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^ I have read many "real" books. Just because they are not to your taste does not mean they are rubbish. I don't like rap does that make it rubbish... no it means i don't like it. if you don't like the books them don't read them, let someone who enjoys them read them.

You guys can talk about everyone being their own special little snowflake all you want, but the fact remains that OP posed a question - "Is their any good warhammer novels?" - and I answered it: "No there isn't, the ones I've read are all crap." At least that's basically what I said.

What OP didn't ask was: "Is their any good warhammer novels? Don't answer unless you have no taste!" or: "Is their any good warhammer novels? Only answer if you think yes!" So if you really believe everyones' idea of "good" is right in its own way, clearly you should have no problem with me expressing my own feelings on the subject. You can call me a nauseating troll or whatever but it doesn't really make you come across as open-minded. And before you say the same to me, let me tell you that I personally don't pretend to value everyones' opinion equally.

To the people who thought the heresy books were good and therefore took offense when I said they were badly written and that you probably hadn't ever read a real book: Sorry. I didn't mean to actually insult you, but if my earlier post did make you feel emotional distress then maybe that will go some way towards making you realize how crap warhammer novels are. Because they are crap.

The reason I say that warhammer novels are crap is that, to me, a novel isn't "good" if it's not written well. And warhammer novels (the ones I've read of course) aren't written well. You can say that you liked them, that they're "good" and that that's your opinion and whatever, but you can't say that the cain series is well written and still be right.

I guess many of you have read real books but even if, like some, you do have over 2000 books at home, that doesn't necessarily mean you recognize good writing (or even that you've read them... hello? did you read them?). I myself don't read a whole lot, it's likely that my literary conquests amount to around a hundred volumes, but it's enough for me to understand that the best author I've encountered is Hemingway. This is because he writes extremely well, and I like him even better for writing about things that appeal to me subjectively.

Obviously warhammer appeals to all of us subjectively since we're here discussing it, but it's pretty much a fact that noone writes about warhammer well. Actually, being about warhammer is probably the only thing warhammer novels have going for them. But since everyone who reads them already knows about warhammer, they could just be the word "Warhammer" written over and over again for a few hundred pages. So OP, if you're really desperate for a warhammer fix, go ahead and read a novel, but I'm here to tell you that they're so poorly put together that the painting section in your codex will probably do the job better.

Which book features the emperor as an active character?

Very few books feature The Emperor as an active character. He appears various times throughout the Horus Heresy series, but he only ever speaks for a page or less. IIRC, there's at least a few short stories and audio books which feature him more prominently, but none from his point of view.

Viridian wrote:Well the best I've read is probably Ben Counter's Daemon World...

Lots of interesting mysterious twists threw out the story leaves you with a lot of questions even in the end of it. I liked the fact that he really didn't have a solid view point of a 'Chapter' or 'Group' it was just kind of a book thrown together using certain groups and elements of what life is like within the eye of terror as well as the history and the past of things involving a planet.

It involves a Word Bearer's Special Op's group that is on a man hunt for a rogue Sorcerer. The other storyline involves some barbaric tribesmen fighting the persecution of a Slaanesh city capital that oppresses the local inhabitants. Some conflicts happen all caused by this Sorcerer whom is pretty interesting character for what you find in the novel but I loved the read on it very low key and more mysterious then some of the honor bound / fighting books. Rather slow at first and you are wondering were Ben is going with the write but it picks up well the deeper the story gets the more the whole thing comes into focus all revolving around this Sorcerer.

-Sincerely Viri

Daemoworld is awesome, probably Mr Counters finest to date.

Storm of Iron is also a classic and an essential read.

The newer books seem to be getting a bit more, I dunno, shiny and watered down. ADB seems to be keeping things up to scratch though and is probably one of the best of the new breed.

Dan Abnetts Eisenhorn is a must as well.

Jimsolo wrote:
I won't read McNeil anymore, but that is a personal grievance over his handling of Fulgrim (by far the worst 40k book I have ever read).

I agree to a point, it was bad, not the worst but not at all good.

