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Just had a slightly more detailed explanation of BoP, now it all makes sense. See, these are the things that need to be general knowledge and not locked in the depths of a codex that you're not going to buy! Lol

Ended up asking the guys at my flgs, they said that officially they're stumped and have no real clue as to how it should be, but if it were to come up in a game then they'd restrict the power to affecting the Justicar only, due to the rules offered by BoP.

So there you have it, even GW themselves are wrong too Lmao

DarknessEternal wrote:Are you guys seriously going to start arguing this again? Do we really need another 12 page thread where no one agrees and no one offers anything new?

*sigh* I guess we do.

DarknessEternal wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Are you guys seriously going to start arguing this again? Do we really need another 12 page thread where no one agrees and no one offers anything new?

*sigh* I guess we do.

That, to me, is the point of a forum. To hash out your view until a mid point, or realisation, is reached so that you can better enjoy your hobby. Otherwise what's the point? To have a bunch of anonymous folk from around the world telling eachother how awesome they are? No thanks!

It would have helped me to understand the points being made, and to realise my error, if the special rules that were being quoted were explained, but meh, whatever. Who cares now, all is well.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kitch - it is a attack on psykers and as such there is only one target - the justicar (or random other model if justicar isnt present)

The unit is not, in itself, a psyker.

The BoP rule makes the unit count as a single psyker. Any attack (ability or what have you) which specificaly targets psykers is resolved against the Justicar etc. So if CoM is used the LD check is resolved against the Justicar, thats fine. But from there it turns into a mire pit of different arguments and interpritations.

For example CoM requires you remove the psyker fom play, but the Justicar is not a psyker by raw. The unit is.

Its also arguable that failing the LD check does not actualy cause the unit to be removed due to the way CoM is worded, any psyker in range that hasent passed a LD check is removed from play. Which is diffrent from "take one wound" or "suffer instant death" if you fail the LD check. Although thats a fairly weak argument.

I think one of the strongest arguments is that to resolve CoM you take two steps:

1) All psykers in range take a LD check.
2) Any psykers in range that havent passed a LD check are removed from play.

If you remove the Justicar and not the squad you have not satisfied no 2), because the squad is still a psyker who has not passed a LD check.

Of cource there is also then there is also the argument that it is not an attack and hence not subject to the BoP rule.

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Basicaly there are no absolute rules or guidelines that tell us how the CoM and BoP rules interact or how to resolve them. Its just a Cluster F***.

I think on the balance of things, there are far more consistant RAW arguments for CoM removing the entire squad. Ignoring the one or two arguments that can be made for testing LD on the squad untill you pass (and removing a number of models equal to the number of failed LD checks).

So basicaly by RaW you remove the squad, RaI they probably intended BoP to work against CoM but we cant be sure. In reality just talk about it with your oponent and dice off if you need too.

BoP says that any effects are resolved against the Justicar.

so if he fails the Ld Test for Crucible then he is the model removed.