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puma713 wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:
I am still unsure why the unit the IC is attached to counts as having defensive grenades.

Why do people keep saying this? This hasn't been stated as a part of the question, nor a part of any of the examples. Why do people keep assuming that the unit somehow magically gets more wargear? They don't. This is a question of how the rules are stated and if one model in the unit having a piece of wargear, does it affect the entire assaulting unit. This has nothing to do with others having defensive grenades.

You asked the same question: if a single model in a unit has a piece of wargear, does the entire unit count as having that piece of wargear? If yes, then only the IC would need to have the defensive grenades for the entire unit to count. The problem there is: when that IC happens to be an Inquisitor in terminator armor hanging out with a henchmen unit...which now counts as being equipped with terminator armor (if the "yes" crowd is to be believed).

I am of the opinion that "a unit equipped with" is significantly different that "a unit containing a model equipped with."

bushido wrote:

puma713 wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:
I am still unsure why the unit the IC is attached to counts as having defensive grenades.

Why do people keep saying this? This hasn't been stated as a part of the question, nor a part of any of the examples. Why do people keep assuming that the unit somehow magically gets more wargear? They don't. This is a question of how the rules are stated and if one model in the unit having a piece of wargear, does it affect the entire assaulting unit. This has nothing to do with others having defensive grenades.

You asked the same question: if a single model in a unit has a piece of wargear, does the entire unit count as having that piece of wargear?

This is ridiculous. If a single model in a unit has a lascannon, does the entire unit count as having a lascannon? Don't be obtuse. You know very well that grenades and other pieces of wargear function differently. To say that just because one model had "x" piece of wargear, the entire unit has it does nothing for the conversation and nothing to help understand why this does or doesn't work, since the idea has no bearing whatsoever.

bushido wrote:If yes, then only the IC would need to have the defensive grenades for the entire unit to count. The problem there is: when that IC happens to be an Inquisitor in terminator armor hanging out with a henchmen unit...which now counts as being equipped with terminator armor (if the "yes" crowd is to be believed).

I am of the opinion that "a unit equipped with" is significantly different that "a unit containing a model equipped with."

And since you have this myopic understanding of what this thread is asking, maybe you should stop posting in it. I am willing to listen to a logical and well-thought-out debate/conversation about why this does or does not work, but what you're saying does not even apply. This has nothing to do with a random piece of wargear that all of a sudden everyone has. Terminator armour doesn't say anything about units affecting it or it affecting other units, so that example is pointless. Grenades have specific rules that function when units interact. To liken them to something like a Rosarius or a another random piece of wargear is not an exercise of understanding or critical thinking.

Nosferatu has explained his position fairly well without using this defense of "how does everyone suddenly have grenades?" This idea is not moving the conversation forward at all, rather it is hindering it since we have to come to refute how ridiculous it is every time it is brought up.

For the 4th time now.

puma713 wrote:
This is ridiculous. If a single model in a unit has a lascannon, does the entire unit count as having a lascannon? Don't be obtuse. You know very well that grenades and other pieces of wargear function differently. To say that just because one model had "x" piece of wargear, the entire unit has it does nothing for the conversation and nothing to help understand why this does or doesn't work, since the idea has no bearing whatsoever..

Ah I see, so you do agree that a single model having a lascannon doesn't mean the entire unit has lascannons? In that case:

"Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades gain to Assault Bonus attacks."

The unit being assaulted isn't equipped with defensive grenades.

Models assaulting it gain their Assault Bonus attacks.

I think the debate comes down to how you interpret the term "assaulting against." This isn't a clearly defined term like "resolving attacks," "launching an assault," or "in combat with."

If you take it to mean "resolving attacks" or some derivative thereof, then clearly defensive grenades only affect models engaged with and directing attacks at the IC. If you take it to mean "launching an assault," the grenades RAW would not take affect, as no models are launching an assault at a unit equipped with defensive grenades (the targeted unit does not satisfy the requirements, and models can't launch assaults at only an IC in a unit). If you take it to mean "in combat with," then it affects any attacking unit in combat with the IC (but not those NOT engaged with the IC).

