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Yes, I've faced the uber-attacks corsairs block.. it's literally insane.

Obviously, Mindrazor is a must-stop-at-all-costs on that unit, but it's hard to do every turn!

I love it how the 8th edition apologists state that it is the best edition ever, and if you are just willing to change alot of the core rules of the game, then people will still come to your tournaments...

That really is the mark of a great ruleset!

What? You might want to go look at some tournament results. Vampire counts and Daemons are still the top dogs for tournament play (alone with Dark Elves). VC are definitely the most won with tournament army by far in this edition (even though they only have one build). Skaven and Lizards are very good yes, but are still not in the top 3.

Actually, I attend a lot of tournaments. Dark Elves are unquestionably the top army right now. Skaven are generally right on their heels for battle points, with Lizardmen behind them. Daemons have not won anything out of a Hardboyz spot in a long time, and that had a lot to do with the wonky scenarios (and Kairos, who most formats ban outright for good reason). Vampires have not won anything major since well before the end of 7th, when Dark Elves and Skaven started to take complete control of the scene. In fact, the largest fantasy tournament in North America (Quake City Rumble, with over 100 participants) saw the top battle points go to those three armies, almost exclusively. Daemons and Vamps were not even within sniffing distance of the top battle points, in fact I think I was among the highest finishing DoC players there this year and I went 3-2. Dark Elves and Skaven had already dethroned DoC and VC well before 8th came out, but the new editions targetted nerfs just nailed the coffin shut on that. If you have not seen the Life Slaan + Multi Steg list, you won't understand why it is such a powerful army, as well.

These points are irrelevent to the larger issue, however. Lets assume I am a moron and you are absolutely correct and the top three armies are still what they were midway through 7th (VC,DE, DoC). You are still in a situation where the top three armies are from books that were done on a different power scale than the new Jervisized fantasy books, with no revisions likely for years to come. It would be anogulous to me pulling out my second edition Nid book and playing with those rules while everyone else is forced to roll with the Cruddace crap; hardly a level playing field.

As for ECT, the last thing I want is armchair rules lawyers trying to rewrite the rules. It just irritates people and confuses them. Line item bans on the abusive things? Sure, thats quick and neat. Redoing the force orgs and puting all sorts of esoteric restrictions just moves the goal posts and people who are good at math will just find a new way to break the system anyhow. No one looks at ECT style restrictions and thinks "oh boy, I can play my fluffy all sea guard army". They look at it and go "Well, this army flies under the radar and is still broken, so thats what I am taking!". Meanwhile the people who normally bring compy lists end up getting penalized because of wierd restrictions.

Free beer?

Phazael- you talk of out of date army books being powerful, but mention skaven as right behind DE at the top- and they came out when 8th edition was known to be coming, meaning they are the first book designed for it.

But other than that, I agree with much of what you say. I think you're rating daemons too low, but that's the local meta affecting me, too.

To the OP:
What has made somewhat of a draw is modifying the rules set. Showcasecomics in Granite Run does this all the time. Clark's goal is to get people rolling dice again for WFB. His events draw out some of the vetern GT players in the area, who right now do not think 8th is fun for them. I was slated to attend his event, until real life hit and the watermain blew.

I'll give this as guidance: what drew me to his event along with a few club mates, was trying to meet gamers in the middle. He realized people didn't like 8th in the area. People had their own reasons. He has tried banning some characters, standardizing terrain, augmenting army lists, restricting some lists and adding to others. These are things to consider.

GW Voorhees in the NJ area almost strictly runs team tournments. For some reason team tournments seem more fun and the more casual person, or the person whose not gung ho for 8th may consider going. Me personally, i'll goto a event without prize support if its an interesting event.

Think about your audience
-what do they want to see? what will make them come to the event
-how many patron's are at your shop in the first place? if you have 8 guys, run something all 8 will attend. if you have 30 guys, run something they will want.
-turn 1 challenges: i have seen guys show up at a 5 round event, just because someone challenged them to a game. it makes event more fun.
-prize support: you can run a perfectly good event, without it. or even with just a little. go with an regiment box for the winner, a blister for 2nd, paints for best painted. if they event is fun or interesting, people will go.

