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Kanluwen wrote:
But I will also say that some of these "unacceptable cases" that people talk about(air bubbles in cloaks or flat surfaces which are easily fixed, for example) are so ridiculously blown out of proportion that it kind of skews any real complaints.

And why the hell exactly should we repair them ourselves when GW should have made sure they were 100% in the first place.
You said i was accusiing you of being a GW fanboy, rentboy, whatever you want to call it. I wasnt but you hve now shown yourself to be exactly that.
This whole thread is about the unacceptable quality of finecast, those examples you state are unacceptable. If you are happy to bend over and let GW tell you how you are taking it then fine; that is your choice but its not ours.

Thare1774 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Metal has had just as many flaws as Finecast. The flaws are not the same by and large(you won't find air bubbles, for example), but they definitely exist.

You are a fool if you really stand behind this statement. More people have had problems with finecast models than not, at least I can speak for my area and a ton of people here on dakka. I myself had to exchange a box of striking scorpions 3 times, a shadowseer 2 times, a Lelith Hesperax 2 times, a warboss 1 time, and dark reapers box 2 times. About half of these happened at the beginning of finecast release but the other half were well past the first run, every finecast model I have bought has had to be exchanged until finally I found a set that was acceptable but still worse shape and required more repair work than an average metal model. I have never had to exchange a metal model, and I have spent thousands on models in general, im not new to the hobby. Its unacceptable for any company (let alone one as big as GW) to put out a product that they claim to be superior (and raise prices on most of the models) and have it be anything but outstanding. What you are forgetting is they are supposed to be PROFESSIONALS in the field of casting minis. Ive cast detailed minis on my own at home and gotten better results than most finecast models ive bought and I dont have even a small fraction of the resources GW has. They have the money and resources to pay for an actual working quality control department, which either they dont have at all or the people or machines they use to do it dont work. They make alot of money off us and everyone who buys their products should get the highest quality miniature that can be produced for the prices we all pay. It doesnt matter if they have a good exchange policy, we shouldnt have to constantly exchange products due to low quality because its not good business. If you paid a plumber to fix your toilet and he screwed up 3 or 4 times until he got it right you would be pissed. It wouldnt matter if he was nice about it and admitted his mistakes, it would still be a bad experience and you wouldnt hire that plumber again. Its the same with any company selling a service or product whether its minis or cheeseburgers or a toilet repair. GW needs to fix there product

Is he really a fool or have you just not taken off your GW coloured glasses?
I can barely recall buying any multi part GW metal product that did not require at least some green stuff to patch up the gaps.
Again something we should never have had to do.

I have included the UK fit for purpose guidance. it should also be noted that having spoken to my daughter (CAB Advisor) that even if issues crop up within 6 months (sometimes a year) you are still entitled to a full refund or repair etc.
My daughter also points out that in these days of litigation gone crazy GW are off their heads to put a Eavy Metal painted version next to the "on the sprue" version as 99% of us will never be able to achieve that level.
Now that would have been impossible to argue 5 years ago that because i cannot achieve that level i should get a refund but nowdays she says that she would be 50 /50 that; that particualr argument could now be won.

Fit for Purpose. http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-goods/understanding-the-sale-of-goods-act/your-rights/

Another point here....It could be argued that GW should have to drop the Finecast tag until such times as it lives up to their claims.

Deefect wrote:Yay! Another finecast bash threat, weeee..

Quoth the chap named Deefect
Oh precious Irony, how many ways are thy wonders?

Steelmage99 wrote:

As for turning production flaws into features, you must be absolutely insane. In no way is that acceptable.
Should I wish to add battle damage or cutting horns off of my models, it should be my choice.
It can never be a redeeming feature or an excuse for GW latest failure, that I can pretend it is intentional.