For what its worth, I tend to go with the last definition, since "assaulting" is typically differentiated from "attacking" or "resolving attacks" (i.e. an assault is a combat in the assault phase, not the attacks themselves). Since it uses the present tense "assaulting" that leads me to conclude that it affects all models involved in the assault against the unit with defensive grenades, not just those engaged with the IC.

Page 37, Number of Attacks

+1 Assault Bonus: Engaged Models who assaulted this turn get +1 attack bonus.

One of the examples:
Example 1: A unit of five Space Marines with bolters normally roll five dice for their attacks in close combat, If they were assaulting they would roll ten dice.

Defensive Grenades:
Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades gain no assault bonus attacks.

My point: Assault is both a verb and a noun. In the context of defensive grenades and bonus attacks, its a verb; when the verb is implied, it applies to these cases.

@bushido:
Defensive grenades does not specify whether its each or not. Plain English tells us that a group of something is equipped with something if they have at least one of it.

Example, "a team of hikers is equipped with first-aid kit" vs "a team of hikers is each equipped with a first-aid kit:" notice the difference?

Don't like it? Go complain to the people who made up the language.

bushido wrote:
Ah I see, so you do agree that a single model having a lascannon doesn't mean the entire unit has lascannons?

This discussion is more about the wording of Defensive Grenades than anything. For instance, if a tactical squad was armed with two meltaguns, and you assaulted the unit, you'd have assaulted a unit equipped with meltaguns, would you not? It doesn't mean, at any time, that every single model in the unit has meltaguns. Or, assaulting a dev squad with 4 missile launchers, you'd have assaulted a unit equipped with missile launchers. To say no is a blatant falsehood.

This is no different. The IC -is- a part of the unit. You assaulted the unit. The unit is equipped with Defensive Grenades, whether it is 1 model, or 30. It doesn't mean that every model has Defensive Grenades (just like in the meltagun example), it simply means that you're assaulting a unit equipped with Defensive Grenades. For some reason, you can't wrap your head around this, so we're not able to move on and actually talk about the wording of Defensive Grenades and how it interacts with the ruleset.

And, as Shadelkan pointed out, this apparently was brought up before and put to rest here.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, as he is part of the unit when joined to it, and Defensive grenades state "Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades". Note this is the inverse of the situation of Offensive Grenades, where only the models equipped with them may benefit, due to the wording being "Models equipped with assault grenades", rather than Units as in the case of Defensive grenades.

OK so lets play this by bushido's rules and turn them the other way. If one model in a unit has a lascannon and no other model does, does that mean your one model with the lascannon lose it? because thats what you're saying with the grenades and as much as you like to say it dosen't the GK FAQ does help us with this some what.

Games Workshop wrote:
Q: Does the entire unit need to be equipped with rad,
psyk-out and/or psychotroke grenades for their effects
to work or is just one model being equiped with them
enough? (p60)
A: One model in a unit is enough.

OK so when we factor in that if a GK IC dosen't lose his offensive grenades because he is the only one that has it and it is a grenade that effects models and correct me if i'm wrong here ( a friend has my GK codex at the moment) some of those work on the assualt, why then would any other IC lose a grenade that affects unit's and not be part of the unit for the same assault?

nosferatu1001 wrote:However when you resolve the attacks, the IC is a separate unit - meaning only the models assaulting the IC would get penalised.

If you use that logic then GK IC dont benefit from the BrotherHood Banner +1 attack which I remember alot of people saying you still do.

