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Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Insignificant in terms of their military?! But, they took out a Scout Titan, remember!?

So what?
Imperium took out Tyranid Hive Fleet, Massive Ork Warghhh and 1 Chaos Black Crusade in the same time.Tau took down 1 Warhound ( of 4 ) and now thinks that Warhound = Imperator. And again, why do Imperium need rail technology at all? They already have a problem equipping the massive amounts of Guardsman available, Plasma cannons are doing job very well and Astartes have so excellent guns that they don't need Rail at all...
The only ones who can use Rail are assassins, to all others it's' pointless ( to much expensive gun ).

I think iproxtaco was joking. Referencing the aforementioned 'Because!' arguments.

They wouldn't have taken that titan down if Batman were piloting it.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Insignificant in terms of their military?! But, they took out a Scout Titan, remember!?

So what?
Imperium took out Tyranid Hive Fleet, Massive Ork Warghhh and 1 Chaos Black Crusade in the same time.Tau took down 1 Warhound ( of 4 ) and now thinks that Warhound = Imperator. And again, why do Imperium need rail technology at all? They already have a problem equipping the massive amounts of Guardsman available, Plasma cannons are doing job very well and Astartes have so excellent guns that they don't need Rail at all...
The only ones who can use Rail are assassins, to all others it's' pointless ( to much expensive gun ).

I think Mr. Ipraxtaco was using sarcasm.

1hadhq wrote:

nomotog wrote:The IoMs use or not use of railguns has little to do with how well rail guns work. The IoM dosen't really get to pick and chose what they can make. Odds are that only one frogworld knows how to make them (probably less).

frogworlds?

Mars gets a copy usually so it should be always a minimum of 2 forgeworlds in the know.

The Imperium surely has no pick, its the choice of GW to give them the theme of weapons they field.
Necrons have their theme, as have nids orks, etc and railguns weren't used and felt techy enough to give to the new guys.
IoM is always about big explosions, massive hail of rounds, hot and smoking death by fire and laser weapons to make it a bit more sci fi.

The list of imperial weapons is long enough IMO. Some have to be left for the rest.

Yes frog worlds. Where ribbit adapts build all the imperials most powerful jumping base tech. Ya the real reason the IoM dosen't have rail guns or anything that looks like it was made after 1942 is style points really. I said just as much in my first post.

iproxtaco wrote:Insignificant in terms of their military?! But, they took out a Scout Titan, remember!?

Sorry, didn't notice you were joking...

Railguns simply arn't a practical weapon for the IoM to use.


Railguns are limited in their ammo types. its either a slug which can kill one tank, or an explosive round.


a Battlecannon combines both of those abilities in 1 type of ammunition which is both HE and AP so you don't havem to carry 2 different types aboard the tank.

in addition, the Cannon and the vehicle its mounted on can be mass produced. so what if the railgun starts popping them from several miles out of range, it won't kill enough of them before it gets rolled over.



basically, the IoMs tech level can be summed up as a compromise. a compromise between cheap mass production and weapon effectivness. they sacrificed a small portion of weapon effectivness for the ability to drown their enemy in fire.

the point of warfare is to win. in the end, massive numbers combined with the ability to kill your enemy effectivly and cheaply will always triumph over low numbers and advanced tech.

Grey Templar wrote:Railguns simply arn't a practical weapon for the IoM to use.


Railguns are limited in their ammo types. its either a slug which can kill one tank, or an explosive round.


a Battlecannon combines both of those abilities in 1 type of ammunition which is both HE and AP so you don't havem to carry 2 different types aboard the tank.

in addition, the Cannon and the vehicle its mounted on can be mass produced. so what if the railgun starts popping them from several miles out of range, it won't kill enough of them before it gets rolled over.



basically, the IoMs tech level can be summed up as a compromise. a compromise between cheap mass production and weapon effectivness. they sacrificed a small portion of weapon effectivness for the ability to drown their enemy in fire.

the point of warfare is to win. in the end, massive numbers combined with the ability to kill your enemy effectivly and cheaply will always triumph over low numbers and advanced tech.

Calling the battlecanon an anti tank weapon is a bit much. It is almost unable to knock out a tank ( av 13 and above to speak in gameterms). It has more in common with the low velocity/ high calibre guns of early ww2 infantrytanks ( which seems to fit the Leman Russ's inspiration ) than with a true anti tank gun.

KingDeath wrote:
Calling the battlecanon an anti tank weapon is a bit much. It is almost unable to knock out a tank ( av 13 and above to speak in gameterms). It has more in common with the low velocity/ high calibre guns of early ww2 infantrytanks ( which seems to fit the Leman Russ's inspiration ) than with a true anti tank gun.