Well if it's free to keep the defective products (which some people pointed out based on their experience), why not make the most of what you got if you're gonna have an additional model anyway? It's not insanity: it's resourcefulness.

starsdawn wrote:

sebigboss79 wrote:Well it stands to reason that I expect a perfect model. Especially if I am supposed to pay a 30 % surcharge since changing to a cheaper material. What I despise is "workshops" that suggest the buyer is responsible to fix minis that GW screwed up. Sorry guys, not MY job.

GW will never admit they screwed up and there are only two ways to make them pay for their ignorance

a) Don´t buy at all. There is enough other games and manufacturers out there,.
b) Exchange your Shicecast untill they deliver what they are supposed to.

Choice is your but stop whining about "how bad GW" is while you still run there for your minis. Thats childish.

I think it's more childish to not point out wrongs when there ARE wrongs. It's just like saying "Once at Mcdonald's they didn't upsize my meal even though I specifically asked them to upsize it, so I'm not eating at Mcdonald's ever AGAIN." Bit of an overreaction, right? So GW screwed up Finecast, SO WE SHOULD NEVER PLAY WARHAMMER AGAIN AND NEVER BUY THE DECENT PLASTICS AND OTHER MODELS AND EVERYTHING. See how silly it is?

People buy from GW because despite the price and some screw ups, they do love the models, they have invested on armies of them AND they have friends who play it? Ever tried buying a game and nobody wants to play it? No? If everyone wants to play another game, good for you! But others would like to stay on the games with a larger player base, meaning they have more potential people to play against.

I think you missed my point entirely.

I did not negate GWs fantastic works especially the latest PLASTIC releases. But then again, with over 30 years of experience I would rather expect them to get better with experience.

Yes I also play other games, may the Emperors wrath cleanse me and guess what: The smaller the company, the more decent the management behaves towards their clients. Believe it or not but GW is simply so successfull because

a) they have been in business since the Stone Age.
b) they have built a broad player base
c) they surpress any other notion of the hobby rigurously. (Litigation against cmpetitors and fansites)

There is no problem to start a new game as long as people are not too narrowminded not to recognize there are other companies than GW. Most with better service and rulesets.
Of course people have different taste in miniatures, thats why we live in a free world (although GW tries to shut markets while using cheap production options themselves = hypocritical) and can buy what we want. GW does not even have a decent balance in 40k. The newest army automatically is better to frustrate veterans into buying more stuff or a whole new army. I think that behaviour IS despisable. Not to mention it is only about selling some starter sets to "kiddies" that give up after they realise how much work you have to put in. Thus sales have been declining for years. (15 % price increase does NOT lead to a 1 % increase in sales. It should get you 15 % more sales.)

Anouncing a total revolution in miniatures and then releasing such a failure to the market is yet a new record they set. And again: You expect ME the customer to repair such failures. Sorry, NO F..ing way! If you can´t get it right, don´t bother . Don´t tell people to fix your mistakes, don´t call them features and paint them = EPIC FAIL.To get the right proportion of this. I have been wargaming since the 80s so I do believe I know a little about what I am saying. GW is declining because they lost touch with their true customer base and have become a vending machine trying to run on empty. A friend of mine (total fanboy) dropped GW completely last month due to their behaviour and started FoW.

Recently I dealt with Chris Lynch ordering some of his Cold Navy spaceships (Cruiser, 2 Destroyers, 6Frigates). As tey took longer he simply put in a Battlecruiser for free. Now when has GW done this or reduced prices? I love wargaming but not with an all overseeing GW that tells me I have to fix their crap and buy more, more ..MORE. I sincerely hope they can come back to a more sensible behaviour, pricing and customer service attitude. But then, I doubt they will unless AFTER filing bancruptcy (which won´t happen shortly).

winterdyne wrote:'In our total period of metal production we've had 35,000 returned miniatures. We've only had 20,000 Finecast miniatures returned in the total production period for that, it's obviously *much* better'.