Horus Rising was awesome, praise to Mr Abnett, and then False Gods is good but seems to lose its way a bit. It just feels lacking and the character portrayals aren't as crisp. I don't think McNeil is very good at writing individual events effecting characters, Horus dream sequence and Fulgrim talking to himself just left me a bit .. wut?

portugaltheman wrote:
I forget who wrote Galaxy in Flames, but I wasn't impressed. Not the level of craftsmanship you'd see from the former, but gets the job done.

Ben Counter and it's one of his better books, initially I didn't enjoy it but after a couple of re reads I actually really liked it. The only gripe I have is a line by Horus that goes somthing along the lines of 'let the galaxy burn'. Now, for a guy who wants to unite the galaxy under his new order for the betterment of the Imperium and it's citizens, burning the galaxy doesn't seem a very nice thing to do

Almarine wrote:You guys can talk about everyone being their own special little snowflake all you want, but the fact remains that OP posed a question - "Is their any good warhammer novels?" - and I answered it: "No there isn't, the ones I've read are all crap." At least that's basically what I said.

What OP didn't ask was: "Is their any good warhammer novels? Don't answer unless you have no taste!" or: "Is their any good warhammer novels? Only answer if you think yes!" So if you really believe everyones' idea of "good" is right in its own way, clearly you should have no problem with me expressing my own feelings on the subject. You can call me a nauseating troll or whatever but it doesn't really make you come across as open-minded. And before you say the same to me, let me tell you that I personally don't pretend to value everyones' opinion equally.

To the people who thought the heresy books were good and therefore took offense when I said they were badly written and that you probably hadn't ever read a real book: Sorry. I didn't mean to actually insult you, but if my earlier post did make you feel emotional distress then maybe that will go some way towards making you realize how crap warhammer novels are. Because they are crap.

The reason I say that warhammer novels are crap is that, to me, a novel isn't "good" if it's not written well. And warhammer novels (the ones I've read of course) aren't written well. You can say that you liked them, that they're "good" and that that's your opinion and whatever, but you can't say that the cain series is well written and still be right.

I guess many of you have read real books but even if, like some, you do have over 2000 books at home, that doesn't necessarily mean you recognize good writing (or even that you've read them... hello? did you read them?). I myself don't read a whole lot, it's likely that my literary conquests amount to around a hundred volumes, but it's enough for me to understand that the best author I've encountered is Hemingway. This is because he writes extremely well, and I like him even better for writing about things that appeal to me subjectively.

Obviously warhammer appeals to all of us subjectively since we're here discussing it, but it's pretty much a fact that noone writes about warhammer well. Actually, being about warhammer is probably the only thing warhammer novels have going for them. But since everyone who reads them already knows about warhammer, they could just be the word "Warhammer" written over and over again for a few hundred pages. So OP, if you're really desperate for a warhammer fix, go ahead and read a novel, but I'm here to tell you that they're so poorly put together that the painting section in your codex will probably do the job better.

The fact of the matter is that your previous post, and certain parts of this one, come off as particularly arrogant and patronizing. I agree that the vast majority of Black Library books aren't master pieces. They're sci-fi books, churned out at a stupid rate, and in many cases the only thing going is the fact that they're about the 40k or WHFB universe. Saying you have no taste if you enjoyed them is a very bold statement to make on a forum like this.
That said, there are several books, that in my opinion contradict this statement of no good warhammer books. Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver, the former in particular, are good books in and of themselves. Aron Dembski-Bowden is a very good writer, he actually crafts a narrative, an atmosphere, a story, with his books, rather than the usual battle scenes followed by descriptions of awesome sights. I haven't read much of Dan Abnett's works outside of the Horus Heresy, but they were borderline good books in my opinion, although it's difficult to judge considering his first is the first installment of what was a continual story. It's let down by this, and a general lack of finality, like it comes to an abrupt ending where the setting of the next book is explained only in the last few lines. Legion is a different story. Abnett does well to establish the mystery behind the Cabal and the Alpha Legion, almost too well in that we have no idea what either decided. It feel it's only downside is it's ending, which was lack luster compared to the stupendous build-up to the meeting between the two parties. Graham McNeil, I feel (yes it's a rhyme) hasn't been given a good premise to write about. The Ultramarines series, although an enjoyable series, isn't particularly suitable to craft an engaging story. His Horus Heresy works however, A Thousand Sons, Fulgrim, and False Gods, don't suffer from this quite as much, although False Gods, which is the second in the first trilogy of Horus Heresy books, suffers largely from the same aliment as Dan Abnett's Horus Rising, possibly more so, in that it had to continue another authors story and the main story at the same time. Both A Thousand Sons and Fulgrim are stand out books in the series, each deals with a rather insular plot, which only re-joins the main story in the final stages. They're good books, Fulgrim has a splendid build up, showing the slow decent of the Emperor's Children splendidly, whilst A Thousand Sons crafts a story of a betrayed son, utterly loyal to the end. These are in my opinion, 'good' books about warhammer.