Calling the battle cannon an anti-tank weapon "is a bit much"...unless it's loaded with the 'standard' anti-tank rounds.

Which, naturally, GW doesn't represent because they think players are idiots and can't comprehend different firing modes like the Missile Launcher.

The Vanquisher Cannon, however, is an anti-tank weapon. That is all it is manufactured to do. Vanquishers have, since their inception, been AT vehicles.

This is what you're not grasping.
Leman Russes are stupidly variable, in their standard form with the Battle Cannon.

Hammerheads are not.

When a Leman Russ Vanquisher is on the field, it is going to be on there in a role similar to the Hammerhead--sniping enemy armored vehicles.

To do that, the LRV gives up the variability and gains effectiveness against one type of enemy.
Just like a LR Exterminator gives up anti-vehicle capabilities in return for being stupidly effective against most forms of enemy infantry and moderately effective against light aircraft/vehicles.

Hammerheads have explosive rounds too, you know. They aren't as rigid in their role as you seem to think.

So what? Vanquisher would still pound him because it has longer range.

And speaking of Hammerhead, what kind of dampeners are we talking about? Because it is anti-grav field tank it must have some huge dampeners otherwise it would miss every 2-3'rd shot.

TrollPie wrote:Hammerheads have explosive rounds too, you know. They aren't as rigid in their role as you seem to think.

Yes. Clearly, the SIX DIFFERENT ROUNDS the standard Leman Russ has--Illumination, Smoke, Infernus, High Explosive, Anti-Tank, and Hunter-Killer Rounds are the same as being able to fire a canister that shatters on impact and seeds the area with bomblets.

Hammerheads, for all intents and purposes, are specialized.

This isn't a difficult concept to understand, at least I don't think it is.

The Leman Russ MAIN BATTLE TANK(aka the STANDARD Leman Russ) has a lot of variation going for it. It can fire Smoke shells to provide cover for an infantry advance, it can fire Infernus shells to clear a bunker out, it can fire High Explosive to demolish that bunker or a structure, it can fire Anti-Tank shells to give it a much better chance at killing enemy tanks(hence the name of the shell, perhaps...), and Hunter-Killer Rounds are stupidly effective at taking out enemy armor.
They're AT shells that 'lock on' to the top armor and penetrate there. The only downside is the Forge World that produced them is gone, and has been for centuries. Stockpiles of them are found occasionally in the Munitorum's possession, and they're issued to veteran crews, but otherwise you don't see them much.

The Hammerhead, by comparison, can swap between a kinetic kill-round...or a smart kinetic kill-round.

Kanluwen wrote:

The Hammerhead, by comparison, can swap between a kinetic kill-round...or a smart kinetic kill-round.

To be fair, the hammerhead also has a variety of turret options, Railhead, Ionhead, TL LB BC head, Fusion Cannon head, missile pod head, etc. I think GW'll be adding some of the FW options when the new codex finally comes around. Yes it's not a varity of ammunition types but it serves the same purpose because each LR won't carry all ammunition loads either.
As for killing the hammerhead, in a long range slugfest, the disruption pod will make the difference; you can't destroy it if you can't see it.

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

The Hammerhead, by comparison, can swap between a kinetic kill-round...or a smart kinetic kill-round.

To be fair, the hammerhead also has a variety of turret options, Railhead, Ionhead, TL LB BC head, Fusion Cannon head, missile pod head, etc. I think GW'll be adding some of the FW options when the new codex finally comes around.
Yes it's not a variety of ammunition types but it serves the same purpose because each LR won't carry all ammunition loads either.

That's your argument? "Well, they can have different weapons in their turrets."
Please. If the Vanquisher isn't a "match" for a Hammerhead's railgun--despite doing the same thing in the same way, just without magnets or stupid amounts of power requirements--then the "We can swap the turret weapons!" argument isn't going to fly.

I know this is hard to comprehend, but the whole point of the Leman Russ isn't the same as the Hammerhead. The Tau, through and through, are a specialist styled army. Each unit has its specific role and doesn't deviate much from it.

Within the Imperial Guard, however, many units have overlapping roles or responsibilities.
Why? Because the specialists can't necessarily be deployed 100% of the time. They improvise...a lot.

As for killing the hammerhead, in a long range slugfest, the disruption pod will make the difference; you can't destroy it if you can't see it.

Disruption Fields aren't Eldar Holo-Fields.

It's ECM spoofing, by all descriptions given of it. It's not like the gunners on Leman Russes are firing laser guided smart rounds--which Disruption Fields would give probably protection from.
The sights on Leman Russes are supposed to be pretty simple, just with NV optics. The Tau would be better off with smoke canisters than some kind of stupidly sophisticated electronic countermeasures.

