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Zweischneid wrote:Gandalf would probably devise a convoluted, inane plan, taking 2 thousand years or more from start to finish, and culminating in some likeable Ratling working himself up into the personal-service on Terra tasked with scrubbing the floors close to the Golden Throne, from where he would take the opportunity to pull the throne's plug at a convenient moment. Thus Gandalf > Emperor.

The Custodes decides who come in. Even the high lords of Terra don't have power over them on that decision. And it's a rare thing to see a Custodes first off. And no Custodes would allow some Janitor to come close to where The God Emperor of Mankind resides,heretic.

So, do the Custodes scrub the floors of the Throne Room themselves or do they outsource the job? maybe they have an Intern?

warpcrafter wrote:Come on! This is DakkaDakka, we already know that Chuck Norris would stomp all three, at the same time. I am disappoint...

Damn right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:So, do the Custodes scrub the floors of the Throne Room themselves or do they outsource the job? maybe they have an Intern?

Lol interns

Admittedly Space Mariens are so ubber they can beat anyone.

Even so, they should be worried to go up against the crew that roasted Sauron's ring. I mean, the most powerful being in Middle Earth versus a few sausage sucking hobbits? Those guys had some kind of mojo going on.

Smitty0305 wrote:

bedeporter wrote:Eru is the God from Tolkeins fiction. Gandalf is a demi-angel since the Valar are metaphorical Angels and the maiar (Gandalf is a maiar) served the Valar. Not that that really matters though...

where did you read this?

As void dragon said, it is in the silmarillion. For anybody here interested, it's a good read but even more convoluted than tlotr series. So if you're not into tolkein then you could always google it.

Re: Why didn't the Giant Eagles do a 633 Squadron with the Ring and precision bomb it into Mount Doom.

Eagle carries Ring
Eagle gets corrupted by Ring
Falls into Sauron's clutches.
Game over.

or

Eagle carries Ring in a bag on a long tether to avoid corruption.
Nazgul bounce Eagle.
Ring falls into Sauron's clutches
Game over.

Interesting point KK.
Why are there no Space Hobbits in 40K?
Is it cos they would run rings around the SM's? (pun intended)

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Why are there no Space Hobbits in 40K?
Is it cos they would run rings around the SM's? (pun intended)

Every heard of Ratlings?

Emporer Palpatine would roll up in Death Star III and blow middle earth to bits.....

Now it is interesting on the Eldar vs Imperium front but I think the sheer weight of numbers would tell and Eldrad while nasty would end up overwhelmed by Tie fighters and storm troopers.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Re: Why didn't the Giant Eagles do a 633 Squadron with the Ring and precision bomb it into Mount Doom.

Eagle carries Ring
Eagle gets corrupted by Ring
Falls into Sauron's clutches.
Game over.

or

Eagle carries Ring in a bag on a long tether to avoid corruption.
Nazgul bounce Eagle.
Ring falls into Sauron's clutches
Game over.

Interesting point KK.
Why are there no Space Hobbits in 40K?
Is it cos they would run rings around the SM's? (pun intended)

and there are space hobbits, ratling snipers in the IG codex

I would say Gandalf....this is why.

1) When Gandalf defeated the Balrog he was merely Gandalf the Gray. Afterward he ascended to Gandalf the white. So he was a super bad ass before he even ascended
2) When he met Aaragon and Legolas in the woods as Gandalf the White he very easily dispatched their weapons in a blink of an eye. These are two highly regarded warriors of their realm and he very effortlessly blocked Legolas's arrows and defelcted all of Aaragons attacks. So he easily bested the top warriors of middle earth, and he did it with no effort.
3) He is a very wise tactician - upon the storming of helms deep, he devised a plan to flank the enemy down a giant hill at sun rise, with the sun to his back blinding his foes. Then wiping out most of the Orc horde by himself. All the while calculating the time it would take for him to travel to grab reinforcements.


I think Gandalf definitely has some precognitive abilities given what he has done in the books.

and there are space hobbits, ratling snipers in the IG codex

Thanks (also to Dawi)

Thought that a Ratling was a hand cranked machine gun used by the IG
Hand cranking a ratling takes on a whole new meaning for me now

Can't see that vid but suspect it is Boromir's "stupendous" idea?

Crom wrote:I would say Gandalf....this is why.

1) When Gandalf defeated the Balrog he was merely Gandalf the Gray. Afterward he ascended to Gandalf the white. So he was a super bad ass before he even ascended
2) When he met Aaragon and Legolas in the woods as Gandalf the White he very easily dispatched their weapons in a blink of an eye. These are two highly regarded warriors of their realm and he very effortlessly blocked Legolas's arrows and defelcted all of Aaragons attacks. So he easily bested the top warriors of middle earth, and he did it with no effort.
3) He is a very wise tactician - upon the storming of helms deep, he devised a plan to flank the enemy down a giant hill at sun rise, with the sun to his back blinding his foes. Then wiping out most of the Orc horde by himself. All the while calculating the time it would take for him to travel to grab reinforcements.