Almarine wrote:
I guess many of you have read real books but even if, like some, you do have over 2000 books at home, that doesn't necessarily mean you recognize good writing (or even that you've read them... hello? did you read them?). I myself don't read a whole lot, it's likely that my literary conquests amount to around a hundred volumes, but it's enough for me to understand that the best author I've encountered is Hemingway. .

Wow - just wow

Well yep in actual fact I have read all 2000+ books I have at home from a wide variety of authors (in different centuries) and in a wide variety of genres. Surely any such judgement about the quality or lack of is subjective - or is your defination that anyone who does not like Hemmingway (who I have also read) is stupid/wrong etc etc as unfortunately that does come accross as rather arrogant?

What is fair is to say "I don't like the BL novels because" which to be fair you also did - but saying that those who do have no taste or their opinion is worthless is to me too strong. There are, IMO many ways for a book to qualify as good - enjoyment is a valuable as creative ability or ability to craft prose. We are all different and measure things by different standards - we are evidently very different - let leave it that?

My recommendations:
Abnett, especially Double Eagle and Titanicus.The man knows his way around military sci-fi (heck the military in general) and his are the most 'realistic'/believable works BL has put out thus far.
A bunch of the Horus Heresy books are worth a read to, particularly Legion and A Thousand Sons. Prospero Burns, Nemesis, and Mechanicum are also worth a read, but it seems a lot of people didn't like those.
Also, you MUST read Storm of Iron, its an epically awesome book.

I recommend staying away from Zou's works until you're more familiar with the background. He has a different approach (for lack of a better term) to the background/writing style that I'm not sure I like. He writes very good stories, but they aren't necessarily good WH40k stories... theres a lot of plot armor/deus ex machina type stuff going on, and his works are filled with internal contradictions and inconsistencies.

Polvilhovoador wrote:Has anyone read Atlas Infernal? I ordered mine today, should arrive in 2 weeks (if I'm lucky)

Started it the other day, been busy with other stuff so really haven't made it very far into the story. It seems interesting thus far, but otherwise I can't really comment.

Abnet is good. I have to dissagre that Necropolis is the best GG book. Id say that only in death is better. They have many things in common in how they are writen, but i find that the ending is better in only in death. I would stay away from the Ravenor books since, well lets just say that clossure is overated. Imperial Guard books are the best scince they are abbout realistic Humans and not about strong, resilent, and oh-so-glorios Astares. Or emotionless xenos.

Most 40k books are good pulp. I'd say that most belong in the pick up from the Library/buy at the charity shop/ buy an omnibus if very bored at the station. If your looking for a brilliant, original masterpiece I wouldn't bother but for an evening or so's light reading they're great. Sandy Mitchell's my favourite although Will King is well worth a read.

Almarine wrote:
I guess many of you have read real books but even if, like some, you do have over 2000 books at home, that doesn't necessarily mean you recognize good writing (or even that you've read them... hello? did you read them?). I myself don't read a whole lot, it's likely that my literary conquests amount to around a hundred volumes, but it's enough for me to understand that the best author I've encountered is Hemingway. .

Hang on a tick.

