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Ok im currently in confusion about how to play this out right.
Say a sqaud of Grey Knights gets affected by "Cruble of Malediction" (for those who dont know what it does, it forces every psyker to take a leadership test and if failed be removed from play) does the test only need to be taken by one of the grey knights (since they are a squad of psykers) or does each modell need to take one individually?
Then how do you go on about removing the unit, since should it be that if the single test is failed does it then mean that the entier unit is removed? Since basiclly every GK is a psyker this can be trully devastating and since the FAQ/Errata dident really give any answers to alot of questions (atleast thats my opinion) I really would like to know.

And will it affect a psychic pilot?

you are going to find that peoples opinions on this are split.

Camp#1 says that upon a failed test the whole unit is removed.

Camp#2 says that on a failed test just the justicar or random member if the justicar is dead is removed.

As for the Vehicles:
Psychic pilot says:
"it is treated as a psyker and is Ld10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and hoods"

Since the CoM is neither a Psychic tests or hood, CoM will not affect vehicles.

Feared that there would be 2 camps, so I guess I need to wait and hope for gw to give an aswer.

Ok great to know that the vehicles atleast can survive it.

From what I can see in the BoP rule, "for... any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the justicar or knight of flame..."

I'd classify the crucible as an attack that targets psykers, so I'd resolve it against the sarge or random member (as per BoP). Since we're not specifically talking about close combat, where "attack" is a very specific term, I take the context to mean "bad things that target psykers" (in case someone wants to split hairs about crucible not being an attack).

The above seems fair and reasonable to me. Id just remove a justicar or a random model if the justicar was dead already.

The above is correct because of what the codex states

the INAT dealt with this problem

◊GK.21C.02 – Q: Can the Dark Eldar Crucible of
Malediction cause Grey Knight vehicles to be
removed from play? What about other rules/abilities
that specifically affect ‘psykers’?
A: No. Grey Knight vehicles only count as being a psyker for
the purposes of resolving psychic tests & psychic hoods and
therefore do not count as psykers in any other circumstance
[clarification].

◊GK.21A.02 – Q: If a Grey Knight unit with
‘Brotherhood of Pyskers’ fails its Ld test against a
Dark Eldar ‘Crucible of Malediction’ is the entire unit
removed from play?
A: No, this counts as an attack that specifically targets
psykers and therefore only the Justicar or Knight of the
Flame would be removed (or a random non-character model
if they are no longer in play) [clarification].

Only the Justicar and no effect on vehicles... as stated above with nice examples lol.

Grey Templar wrote:the INAT dealt with this problem

◊GK.21C.02 – Q: Can the Dark Eldar Crucible of
Malediction cause Grey Knight vehicles to be
removed from play? What about other rules/abilities
that specifically affect ‘psykers’?
A: No. Grey Knight vehicles only count as being a psyker for
the purposes of resolving psychic tests & psychic hoods and
therefore do not count as psykers in any other circumstance
[clarification].

◊GK.21A.02 – Q: If a Grey Knight unit with
‘Brotherhood of Pyskers’ fails its Ld test against a
Dark Eldar ‘Crucible of Malediction’ is the entire unit
removed from play?
A: No, this counts as an attack that specifically targets
psykers and therefore only the Justicar or Knight of the
Flame would be removed (or a random non-character model
if they are no longer in play) [clarification].

Honestly, I'd have struggled to accept this if it were me playing as the DE. The GK's are clearly 'advertised' as all being psykers that "collectively channel their powers in to the justikar". That to me means that all models could be potential targets (though common sense would point out that the Justikar would definitely come off worse, poor chap).

As a work around I'd have made the CoM a blast weapon (grenade stlyee) to save a GK player having to potentially take individual Ld tests for each model in a squad, but then seems as there's only a handful of models to a GK unit maybe that wouldn't be so bad anyway.

On the pilots, either you are a psyker, or you aren't, you can't pick and choose when it suits you best! Instead of removing it outright though, I'd have immobilised it. Or given the option of taking a glance / pene test, acting under the belief that each part of the vehicle is operated by a separate pilot.

kitch102 wrote:
On the pilots, either you are a psyker, or you aren't, you can't pick and choose when it suits you best! Instead of removing it outright though, I'd have immobilised it. Or given the option of taking a glance / pene test, acting under the belief that each part of the vehicle is operated by a separate pilot.

You are a psyker... when you meet the conditions for the special rule. You aren't a psyker when the Crucible affects you, thus it doesn't affect you. There's no "picking and choosing" going on, it's following the rules that state that the vehicle is a psyker when certain conditions are fulfilled.

NOt sure I understand that... black is black, white is white imo. Juat to point out that I'm not arguing with anyone here, just that rule doesn't make sense

kitch102 wrote:NOt sure I understand that... black is black, white is white imo. Juat to point out that I'm not arguing with anyone here, just that rule doesn't make sense

The Psychic pilot rule?

Psychic pilot says:
"it is treated as a psyker and is Ld10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and hoods"

It is treated as a psyker and LD 10 for the purposes mentioned.

Only for Psychic tests and hoods, is it treated as a psyker and LD 10.

For those two situations, and those two situations only, the vehicle is treated as a psyker and is LD10.

Ah ok, think I'm on the same page now. The com forces psykers to take a ld test, which is different to a psychic test. BRIlliant wording on gw's part there.

If its any consolation, BA Furioso Librarians are Psykers at all times.

make those dreds disappear all you want. have a field day

That'd do nicely, though I'd just as sooner give a mandrake a can opener and give 'em free reign ;-P

I just struggled to comprehend how something can be a psyker one minute and not the next. We is good now though innit blud.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ps - apologies to OP for making this almost personal!!! Lol

Remember folks, Marines just Rock Harder, therefore there stuff is generally immune to your stuff. I call it the Rock Harder rule, and it's generally true.