Grey elder wrote:But when attacks are resolved they are treated as a seperate unit so wouldn't the +1 attack bonus disapear since when he attacks he not counted as part of that unit. Hes part of the unit but whne it comes to attack his link to the unit disapears in a sense, so he is in the unit but he's treated as a sepreate unit when he attacks thus losing the benfits form the banner.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Only when resolving the attacks, as per page 49

You work out how many attacks you have before you resolve them, otherwise you dont know how many attacks you're going to resolve....

(your reply is refering to mine , sorry cant multiquote it right now )
But isnt this pretty much the same scenario.

Ref.(http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/359476.page)

voryn15 wrote:OK so lets play this by bushido's rules and turn them the other way. If one model in a unit has a lascannon and no other model does, does that mean your one model with the lascannon lose it? because thats what you're saying with the grenades and as much as you like to say it dosen't the GK FAQ does help us with this some what.

Games Workshop wrote:
Q: Does the entire unit need to be equipped with rad,
psyk-out and/or psychotroke grenades for their effects
to work or is just one model being equiped with them
enough? (p60)
A: One model in a unit is enough.

OK so when we factor in that if a GK IC dosen't lose his offensive grenades because he is the only one that has it and it is a grenade that effects models and correct me if i'm wrong here ( a friend has my GK codex at the moment) some of those work on the assualt, why then would any other IC lose a grenade that affects unit's and not be part of the unit for the same assault?

Shooting is done on a model-by-model or weapon-by-weapon basis. Grenades require that the unit be equipped with them. That's what this whole thing boils down to: if one model in the unit is enough for the entire unit to be considered equipped (which is why I use such ridiculous examples...to get you to think about how silly it sounds to me). Some say yes. Some say no and have profanity slung at them. Just the way it goes without an official clarification, I suppose.

One of the first posters said something to the effect of "you're not assaulting the IC, you're assaulting the unit he's joined." Which is very true. Since that's the case, and the unit's not equipped with defensive grenades, and there's no FAQ to clarify like there is for the GK grenades, the assaulting unit doesn't loose its assault bonus. Of course, in practical use, those models attacking or engaged with the IC would be the ones losing their assault bonus. But then again, that's just my opinion, and this is something you'd just have to work out with your opponent/TO on the day.

About your second point: the same reason some special rules are lost by IC's joining unit (and vice versa). The same reason an entire unit has to move at the speed of its slowest model. I wish my Wyches didn't lose Fleet because a Haemonculus is there to donate a Pain Token, but that's just the way the rule works. Also, just to clarify: defensive grenades effect models, not entire units.

But you are assaulting the IC, the moment you assault the squad he's with, hence why he's locked in combat along with them and has to react.

bushido wrote:

voryn15 wrote:OK so lets play this by bushido's rules and turn them the other way. If one model in a unit has a lascannon and no other model does, does that mean your one model with the lascannon lose it? because thats what you're saying with the grenades and as much as you like to say it dosen't the GK FAQ does help us with this some what.

Games Workshop wrote:
Q: Does the entire unit need to be equipped with rad,
psyk-out and/or psychotroke grenades for their effects
to work or is just one model being equiped with them
enough? (p60)
A: One model in a unit is enough.

OK so when we factor in that if a GK IC dosen't lose his offensive grenades because he is the only one that has it and it is a grenade that effects models and correct me if i'm wrong here ( a friend has my GK codex at the moment) some of those work on the assualt, why then would any other IC lose a grenade that affects unit's and not be part of the unit for the same assault?

Shooting is done on a model-by-model or weapon-by-weapon basis. Grenades require that the unit be equipped with them. That's what this whole thing boils down to: if one model in the unit is enough for the entire unit to be considered equipped (which is why I use such ridiculous examples...to get you to think about how silly it sounds to me). Some say yes. Some say no and have profanity slung at them. Just the way it goes without an official clarification, I suppose.