You've only read about a hundred books, and yet your attitude comes across as if you're seated atop some sort of Throne of Literary Judgement? You can cut the arrogance now, if you please.

I understand that you're not a fan. That's not a crime, a lot of 40k is just sci-fi pulp. But to say that anyone who does enjoy these books has never read a 'real' book is deluded.

What is fair is to say "I don't like the BL novels because" which to be fair you also did - but saying that those who do have no taste or their opinion is worthless is to me too strong. There are, IMO many ways for a book to qualify as good - enjoyment is a valuable as creative ability or ability to craft prose. We are all different and measure things by different standards - we are evidently very different - let leave it that?

Different strokes for different folks and all that. In my opinion, a good book is whatever grips the reader and keeps their interest active to some extent. A great book will have the reader completely unable to put the book down, (though there's far more to it than this). The reader should want to know what happens next, not just at the end, or there must be something that keeps them reading devotedly. I've sometimes been surprised that the quality of writing doesn't necessarily stop this.

Other than saying they have no taste, I can't really argue with someone whose definition of "good" contains no requirement on actual quality. However, I don't think it's possible to actually enjoy warhammer novels if you understand how untalented and lame the authors are. I don't know if you do understand or if you just don't care, but in either case, how are you in a position to declare something good or not when all you have to base it on is personal opinion? Surely it makes more sense to answer in terms of the objectively true, when OP asks if there are any decent warhammer novels?

Faithful, I don't have a Throne of Literary Judgment. I wish I did, but, you know. I'm just a guy who understands a bit about writing - enough to know that a novel can be badly written even if you like it. I believe that probably anyone in this thread could write better than most of the BL crew with some coaching. It's like they're 16-year old amateurs who have no editors. Anyone here ever try to write themselves?

By the way, I would think that it's almost impossible for someone to read 2000 books and still think warhammer novels are alright, but I don't want to call anyone stupid or a liar, so let's just bury that hatchet. Maybe some people just have a knack for looking at the bright side.

I just finished reading Dark Creed, part of the Word Bearers series, and I loved it. Shows a lot of insight into how the CSM work with/against Daemons, though the daemons here have little personality at all.

Currently I'm working through some vampire book called Bloodforged. I bought it because it mentioned a Slaaneshi cult. It's....ok, but the main character keeps losing herself in blood rage, then promising to be more in control next time. I'm almost halfway through the book and it's happened about four times now. Gets a little old.

Other than horrible editing and lots of typos, I actually enjoy the books. Don't listen to Almarine, he's just being a naysayer. You know, the cool guy that disagrees with everyone else, and thinks they're superior and everyone else is just sheep.

Unfortunately, though, you will find good and bad reads amongst the warhammer books. I forget who said it, but the advice of "pick a book about the army you play and read it" is good. Like I said, I enjoyed the Word Bearers novels, and I play Chaos Space Marines. And Vampire Counts using Lahmians. All that jazz.

One thing I liked about the Word Bearers novels is how accurate it is to fluff, for the most part. They often fight Imperial Guard, and while they cut them down 100 for each word bearer, the story goes out of its way to show that despite that, the Word Bearers get pushed back by weight of fire and numbers.

And don't get attached to any characters, by the way - that author is NOT kind to favoritism.

I just loved Titanticus.

Ben Counter's Daemon World is a really excellent read.

Almarine wrote:
Other than saying they have no taste, I can't really argue with someone whose definition of "good" contains no requirement on actual quality. However, I don't think it's possible to actually enjoy warhammer novels if you understand how untalented and lame the authors are. I don't know if you do understand or if you just don't care, but in either case, how are you in a position to declare something good or not when all you have to base it on is personal opinion? Surely it makes more sense to answer in terms of the objectively true, when OP asks if there are any decent warhammer novels?

Faithful, I don't have a Throne of Literary Judgment. I wish I did, but, you know. I'm just a guy who understands a bit about writing - enough to know that a novel can be badly written even if you like it. I believe that probably anyone in this thread could write better than most of the BL crew with some coaching. It's like they're 16-year old amateurs who have no editors. Anyone here ever try to write themselves?