Corsairs may not have been the best example, but that does not invalidate my point. When you restrict units that are miles better than the rest, you increase flexibility and increase the playability of mediocre choices. Even if the restrictions aren't perfect, it still helps create a more level playing field.

A better example would be:

If you restrict to 1 hydra, those 175 points that would have gone to hydra 2 can reasonably go into shades, characters, cold one knights, black guard, chariots, witch elves or more core. I doubt any two lists will have the same replacement for those 175 points. I do bet, however, that most lists would have had that second hydra if you allowed it. That sounds like a lot more variety to me.



Phazael, I'm not sure I understand your last point. There is nothing confusing about the ETC system if you spend 5 minutes to read the restrictions. You could make the system be completely unconfusing by going back to TLOS vs. the height system they use. The point of an ETC style comp *IS* to redistribute power. Some armies will get better, some will get worse. Some builds will get better, some will get worse. However, on the whole, the power level stabilizes much better than in an unrestricted environment. At ETC, a much greater variety of armies had a solid chance of winning the game, so that sounds like a success to me. I'm not sure how people who bring "compy" armies get penalized by these restrictions. If they do get penalized, obviously their list had an over-the-top element. Yes, taking 2 hydras if the rest of your army is a nekkid master and nekkid spears might be a compy / soft army. However, you can't address every unit combination, so need to make some blanket assumptions. I think you would be hard pressed to look at the ETC restrictions and say that any army got restricted in such a way that would hurt a truly compy build. Maybe you can find one example, but that is probably fine, given the overall help the system caused. Sure, you can't take your all throgg troll list, but I think that's a trade off that effects 1-2 people and makes a more even game for the other 98.

Unfortunately, I do not have the models painted, otherwise I would show you that VC without targeted restrictions are very powerful. Maybe I will work on some ghouls for next year's broadside bash. However, I do not think debating the top 3 matters. I'd argue that you can compete fine with DE, VC, Liz, DoC and Skaven in an unrestricted environment with no room to complain if you choose any of the above armies.

Well, if you have anyone's ear who make the ETC rules, maybe you can lobby for only certain special characters to be banned. That in itself is just an easy example of how it is being overly restrictive... most special characters are NOT overpowered, yet ALL are banned.

But I am open to ETC, I just wish it went for more general comp rather than army-specific.

However, not facing several Hellpit Abominations has a nice ring to it, too (but you can easily solve that by "no duplicate rares" across the board, while allowing a few armies 2-for-1s)

Phazael wrote:

What? You might want to go look at some tournament results. Vampire counts and Daemons are still the top dogs for tournament play (alone with Dark Elves). VC are definitely the most won with tournament army by far in this edition (even though they only have one build). Skaven and Lizards are very good yes, but are still not in the top 3.

Actually, I attend a lot of tournaments. Dark Elves are unquestionably the top army right now. Skaven are generally right on their heels for battle points, with Lizardmen behind them. Daemons have not won anything out of a Hardboyz spot in a long time, and that had a lot to do with the wonky scenarios (and Kairos, who most formats ban outright for good reason). Vampires have not won anything major since well before the end of 7th, when Dark Elves and Skaven started to take complete control of the scene. In fact, the largest fantasy tournament in North America (Quake City Rumble, with over 100 participants) saw the top battle points go to those three armies, almost exclusively. Daemons and Vamps were not even within sniffing distance of the top battle points, in fact I think I was among the highest finishing DoC players there this year and I went 3-2. Dark Elves and Skaven had already dethroned DoC and VC well before 8th came out, but the new editions targetted nerfs just nailed the coffin shut on that. If you have not seen the Life Slaan + Multi Steg list, you won't understand why it is such a powerful army, as well.