I know you said you were bein funny, but did GW really put out a statement like this? If so I am utterly speachless

^ that was GW's simple marketing lies. trying to keep Finecast products up and running.

'Total period of metal production' ... when was the first GW-produced metal miniatures launched? that was 30 or a bit more years. If using average product return per year. the figure is still alot better compared to '20,000 Finecast miniatures returned in the total production period'

doing Mathematics and GW needs to recall EVERY Finecast product available and fix the QC/ production techniques problem first.
before someone else begin using a forbidden art to earn profits for him/her self. =^.^=

So, let us say since 1988 to 2011, (my present record for the gaming of GW), 35.000 metals have been returned. That means 1, 346 or so minis returned for defects in a 26yr period as an example.
Finecast has been out for say a few months and they have had already an admitted to 20,000 minis returned in less than a year

So, 1,346 minis a year, over the last 26yrs.

Now we have 20,000 minis in just one yearly quarter!

That statement was a major mistake on their part.
Finecast, performance wise is not looking a good sales pitch. I have seen and heard of really nice casts folks got, but they still will have the minor flaws in those as well.

Yes, the metals were never perfect either, a friend who worked at the US site in Maryland noted the speed at which they were ordered by their overseers to pop the minis still hot and soft out of the molds to fill the orders and trucks up.

I can only imagine how fast they are making the workers in China do the same for the finecast and with 20,000 defects reported alone in the first quarter it was launched? Very sad.

@Gbdarkangel- the only time I've ever HAD to use green stuff on metal was to fill gaps in joints. It is such a small easy to achieve process that I've never even considered it a flaw. You cannot compare the major problems with finecast, like a missing face, to a simple gap fill on a metal model. GW colored glasses? I'm just simply pointing out that metal models do not have a fraction of the problems that I and a large percentage of gamers have had with finecast. We shouldn't be used to test out their product and give them feedback on what they've done wrong, before they released FC it should have been at least on the same level as the metal models when it comes to quality. I don't know why anyone defends GW when it comes to this subject, its not even an argument. It is a fact that the quality of the finecast models is poor far too often. metal models, though "less detailed", have but a small fraction of the problems let alone major problems like missing important details from miscasting that a lot of people don't have the skill to fix.

Surely they never said that about returns?
I mean, even GW can't be that stupid.

I would like to see a source for the statement.

Winterdyne wrote:'In our total period of metal production we've had 35,000 returned miniatures. We've only had 20,000 Finecast miniatures returned in the total production period for that, it's obviously *much* better'.

This is not a quote, merely a vague attempt at Sunday morning humour.

Bolded for emphasis. I don't think Winterdyne wants to be quoted as an official GW source.

I'm interested to see where that statement came from, I wouldn't doubt it as fact though. The numbers at least sound feasible worldwide

Thanks Kanners
Had a skim through but couldn't find the post.

I don't mind being quoted as an official source for GW

Here is the latest GW news.
As of midnight 20th September 2011 Games Workshop will cease trading.
All stocks of goods will be given to childrens' homes across the country

Wonder how long it will be before that is taken as fact on the internets

Having primed my first finecast model (which is actually two that I combined, and therefore Very expensive) and discovering so many more airbubbles than I had realized were there... I'm pretty much going to be giving up on it, too.

Sigh...

Will consider it sometime in the future when GW has worked out the kinks, maybe, but the price and lack of quality have killed my (originally quite significant) interest in it.

sebigboss79 wrote:

starsdawn wrote:

sebigboss79 wrote:Well it stands to reason that I expect a perfect model. Especially if I am supposed to pay a 30 % surcharge since changing to a cheaper material. What I despise is "workshops" that suggest the buyer is responsible to fix minis that GW screwed up. Sorry guys, not MY job.

GW will never admit they screwed up and there are only two ways to make them pay for their ignorance

a) Don´t buy at all. There is enough other games and manufacturers out there,.
b) Exchange your Shicecast untill they deliver what they are supposed to.