I think Gandalf definitely has some precognitive abilities given what he has done in the books.

Eldrad has done something similar but ultimately more impressive than the three points. The first, well, that's yet to be decided.

bedeporter wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:

bedeporter wrote:Eru is the God from Tolkeins fiction. Gandalf is a demi-angel since the Valar are metaphorical Angels and the maiar (Gandalf is a maiar) served the Valar. Not that that really matters though...

where did you read this?

As void dragon said, it is in the silmarillion. For anybody here interested, it's a good read but even more convoluted than tlotr series. So if you're not into tolkein then you could always google it.

And, if you've read The Silmarillion and still want more background information on Middle Earth, I suggest you pick up The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien. Not all of it is very interesting (it has to do with him talking to his publisher about due dates), but there are plenty of responses to fan letters that answer some of the otherwise unanswered questions.

For a brief summary of the Tolkien mythology:

Eru Ilúvatar is the one true god. He existed in the beginning. He's a very hands-off god, and isn't really involved in much at all. He's responsible for reshaping the world when the Númenóreans sailed to Valinor. He's also speculated to be behind Gandalf's ressurection.

The Ainur were the first creations of Eru. They are powerful spirits. They created and shaped the world with a bit of guidance from Eru.
The Valar are the most powerful Ainur. There are 15 of them. They are Manwë, Melkor (aka Morgoth), Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Námo (Mandos), Irmo (Lórien), Tulkas, Varda, Yavanna (Palùrien), Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, Nessa. Melkor is the most powerful and was the first great enemy.
The Maiar are also Ainur, but are less powerful. They are mostly servents of the Valar. There are a whole ton of them, but most are unnamed. Gandalf, Sauruman, Radagast, Sauron, and the Balrogs are all examples of Maiar.

Elves are creations of Eru. They "awoke" earlier than any other sentient creature. They are immortal. They are incredibly powerful, especially the ancient ones. There are plenty of examples of an Elf taking down a Maia.

Humans are creations of Eru. They "awoke" after the elves. They were given the gift of mortality. The "purest" were very powerful and long-lived, but they degraded pretty quickly over time.

Dwarves are creations of Aulë. They were actually created before the Elves woke up, but Eru was pissed at Aulë for doing this, so he put the Dwarves into hibernation until after his creations awoke.

Orcs have a vague origin. Melkor created them, but it's not entirely clear how. The best explanation is that they are in fact Elves that have been corrupted by Melkor.

Hobbits have no real defined origin. They just kinda show up during the Third Age.

I thought the orcs were a group of the original Elves taken by Melkor and tortured into their hideous forms, and this is not just from the film.

Never been able to get into the Silmarillion.
It looks as though the Ainur and Valir are influenced by the Aesir and Vanir

iproxtaco wrote:I thought the orcs were a group of the original Elves taken by Melkor and tortured into their hideous forms, and this is not just from the film.

The film presented this as a fact. However, Tolkien never totally confirmed this. He had a few different theories on the origins of Orcs (for those of you unfamiliar with Tolkien's behind the scenes writings, he likes to write from the perspective as the events actually having happened, and he's a kind of historian/archeologist). The most popular was certainly that they are Elves. If Tolkien had lived to finish The Silmarillion, he may have given a final answer. But, sadly, he died before making up his mind (or, at least leaving a record of his final decision).

I know, but I learnt that from other sources before realizing what Saruman said. It's unique that Tolkien created his own fantasy world but still talked like he was discovering it in many parts.

iproxtaco wrote:I know, but I learnt that from other sources before realizing what Saruman said. It's unique that Tolkien created his own fantasy world but still talked like he was discovering it in many parts.

Well, his intention was to create a ancient mythology native to England. He intentionally left the door open on many issues so that others could come along and expand on his work. The fact that we're having this debate indicates he did a pretty good job.


And, back on topic:
After thinking about this, I've got to change my vote to Eldrad over Gandalf. Gandalf simply isn't all that powerful. Plus, Eldrad has a gun.

As I implied earlier and others have said any comparison between a fictional character in one fictional universe cannot be judged fairly against a fictional character from another fictional universe.

Gandalf is as strong and as fallible as Tolkien made him for the purposes of a given narrative.
The Emperor and Eldrad are bound to be souped up by necessity as characters developed for a war game written 30 odd years later ? and set in a desperate universe based on war with powerful weaponry and psychic forces.

Grakmar wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I know, but I learnt that from other sources before realizing what Saruman said. It's unique that Tolkien created his own fantasy world but still talked like he was discovering it in many parts.

Well, his intention was to create a ancient mythology native to England. He intentionally left the door open on many issues so that others could come along and expand on his work. The fact that we're having this debate indicates he did a pretty good job.


And, back on topic:
After thinking about this, I've got to change my vote to Eldrad over Gandalf. Gandalf simply isn't all that powerful. Plus, Eldrad has a gun.