By the way, I would think that it's almost impossible for someone to read 2000 books and still think warhammer novels are alright, but I don't want to call anyone stupid or a liar, so let's just bury that hatchet. Maybe some people just have a knack for looking at the bright side.

You aren't the only person who 'understands a bit about writing', so Soul Hunter, Blood Reaver, Cadian Blood, The First Heretic, A Thousand Sons, Legion, and the Ultramarines series disagree.

"I myself don't read a whole lot, it's likely that my literary conquests amount to around a hundred volumes, but it's enough for me to understand that the best author I've encountered is Hemingway."

Well, there's enough reason to discard your opinion right there. If you think the end-all and be-all of writing is "Papa" Hemingway...

Look, so what if they are badly written, i don't think so but i'm not an english buff, what dose it matter as long as you enjoy the books.
Whats makes them so bad, just because they do not have the very conveluted metaphores, or silly moral or phylisofical meanings.
You know exactly what are in the warhammer novels, ACTION, BACKGROUND and a plot revolving around the 40K universe, if they don't use flowery language who gives a gak! really if you don't like the books don't read them but don't ruin the possible reading experiences of people willing to try, I'm looking at you almarine.

the only advice i can give is: get a book if you like it buy more, if not then don't.
I personally love this style of writing, and would encourage others to try the experience.


Edit: i don't think i wrote gak ?

I'm not bothered with him not liking 40k books. I disagree, I'm not saying he can't voice an opinion. What bothered me is the arrogance he must have to say :

Almarine wrote:Warhammer novels are terrible. They're just terrible. I'm sorry guys, but if you thought the heresy books were well written then you've probably never read a real book. For the sake of mankind I hope yours are cases of simple bad taste and that writings do not exist that warrant your aversion, because they would surely spell the doom of us all on the day of final judgment.

iproxtaco wrote:I'm not bothered with him not liking 40k books. I disagree, I'm not saying he can't voice an opinion. What bothered me is the arrogance he must have to say :

Almarine wrote:Warhammer novels are terrible. They're just terrible. I'm sorry guys, but if you thought the heresy books were well written then you've probably never read a real book. For the sake of mankind I hope yours are cases of simple bad taste and that writings do not exist that warrant your aversion, because they would surely spell the doom of us all on the day of final judgment.

I agree of course he has his right to an opinion but that is what it is. he could say "i don't like them" or "i thinks they are god-awful". it was the so matter of factly and the insistence on being right when it is only his opinion that bugged me.

Almarine wrote:
Other than saying they have no taste, I can't really argue with someone whose definition of "good" contains no requirement on actual quality. However, I don't think it's possible to actually enjoy warhammer novels if you understand how untalented and lame the authors are. I don't know if you do understand or if you just don't care, but in either case, how are you in a position to declare something good or not when all you have to base it on is personal opinion? Surely it makes more sense to answer in terms of the objectively true, when OP asks if there are any decent warhammer novels?

Faithful, I don't have a Throne of Literary Judgment. I wish I did, but, you know. I'm just a guy who understands a bit about writing - enough to know that a novel can be badly written even if you like it. I believe that probably anyone in this thread could write better than most of the BL crew with some coaching. It's like they're 16-year old amateurs who have no editors. Anyone here ever try to write themselves?

By the way, I would think that it's almost impossible for someone to read 2000 books and still think warhammer novels are alright, but I don't want to call anyone stupid or a liar, so let's just bury that hatchet. Maybe some people just have a knack for looking at the bright side.

Oh, you are just adorable! You keep on defending your blatant trolling (If it's not trolling, then you're just incapable of realising how much your posts reek of condescension and unwarranted self-importance), while continuously placing an objective value on "taste." So cute!

To be serious, I have only read one 40k novel in its entirety, Fulgrim, which I quite enjoyed, the progression of the taint spreading through the Emperor's Children Legion (And Fulgrim himself) was well-written in my opinion, it had a good build-up to the final fall. I am currently reading A Thousand Sons, which is good so far, but am not yet done.