One of the first posters said something to the effect of "you're not assaulting the IC, you're assaulting the unit he's joined." Which is very true. Since that's the case, and the unit's not equipped with defensive grenades, and there's no FAQ to clarify like there is for the GK grenades, the assaulting unit doesn't loose its assault bonus. Of course, in practical use, those models attacking or engaged with the IC would be the ones losing their assault bonus. But then again, that's just my opinion, and this is something you'd just have to work out with your opponent/TO on the day.

About your second point: the same reason some special rules are lost by IC's joining unit (and vice versa). The same reason an entire unit has to move at the speed of its slowest model. I wish my Wyches didn't lose Fleet because a Haemonculus is there to donate a Pain Token, but that's just the way the rule works. Also, just to clarify: defensive grenades effect models, not entire units.

Well if that is your reasoning then nobody gets to use the the GK definition of daemons rights even though its a very close or almost exact example of what is being asked. So seeing as their is no fak besides the GK I would suggest you use the best example givien, so use the GK meaing that the whole units benefits from the one grenade.
Plus really think hard about it it only takes one greade to make a whole squad scramble for cover or blind them its not like they would all thorugh thier grenades at once realistrically they would probaly only need one or 2 to ruin a charge.

No, you dont use a meaningless FAQ (the specified grenades affect an entire UNIT based on one person having them, unlike defensive grenades which affect models assaulting units with them) to support anything.

bushido wrote:Shooting is done on a model-by-model or weapon-by-weapon basis. Grenades require that the unit be equipped with them. That's what this whole thing boils down to: if one model in the unit is enough for the entire unit to be considered equipped (which is why I use such ridiculous examples...to get you to think about how silly it sounds to me). Some say yes. Some say no and have profanity slung at them. Just the way it goes without an official clarification, I suppose.

I guess you don't understand the difference between unit and model. We say this sky is blue. You THINK we say: everything that is blue is the sky.
Just like the medkit example. The unit HAS grenades because one model HAS grenades. Go ask your mom, or whoever is in your house: do we have a newspaper, de we have a TV, do we have a telephone. If only ONE such object is in the house the answer is YES. That doesn't mean that every single one of you has their own telephone, newspaper, TV. Can't you understand how this work? Please do try to prove I'm wrong here. You just can't.
Again if family has a car that doesn't mean that every child has a car of his own. This is so simple it hurts.

bushido wrote:One of the first posters said something to the effect of "you're not assaulting the IC, you're assaulting the unit he's joined." Which is very true.

Which is very NOT true. This is an obvious lie and not backed up by any rule whatsoever. The IC is the part of the unit you are assaulting. You are assaulting unit containing IC and other models. If you try to state otherwise you are in direct contradiction of the rules. Period. There ARE rules from BRB that support this. You can't state otherwise and be taken seriously. Might as well try to tell us jump infantry can move 100".

bushido wrote:Since that's the case, and the unit's not equipped with defensive grenades, and there's no FAQ to clarify like there is for the GK grenades, the assaulting unit doesn't loose its assault bonus. Of course, in practical use, those models attacking or engaged with the IC would be the ones losing their assault bonus. But then again, that's just my opinion, and this is something you'd just have to work out with your opponent/TO on the day.

Your opinion is wrong because the part about IC not being assaulted is wrong.
It's either every model in the unit or no model in the unit loose their attack. Stating that only models attacking the IC loose their bonus is in DIRECT contradiction to rules that say that IC and unit are one Unit. Just go read BRB. There should be no discussion about it. This is NOT multi-assault.

bushido wrote:About your second point: the same reason some special rules are lost by IC's joining unit (and vice versa). The same reason an entire unit has to move at the speed of its slowest model. I wish my Wyches didn't lose Fleet because a Haemonculus is there to donate a Pain Token, but that's just the way the rule works.

Yes, there is a direct RULE that states that special rules are lost on joining the squad. There are rules saying you have to move at the slowest speed. There is no rule that grenades are lost. Wargear is not lost on joining the unit. If IC with a pistol joins unit without any shooting attack he is NOT loosing a pistol. The whole UNIT can shoot because UNIT HAS SHOOTING WEAPONS.

bushido wrote:Also, just to clarify: defensive grenades effect models, not entire units.