A balrog is pretty much a Greater Daemon, though I guess Eldrad on a good dice roll could mind war a greater daemon and slay it.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

and there are space hobbits, ratling snipers in the IG codex

Thanks (also to Dawi)

Thought that a Ratling was a hand cranked machine gun used by the IG
Hand cranking a ratling takes on a whole new meaning for me now

Can't see that vid but suspect it is Boromir's "stupendous" idea?

This....made my day

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:As I implied earlier and others have said any comparison between a fictional character in one fictional universe cannot be judged fairly against a fictional character from another fictional universe.

Gandalf is as strong and as fallible as Tolkien made him for the purposes of a given narrative.
The Emperor and Eldrad are bound to be souped up by necessity as characters developed for a war game written 30 odd years later ? and set in a desperate universe based on war with powerful weaponry and psychic forces.

Here's a thing, no one cares. We'll compare them if we want.

Here's another thing
Knock yourself, out I never said you shouldn't.
Just that it is pointless

It's quite annoying though to have some guy repeatedly jump in and tell people the argument is pointless, when it's as pointless as any discussion on general or background, especially when no one cares the first time. No one is making you monitor the thread.

The hobbit was fun, LotR... i finished 10 pages before I got bored out of my skull. So went back to reading Goblin Quest (HUZZAH!)

Also, Creed wins.

iproxtaco wrote:It's quite annoying though to have some guy repeatedly jump in and tell people the argument is pointless, when it's as pointless as any discussion on general or background, especially when no one cares the first time. No one is making you monitor the thread.

Firstly I have been in the thread joining in the fun pretty much from its inception.

Secondly the only person that has allocated the post of thread monitor to me is yourself.

Thirdly your own intervention and accusations are hardly in the spirit of the thread.
so now would be a good time to stop.

I have enjoyed the thread and especially the discussion about the role of Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings.
Sorry my comments have been misinterpreted by you and caused you such grief.
I will sadly withdraw from the thread rather than risk being the cause of further derailment, so if you have any further personal and unecessary comments to make, feel free to PM
Good day

Smitty0305 wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:Tossing this here... Gandalf is actually a demi-god whose powers would equal roughly those of sauron if he were to use them in the fullest.

Based on the actual religious theology intended in lord of the rings there is only one GOD and it is not gandalf nor is it sauron.

god != demi-god. To be completely precise there are 3 levels of "divinity" in the universe described by tolkien: Iluvatar, the creator of all, the Valar, his singers and voices of his chorus, whose song created Arda, the world, and the Maiar, entities of god-like powers but bound to Arda and followers/servants of the Valars. Gandalf and Sauron are both Maiar, though Sauron was corrupted by the only evil Valar, Melkoth (whose figure is much like that of Lucifer, the mightiest of the angels).

As far as Arda and middle earth is concerned, Iluvatar doesn't matter much, his actions have no influence on Arda, except for 2 of them: the creation of the first born, the elves, and the second born, the humans.

So, all considered, the Valar can be considered as gods for our purposes (after all their powers have direct effect on Arda) and Maiar are Demi-Gods. In the Era in which The Hobbit and The Lord of The Rings are set, the Valar vowed to influence the material world no more and even removed their land from Arda itself (Valinor in the first and second age was a continent on Arda itself). Only the Maiar (the few of them who still bother) are left, plus the elves which are powerful on their own right.

Mind War.

/thread

Crom wrote:A balrog is pretty much a Greater Daemon, though I guess Eldrad on a good dice roll could mind war a greater daemon and slay it.

The appearance of a Greater Daemon marks the death of worlds.

The Balrog is no Greater Daemon, not by a long shot.

GeckoOBac wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:Tossing this here... Gandalf is actually a demi-god whose powers would equal roughly those of sauron if he were to use them in the fullest.

Based on the actual religious theology intended in lord of the rings there is only one GOD and it is not gandalf nor is it sauron.

god != demi-god. To be completely precise there are 3 levels of "divinity" in the universe described by tolkien: Iluvatar, the creator of all, the Valar, his singers and voices of his chorus, whose song created Arda, the world, and the Maiar, entities of god-like powers but bound to Arda and followers/servants of the Valars. Gandalf and Sauron are both Maiar, though Sauron was corrupted by the only evil Valar, Melkoth (whose figure is much like that of Lucifer, the mightiest of the angels).

As far as Arda and middle earth is concerned, Iluvatar doesn't matter much, his actions have no influence on Arda, except for 2 of them: the creation of the first born, the elves, and the second born, the humans.

So, all considered, the Valar can be considered as gods for our purposes (after all their powers have direct effect on Arda) and Maiar are Demi-Gods. In the Era in which The Hobbit and The Lord of The Rings are set, the Valar vowed to influence the material world no more and even removed their land from Arda itself (Valinor in the first and second age was a continent on Arda itself). Only the Maiar (the few of them who still bother) are left, plus the elves which are powerful on their own right.

that isn't entirely true,

Ulmo still occasionally helps the people of Middle Earth. His power flows through the waters of the world.

its the reason the Ring Wraith didn't try and hop onto the ferry or ford the river when Frodo made his leap. they still fear the power of Ulmo and avoid water. Fire also gives them a similer reaction(and it can destory their physical forms too)