special modifications:

1.Cavalry on the charge pops out of the other side of the enemy unit and may move the rest of its movement, if it has as many or more kills as the enemy has ranks. (Steadfast is still in place but the momentum of the charge leaves the cavalry clear of the enemy so it can charge again, maybee)
2.Heavy cav causes D3 impact hits for every full rank. (Hello Brettonians! You are BAAAAACKK!)
3.Lances have ASF on charge.
4. Spears recieving a charge negate lances to the front and pop out rule.

Hmmm, I like the pop out rule idea, as well as giving spears a bonus in 8th (typically worse than other weapon options).

How about after combat; if the knight win, the knights can choose to press through.
The Enemy holds, and the knights take an Ld Check (because 8th edition loves Ld checks). If they pass, they over-run, leaving the enemy behind. If they do not have enough space, or fail the Ld test, then the enemy still holds and the press though fails.

I'd give fast cav/skirmishers a similar option; If they charge and win, they can pass an Ld test to fall back (and attempt to rally at the end of the move), their opponent can only hold.

I don't like ASF on lances, and not on infantry spears vs naked chick with claws. Impact hits, at the mounts strength, I could go for, but I don't think cav needs more 1st round hitting power.

It would just make the chaos mounted deathstar even more brutal.

-Matt

I tink you guys are making some crazy suggestions that would make cav uber shmuber.

I don't think cav should be ranked like infantry. A horse behind another horse isn't going to be doing much.

I could see giving them D3 impact hits OR Stomp. That makes even small mobile cav units be able to wheel around and put a serious hurt on someone.

They simply gave Stomp to MI and that alone went a long way to making them balanced, and MI usually costs more than cavalry.

I think if you did a few test games with that, you'd see what a huge difference it would make.

Another idea is to make any cavalry rank be doubled. They take up double space already. I think it is silly when 2 ranks of infantry are steadfast against one rank of Cav.

Well that would give them some more staying power that is for sure but its the hitting power that I feel they are lacking

cheers

PapaSmurf

Frankly, I think cavalry are fine. People who are complaining about "Cavalry is irrelevant" have all described only one situation: charging a ranked up infantry block from in front.

Here is a suggestion: don't charge ranked-up infantry blocks from in front!

Cavalry is useful for killing monsters (Most cav has access to the flaming banner) such as hydras, varghulf, hellpits, black coaches... anything that doesn't have any ranks and doesn't have that many wounds.

Cavalry is useful for tipping a tight combat your way by charging in from a flank.

Cavalry is useful for making gunlines very nervous indeed.

Heavy cav in 7th, particularly chaos knights (and by the way, does ANYBODY here really care to assert that WoC need a buff? didn't think so), blood knights, and cold one knights were incredibly point and click. Just hit the unit in the face, wound on 2's and armor save their limited wounds on 2's, run them down and watch your opponent cry. With steadfast, you actually have to think a little bit about where to engage with your cavalry, and when, and in conjunction with what else. This makes the game better, not worse. Leave cav alone.

I would change very little except maybe a -1 to shoot marching cavalry (due to their speed).

I play Dark Elves, and the cavalry I play and play against is more than good enough on the charge. To give them another attack or make them better would require a large point increase.

PapaSmurf wrote:Well that would give them some more staying power that is for sure but its the hitting power that I feel they are lacking

cheers

PapaSmurf

3 s5 attacks per model, magical, plus another one at s4 for the horse. They lack hitting power?

Heavy Cav dont really need a buff. Though make them do 1 impact hit per model on charge base on mount strength wouldnt be too bad (Barding adds one strength).
Light Cav on the other hand could use some buff, maybe allow them to Stand and Shoot before fleeing from charges?

Its only 2 attacks per knight

cheers

Papasmurf

Jackster wrote:Heavy Cav dont really need a buff. Though make them do 1 impact hit per model on charge base on mount strength wouldnt be too bad (Barding adds one strength).
Light Cav on the other hand could use some buff, maybe allow them to Stand and Shoot before fleeing from charges?

i like your light cav idea but I would add a leadership check to be able to flee after firing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I would take away swiftstride for that move too.

How is this for a fix: have a common magical banner that takes away steafast?
Banner of the Blitz: 25 points on a close combat that you win combat resolution roll a d6 on a 4+ your opponent loses steadfast but not stubborn.

I feel that cavalry has been given a very damping down in 8th
I may play skaven but even i have to protest that cavalry(apart from Brettonian which i feel can get a little OP)has been sofened down.
alot.
look at historical accounts of cavalry charging dead on into the foe.
i mean this is what medevial cum resoninance timeline???
knights should be able to devestate units on the charge were as now in 8th they stand around infront of the infantry poking at them with their lances.
this is all wrong.
all heavy cavalry(3+save or better)with lances should have devestating charge.
atleast.
but in this WHFB heavy cavalry is with the exeption of Brettonians under powerd.

master of ordinance wrote:
but in this WHFB heavy cavalry is with the exeption of Brettonians under powerd.

Well I think chaos knights are still viable

Stupid S5 swords and fear!

Do agree that light cavalry is quite lacking beyond speed bumps

I agree with master of ordinance, historically heavy cavalry units are truly terrifying to face and were used to smash though large units of infantry.

Snipped brutally from Wikipedia:
From Heavy Cavalry:
Heavy cavalry is a class of cavalry whose primary role was to engage in direct combat with enemy forces ([as] shock troops).

From Cataphract:
Cataphracts served as either the elite cavalry or assault force for most empires and nations that fielded them, primarily used for impetuous charges to break through infantry formations.

This means that heavy cavalry should be able to take on all but the toughest units of infantry (thinking Chosen or Dwarven Longbeards) or infantry with spears/pikes.
Cavalry should be killing infantry
so one rank of cavalry should count as two infantry ranks
and should have the Devastating Charge rule and/or get an impact hit for each model in the front ranks.

Well, I'll agree that cavalry was designed for that sort a' thing. But...

Game-wise: a unit that can reliable break and run down other units in the first turn of combat is not a common thing. Deathstars, of course, being the exception (and still rarely the case). Right now, we're saying cavalry needs a boost. I, as a devout Skaven player, said the same thing about infantry in 7th. Switching back and forth won't do us any good. We need to find some middle ground.

History-wise: the whole reason soldiers moved in such tight formations was to discourage cavalry charges. A knight will surely kill a lot of guys, but if he runs in to a wall o' pikes, he's going down too.
So if you want to make cavalry better, I'd say you best make spears better too. And offer pikes as well.

Suggestions:
Cavalry: +1 impact hit/model at S of mount (maybe +1 S/rank).
Lances/spears grant ASF in the turn they charge (they're long).
Horses: S4. I mean, they're horses. Chaos horses can, I don't know, be WS4 if they're not already. Or just deal with being regular horses. No S5 horses.

Spears: ASF when receiving a charge.
Pikes: As spears, but requires two hands, +1 S, and fight in extra (extra) rank when receiving a charge. Cancels ASF of lances and spears. Cost- as great weapon upgrade.

How's that look?