Kanluwen wrote:

I know this is hard to comprehend, but the whole point of the Leman Russ isn't the same as the Hammerhead. The Tau, through and through, are a specialist styled army. Each unit has its specific role and doesn't deviate much from it. Within the Imperial Guard, however, many units have overlapping roles or responsibilities.
Why? Because the specialists can't necessarily be deployed 100% of the time. They improvise...a lot.

Condescending tone aside, it's not difficult to comprehend. You're saying that the Leman Russ is the fabled exception to the rule, "Jack of all trades, master of none". Ok. Whatever. My point was that hammerheads have just as much flexibility as any other tank in the game.

You're right, Tau army units have specialized roles; it's different from the half-arsed equipped IG but it works and pulse rifles have killed more than a few rhinos so there is some flexibility for the Tau as well.

Disruption Fields aren't Eldar Holo-Fields.

It's ECM spoofing, by all descriptions given of it. It's not like the gunners on Leman Russes are firing laser guided smart rounds--which Disruption Fields would give probably protection from.
The sights on Leman Russes are supposed to be pretty simple, just with NV optics. The Tau would be better off with smoke canisters than some kind of stupidly sophisticated electronic countermeasures.

Fluffwise, I don't know; you know quite a bit more about fluff than I do but my codex, page 30 says that the DPs "throws out distortion images in both the visual and magnetic spectra, making it hard to target at range."

Not sure how an Eldar holo-field works but just the wording alone sounds similar to me.

Before this degenerates into another Tau argument thread, I'll leave now. We can take this up in the next Tau hate thread that Brother Coa starts.

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

I know this is hard to comprehend, but the whole point of the Leman Russ isn't the same as the Hammerhead. The Tau, through and through, are a specialist styled army. Each unit has its specific role and doesn't deviate much from it. Within the Imperial Guard, however, many units have overlapping roles or responsibilities.
Why? Because the specialists can't necessarily be deployed 100% of the time. They improvise...a lot.

Condescending tone aside, it's not difficult to comprehend. You're saying that the Leman Russ is the fabled exception to the rule, "Jack of all trades, master of none". Ok. Whatever. My point was that hammerheads have just as much flexibility as any other tank in the game.

And as I keep saying, using the game as a basis for a fluff argument is silly.
The Leman Russ Main Battle Tank(notice: MAIN BATTLE TANK. Not the Vanquisher, Exterminator, Executioner, whatever. Those are all specialists and lose that fabled exception in favor of gaining speciality equipment) can perform the tasks that requires the Tau to swap out the entire turret mounting on the Hammerhead.

The Imperium, for the most part, can just swap shells to gain a small measure of what the Tau specialty has. In some areas the LRMBT might be more effective, but in others it might be far less effective--unless it's one of the specialist LR variants, which will sacrifice that jack of all trades bit.

You're right, Tau army units have specialized roles; it's different from the half-arsed equipped IG but it works and pulse rifles have killed more than a few rhinos so there is some flexibility for the Tau as well.

The funny thing is that, goin' by fluff, the Guard is just as well-equipped as your average Fire Warrior. It's not represented in game because can you imagine a horde of 4+ infantry slogging its way towards you, firing the entire way?

Disruption Fields aren't Eldar Holo-Fields.

It's ECM spoofing, by all descriptions given of it. It's not like the gunners on Leman Russes are firing laser guided smart rounds--which Disruption Fields would give probably protection from.
The sights on Leman Russes are supposed to be pretty simple, just with NV optics. The Tau would be better off with smoke canisters than some kind of stupidly sophisticated electronic countermeasures.

Fluffwise, I don't know; you know quite a bit more about fluff than I do but my codex, page 30 says that the DPs "throws out distortion images in both the visual and magnetic spectra, making it hard to target at range."

Most likely, if there is a visual component--it's going to be like the Predator cloaking field.
Even more likely, it won't work that well since a railgun shot leaves a blazing afterimage when it's fired.

Not sure how an Eldar holo-field works but just the wording alone sounds similar to me.

The holo-field is supposed to project a holographic 'mirage' of sorts of the vehicle, throwing off the enemy with ECMs and visual representations.

Before this degenerates into another Tau argument thread, I'll leave now.

The whole concept of this thread is really a "Tau argument", so it should be okay since we're not simply throwing out "DIE TAU DIE!"--but rather are having a rather reasonable discussion.

This thread has officially gone full circle.

Locking now to prevent a doughnut being dug in the Internet.