My Librarian is in a vehicle! Wait, I rock so hard, I'm immune to the terror spanning threat!

I have a special rule regaridng psycic pilot, that means crucible may hurt me... wait, I Rock Harder, therefore I'm all but immune to it.

I played Tau through 3rd edition plus and was the first army with the Scout special rule. I used to try and move during my pre game movement to always get the 'always glances rule' and was told by every marine player I played how that didn't work.

Then marines got scout with smoke lauchers and suddenly the rule changes, they just Rock Harder then Xenos.

The fabled rule of "what sells most" I see - don't want to upset that core customer base! I can see my FLGS Manager now... "Yes, OK, fine, have it your way, just buy another Land Raider"... :-P

Think of it like this.


the GKs have access to the best equipment possable.

its safe to assume that they have excellent protection against things which are good against psykers. it makes sense that their psyker vehicles would be immune to things like the Crucible while BA psychic vehicles would not.

if anyone had things which would ignore the Crucible, its the GKs.


it also prevents the Crucible from being a big "I Win" button for DE against GKs. it would potentially result in the GK army being removed if the Gk player rolled really badly for the Ld test. removing the Rhino and its contents is the issue here.

granted with Ld10 it won't happen often, but we all know how the dice are.

Mostly its a wording thing. BA psyker vehicles have LD stats and are psykers, while GK vehicles do not have LD stats and have a special rule that treats them like psykers for only 2 specific tests. This means that BA psyker vehicles are psykers, while GK vehicles are not.

SJ

Grey Templar wrote:Think of it like this.


the GKs have access to the best equipment possable.

its safe to assume that they have excellent protection against things which are good against psykers. it makes sense that their psyker vehicles would be immune to things like the Crucible while BA psychic vehicles would not.

if anyone had things which would ignore the Crucible, its the GKs.


it also prevents the Crucible from being a big "I Win" button for DE against GKs. it would potentially result in the GK army being removed if the Gk player rolled really badly for the Ld test. removing the Rhino and its contents is the issue here.

granted with Ld10 it won't happen often, but we all know how the dice are.

Good point. I'll head off and create the "on / off switch of equipment destruction" then

The Crucible just dose not interact with the BoP well.

By Raw you have to remove the GK squad as any psyker that "Hasn't passed a LD check" is removed from play. The BoP Does not make the Justicar an individual separate psyker nor dose it mean the squad is no longer a psyker.

Edit:

Grey Templar wrote:

the GKs have access to the best equipment possable.

its safe to assume that they have excellent protection against things which are good against psykers. it makes sense that their psyker vehicles would be immune to things like the Crucible while BA psychic vehicles would not.

if anyone had things which would ignore the Crucible, its the GKs.

.

You could equally say that since Dark Eldar are so much more technologically advanced, that the CoM would go through any silly human protection.

Solourus - the crucible is an attack; as such ONLY the justicar (or one other random model) is consdered to be the psyker, so only that model can be removed.

yup, BoP states attacks vs Psykers are resolved vs the Justicar.

Crucible is an attack that targets psykers.

Grey Templar wrote:yup, BoP states attacks vs Psykers are resolved vs the Justicar.

Crucible is an attack that targets psykers.

Does it target? sounds like an area of affect, it doesn't say that it targets, indeed it sounds like a shock-wave, so it would apply to all psykers, so there for it stand to reason that every psyker ( all GK) would have to take the test.

Once per game, in the shooting phase a model with CoM may choose to open it, instead of firing. Every psyker with in 3D6" of the bearer must pass a leadership test or be removed from play as they go stark raving mad. No saves of any kind are allowed.

It doesn't have to roll to hit, like any attack in the game, so therefore I reason that it is not an "attack" in game terms it is a special instance, therefor applying a general rule like the BoP is misguided. It clearly affects them, however this affect does not qualify as an "attack" in game terms.

however, if GKs get hit by something which specifically effects psykers the attack is only resolved against the Justicar, or a randomly chosen normal model if the Justicar is dead.

Crucible is still an attack, just one with an area effect.

Grey Templar wrote:however, if GKs get hit by something which specifically effects psykers the attack is only resolved against the Justicar, or a randomly chosen normal model if the Justicar is dead.

Crucible is still an attack, just one with an area effect.

How is it an attack? what is your reasoning for this? The crux of my argument is that it is not an attack as it does not function as such in game. Your statement is a simple reiteration of your previous point. You list no warrants for it being an attack you simply say it is, I am asking why you believe this and for evidence to support your stance.


From what I can see in the BoP rule, "for... any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the justicar or knight of flame..."

The definition of "attack" is crucial simply if CoM is not an attack it is not covered by BoP and every GK model must take a test.

how can you not define it as an attack?


attack isn't defined in the rules and as such it seems to me that the safest definition is anything which does direct harm to the affected models.

being removed if you fail a psychic test seems to cause harm. the INAT has made their ruling so that is the interpertation at all official national tournaments.


GW has also remained silent on this issue so we can't say they would have a different ruling.

Are you guys seriously going to start arguing this again? Do we really need another 12 page thread where no one agrees and no one offers anything new?

We completely don't.

the INAT has spoken and made their ruling.

Without having a dog in this race I still feel the need to point out that the INAT is completely and utterly irrelevant when it comes to resolving anything.

It is a well-thoughtout, thorough piece of work made by dedicated games that are completely unrelated to GW and thus carries no official weight outside of those that CHOOSE to adopt it.