Also, I say it ONE MORE TIME. This is totally, 100% irrelevant to the discussion. Of course grenades affect models. Unit's don't have attacks. You can't decrease UNIT attacks by one because UNITS don't have attacks. MODELS do have attacks.

Now, the grenades work like this.
a) Unit A is assaulting unit B - containing some unit and IC.
b) They are assaulting Unit B witch is ONE UNIT - some unit and a model who is IC.
c) Unit B has grenades because there is a model (who happen to be IC, but this is irrelevant) who has grenades
d) Every model assaulting the unit B looses one attack - so every model from unit A regardless who do they attack.

a) is given. Everybody agrees here I hope.
b) is covered by the IC joining the unit. They became a unit.
c) is covered by logic and English language. This is the only place I guess we can disagree. There is no place in BRB which state how exactly it works.
d) if what I say is true, every model looses one attack. If what I say isn't - NO model looses an attack. There is no middle ground here because the assault is made on ONE unit -> if you don't agree you have to prove b) to be false.

Grey elder wrote:
Well if that is your reasoning then nobody gets to use the the GK definition of daemons rights even though its a very close or almost exact example of what is being asked. So seeing as their is no fak besides the GK I would suggest you use the best example givien, so use the GK meaing that the whole units benefits from the one grenade.
Plus really think hard about it it only takes one greade to make a whole squad scramble for cover or blind them its not like they would all thorugh thier grenades at once realistrically they would probaly only need one or 2 to ruin a charge.

They listed everything that counts as a daemon in the FAQ. Things that aren't daemons according to that list can't be treated like daemons for abilities that effect that type of model. The question in the FAQ wasn't asking "what counts as a daemon for the purposes of 'x GK-only ability.'" It was a broad question and it's safe to use the answer for anything that asks "what's a daemon?"

They only mention rad, psyk-out, and psychotroke grenades in the FAQ. Items that aren't one of those three can't be treated as if they were. Now, I'm sure you and your opponent can agree that it's a similar situation so the precedent can be followed, but we all saw how well that argument worked with turbo-boosting and shunting as a scout move. So just be careful.

There is too much discussion regarding the word "assaulting", the entire relevant text reads "Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades gain no Assault Bonus attacks (see opposite)"
"+1 Assault Bonus: Engaged models who assaulted this turn get +1 attack"

The entire condition can be read in my emphasis. The condition is thus for the models to have assaulted against a unit equipped with defensive grenades, and specifically not if they have directed attacks against models or not.

Note that an independent character is considered part of the unit all the way until you resolve attacks. I must also point out that models directing attacks onto an IC are always in a position to attack more than one model, unless the IC is alone, and as such it becomes extremely difficult to juggle when splitting attacks.

Defensive grenades is written exclusively to provide a negative modifier to the unit assaulting, rather than a protection for the defender. The situation is not at all different to Assaulting Through Cover, where just one single model may cause the entire unit to count as assaulting through cover and thus strike last. Even if only one model was really affected.

Good grief. An IC is part of a unit it has joined. The unit gets attacked. The IC tosses defensive grenades at the attacking unit. The whole unit has to wade through explosions to reach the defending unit (with the IC in it), so they don't get their bonus attacks.

Why is this so hard to understand? If you attack something that contains this piece of equipment, your whole unit gets debuffed.

Foo wrote:Good grief. An IC is part of a unit it has joined. The unit gets attacked. The IC tosses defensive grenades at the attacking unit. The whole unit has to wade through explosions to reach the defending unit (with the IC in it), so they don't get their bonus attacks.

Why is this so hard to understand? If you attack something that contains this piece of equipment, your whole unit gets debuffed.

Because realism has no place in a rules discussion, regardless of what side you're on.