No one gives a damn if you don't like BL, I have barely read any of their novels so I am not "offended" by you disliking their work, but don't sit there and pretend you are not condescending with every post.

Ok Almarine, here's some of your ridiculous logic turned back on you. Hemingway is crap. Nothing interesting happens in his books, and they have aged extremely poorly. Because this is my personal opinion, it must somehow become indelible fact. For enjoying them you are the scum of the earth and deserve to be purged from society. Now stop trolling and leave us to enjoy some sci-fi action.

On that note, I can't recommend Gaunt's Ghosts more strongly. Only In Death is my favorite, the ending really got to me.

Other great 40k books are ADB's Night Lords books, most of the Horus Heresy (especially The First Heretic, Legion, A Thousand Sons, and Mechanicum), Titanicus, Eissenhorn, Ravenor, Atlas Infernal, Ciaphas Cain, and Path of the Warrior.

Almarine - troll of the day! I'd rather Gaunts Ghosts over Hemingway any day, and I like to think I know a thing or two about books.

If you can find one, or get a hold of the reprint, try the original Space Marine. Regardless of what had happened since that book really set the standard.

Anything by Dan Abnett is to recommended - the man is a superb writer (see Sinister & Dexter in 2000AD)

I've read loads of Warhammer books and have to agree with what most people are saying - anything by Dan Abnett (he is THE MAN), Aaron Dembski-Bowden, Graham McNeil or Sandy Mitchell, although there are plenty of other good writers too. If you want something a little more light hearted (I know it's not 40K but) Blood Bowl by Matt Forbeck is worth a look if you can find a copy.

Abnet is far from being a superb writer. He knows how to write some good military fiction but his Ghosts novels tend to suffer from a stupendous amount of villain idiocy syndrome ( which is commong among Black Library writers, i look at you Mr. Kyme ) and his endings are not always satisfying. Still, he is one of the better writers.

Just finished Bloodforged. The first half is pretty good but for her constant falling back into rages. The second half....sappy love scenes anyone?

It's a good read and gives lots of ideas for my D&D campaign I'm running - LOTS of ideas. But there are some parts, and some dialogue, that just makes me roll my eyes.

About to start "Sigvald". Considering he's my favorite special character, I have high expectations. I hope they're met!

Ya I loved a thousand sons a very good book

Storm of Iron, Titanicus, the Night Lords books weren't bad, Gunheads, and Cadian Blood just to name some...

So, only three people in this thread have read Sandy Mitchell's books?

Cmon now... I am dissapoint.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh, you are just adorable! You keep on defending your blatant trolling (If it's not trolling, then you're just incapable of realising how much your posts reek of condescension and unwarranted self-importance), while continuously placing an objective value on "taste." So cute!

I don't see what's cute about this. It's also not what I'm doing. I'm recognizing that the process of writing a novel requires some understanding of how one writes a novel. I guess you could say that I'm placing an objective value on qualitative writing, which isn't out of the ordinary.

Like I said before, if you think a book is good then that's your opinion, but your opinion doesn't make a writer better at writing. This is where madandaronlorynj is wrong, because papa Hemingway is a good writer. If you think his books are boring then that's your problem and it doesn't make them objectively crap, they're just not to your taste. In the same way, it's not because I think the warhammer writers write about stupid things that they are crap, it's because they're objectively bad at doing it. And I never called anyone scum, except maybe the writers, I don't remember.

Spellbound wrote: Don't listen to Almarine, he's just being a naysayer. You know, the cool guy that disagrees with everyone else, and thinks they're superior and everyone else is just sheep.

Well, I am a cool guy and all that, but I prefer the term truthsayer. I'm really just trying to save OP from blowing his warhammer money on GW's worst products. Anyway, I can tell you guys aren't taking to my point of view any time soon, so I'll go and argue with someone else. In the spirit of camaraderie, however, I will take from this thread one novel. The last warhammer novel I will ever read, if my expectations are met. Not that I won't give it a fair chance, I want them to be good just as much as you. Any special recommendations?