These points are irrelevent to the larger issue, however. Lets assume I am a moron and you are absolutely correct and the top three armies are still what they were midway through 7th (VC,DE, DoC). You are still in a situation where the top three armies are from books that were done on a different power scale than the new Jervisized fantasy books, with no revisions likely for years to come. It would be anogulous to me pulling out my second edition Nid book and playing with those rules while everyone else is forced to roll with the Cruddace crap; hardly a level playing field.

As for ECT, the last thing I want is armchair rules lawyers trying to rewrite the rules. It just irritates people and confuses them. Line item bans on the abusive things? Sure, thats quick and neat. Redoing the force orgs and puting all sorts of esoteric restrictions just moves the goal posts and people who are good at math will just find a new way to break the system anyhow. No one looks at ECT style restrictions and thinks "oh boy, I can play my fluffy all sea guard army". They look at it and go "Well, this army flies under the radar and is still broken, so thats what I am taking!". Meanwhile the people who normally bring compy lists end up getting penalized because of wierd restrictions.

Maybe wherever you are located VC and Daemons suck, but I was talking more along the lines of worldwide tournaments. VC armies and daemons have been smashing face over in the UK up until recently when they have been getting hit with the comp bat.

Bat Manuel wrote:What are the top tier armies these days anyway?

Demons with a monkey to roll dice for you.
Demons
Demons
VC
Demons played by your little brother
Lizards
DarkElves
Demons played by a 3rd grader
Chaos
Skaven

Order in which you put rats, chaos, DE, Lizards is open to debate. Give the 3rd grader a monkey and he beats VC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RiTides wrote:To the OP: mikhaila running a lowhammer with major (yet broad) restrictions got me to go to my first fantasy GT, and first fantasy tourney at all in some time.

I believe it was: No duplicate rares, no triple specials, no unit over 400 points, many #6 spells banned, certain special characters banned, some magic items banned, and daemons of chaos banned altogether (as they rule the local, or not so local, meta... and won all 3 top spots at the 'Ard Boyz semis at his store). Also a limit on how many warmachines or missile troops you could take. Damaged and fleeing units gave up some VPs.

They're listed here:
http://www.showcasecomicsandgames.net/dakkacon.htm

Slightly less popular was the "Freeman" for wood elves and free Green Knight for Brettonians. The free monster for beastmen and ogres seemed to have much less of an impact. But I thought it was a fun thing to try to help the underpowered codexes

Anyway, I think you have to get creative to draw out more folks discouraged with the new rules... but it can be done. I'm trying a tourney using more traditional rules this month in the Battle for Blobs Park, but I'd definitely love another crack at the type of event shown above.

We'll be using the Lowhammer rules for Border Raids this year Steve. That comes up in November 19 and 20. Registration is live on the website http://www.showcasecomicsandgames.net/apps/webstore/ I'm tweaking the ruleset a bit and will be announcing it around on the various boards this weekend.

Keeping most restrictions, but will be tinkering with the 'Freeman' monsters for the underpowered armies. Folks gave lots of good feedback last year on that. Ogres look to be much better than last edition so we'll be moving them out of the basement slot and up into the rest of the pack. I'm also looking for a good time in October for a warmup tournament using the same rules. So there's a couple of chances for you to come up.

If you guys are allowing Kairos to be used, then I can see why you think DoC are a top army, but the actual data does not bear that out, at least in the US. Outside of Hardboyz, Daemons have not taken anything resembling a major generalship or overall award in almost two years. In fact Tides of War over a year ago in Arizona is the last one that I was aware of. Even at the LA area Hardboyz Semis which allowed Kairos, quad hydra delivery system cruised to first place over like five Kairos armies. I think your local metagame just has not adjusted yet, honestly.

But my original point stands, whatever armies you guys think are the top seeds, they are ALL from the tail end of 7th edition and likely with us for a long time (only Orks and Empire see regular turn arounds) with their expanded magic item lists, and other things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS- and again, Lowhammer, like ECT is just moving the goalposts on whats broken. In that environment, A guy can show up with a bunch of chaos wariors and just steamroll people, because he knows he won't be facing things that hinder him, due to the restrictions.

mikhaila wrote:

Bat Manuel wrote:What are the top tier armies these days anyway?

Demons with a monkey to roll dice for you.
Demons
Demons
VC
Demons played by your little brother
Lizards
DarkElves
Demons played by a 3rd grader
Chaos
Skaven

Order in which you put rats, chaos, DE, Lizards is open to debate. Give the 3rd grader a monkey and he beats VC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RiTides wrote:To the OP: mikhaila running a lowhammer with major (yet broad) restrictions got me to go to my first fantasy GT, and first fantasy tourney at all in some time.

I believe it was: No duplicate rares, no triple specials, no unit over 400 points, many #6 spells banned, certain special characters banned, some magic items banned, and daemons of chaos banned altogether (as they rule the local, or not so local, meta... and won all 3 top spots at the 'Ard Boyz semis at his store). Also a limit on how many warmachines or missile troops you could take. Damaged and fleeing units gave up some VPs.

They're listed here:
http://www.showcasecomicsandgames.net/dakkacon.htm

Slightly less popular was the "Freeman" for wood elves and free Green Knight for Brettonians. The free monster for beastmen and ogres seemed to have much less of an impact. But I thought it was a fun thing to try to help the underpowered codexes

Anyway, I think you have to get creative to draw out more folks discouraged with the new rules... but it can be done. I'm trying a tourney using more traditional rules this month in the Battle for Blobs Park, but I'd definitely love another crack at the type of event shown above.

We'll be using the Lowhammer rules for Border Raids this year Steve. That comes up in November 19 and 20. Registration is live on the website http://www.showcasecomicsandgames.net/apps/webstore/ I'm tweaking the ruleset a bit and will be announcing it around on the various boards this weekend.

Keeping most restrictions, but will be tinkering with the 'Freeman' monsters for the underpowered armies. Folks gave lots of good feedback last year on that. Ogres look to be much better than last edition so we'll be moving them out of the basement slot and up into the rest of the pack. I'm also looking for a good time in October for a warmup tournament using the same rules. So there's a couple of chances for you to come up.

I wish my local group could handle those kind of changes.. They're adverse to any kind of changes EVEN ones that change aspects of 8th ed that forces them not to play in events (Dont ask me how that works.. sounds like just excuses not to show up to me)

Phazael wrote: I think your local metagame just has not adjusted yet, honestly.

Yes, I'm sure the East coast is an area of few players and a stunted metagame, we look forward to catching up to the left coast someday.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirasu wrote: wish my local group could handle those kind of changes.. They're adverse to any kind of changes EVEN ones that change aspects of 8th ed that forces them not to play in events (Dont ask me how that works.. sounds like just excuses not to show up to me)

Oh, part of my local group hates any change at all.) I don't even bother to try to please everyone, and assume that therr will be people that disagree with any format of tournament that I run. I change up formats based on input from local or not-so-local players, and run events with the goal of the people attending having fun. People that don't attend I can't worry about. WFB is a bit easier to mess around with at the moment because it does have so many unbalancing effects that make it tougher to run tournaments. The lowhammer format was put in to appeal to the people have armies besides VC/Daemons/DE/Chaos, and to give the people with those armies a bit different challenge.

Run the format you want, let people choose whether to come or not.

Yeah I know.. I would do that in a heartbeat if there has been any indication over the years that outsiders would travel to the area for events. For now I've switched to 3 month intervals and will be promoting it more heavily

BIG PERK! You can drink BEER at legions if you bring a red cup

VC challenge hammer has been thrown!!!!

Watch out west coast. You're in from VC domination!

Kirasu wrote:Yeah I know.. I would do that in a heartbeat if there has been any indication over the years that outsiders would travel to the area for events. For now I've switched to 3 month intervals and will be promoting it more heavily

BIG PERK! You can drink BEER at legions if you bring a red cup

Does the RED cup make them go down faster?