Choice is your but stop whining about "how bad GW" is while you still run there for your minis. Thats childish.

I think it's more childish to not point out wrongs when there ARE wrongs. It's just like saying "Once at Mcdonald's they didn't upsize my meal even though I specifically asked them to upsize it, so I'm not eating at Mcdonald's ever AGAIN." Bit of an overreaction, right? So GW screwed up Finecast, SO WE SHOULD NEVER PLAY WARHAMMER AGAIN AND NEVER BUY THE DECENT PLASTICS AND OTHER MODELS AND EVERYTHING. See how silly it is?

People buy from GW because despite the price and some screw ups, they do love the models, they have invested on armies of them AND they have friends who play it? Ever tried buying a game and nobody wants to play it? No? If everyone wants to play another game, good for you! But others would like to stay on the games with a larger player base, meaning they have more potential people to play against.

I think you missed my point entirely.

I did not negate GWs fantastic works especially the latest PLASTIC releases. But then again, with over 30 years of experience I would rather expect them to get better with experience.

Yes I also play other games, may the Emperors wrath cleanse me and guess what: The smaller the company, the more decent the management behaves towards their clients. Believe it or not but GW is simply so successfull because

a) they have been in business since the Stone Age.
b) they have built a broad player base
c) they surpress any other notion of the hobby rigurously. (Litigation against cmpetitors and fansites)

There is no problem to start a new game as long as people are not too narrowminded not to recognize there are other companies than GW. Most with better service and rulesets.
Of course people have different taste in miniatures, thats why we live in a free world (although GW tries to shut markets while using cheap production options themselves = hypocritical) and can buy what we want. GW does not even have a decent balance in 40k. The newest army automatically is better to frustrate veterans into buying more stuff or a whole new army. I think that behaviour IS despisable. Not to mention it is only about selling some starter sets to "kiddies" that give up after they realise how much work you have to put in. Thus sales have been declining for years. (15 % price increase does NOT lead to a 1 % increase in sales. It should get you 15 % more sales.)

Anouncing a total revolution in miniatures and then releasing such a failure to the market is yet a new record they set. And again: You expect ME the customer to repair such failures. Sorry, NO F..ing way! If you can´t get it right, don´t bother . Don´t tell people to fix your mistakes, don´t call them features and paint them = EPIC FAIL.To get the right proportion of this. I have been wargaming since the 80s so I do believe I know a little about what I am saying. GW is declining because they lost touch with their true customer base and have become a vending machine trying to run on empty. A friend of mine (total fanboy) dropped GW completely last month due to their behaviour and started FoW.

Recently I dealt with Chris Lynch ordering some of his Cold Navy spaceships (Cruiser, 2 Destroyers, 6Frigates). As tey took longer he simply put in a Battlecruiser for free. Now when has GW done this or reduced prices? I love wargaming but not with an all overseeing GW that tells me I have to fix their crap and buy more, more ..MORE. I sincerely hope they can come back to a more sensible behaviour, pricing and customer service attitude. But then, I doubt they will unless AFTER filing bancruptcy (which won´t happen shortly).

What point of "don't whine while you're still buying GW products" did I miss?

Actually no issues with my Finecast models.

1. People buy from GW because despite the price and some screw ups, they do love the models, they have invested on armies of them
2. AND they have friends who play it? Ever tried buying a game and nobody wants to play it? No? If everyone wants to play another game, good for you! But others would like to stay on the games with a larger player base, meaning they have more potential people to play against.

1. They gon dun me wroang but ah loves them so muach ah just cant git up an quit em

2. Thank goodness for peer group pressure.
It's what fuels the GW engine and keeps it ticking over.

Point you're trying to make being....?

You know what, I started typing a reasonable answer to your question.
But that flashing avatar is so annoying I no longer want to stay on this page.

Right.

Because you need to stare at an avatar to type and make a reasonable point.

It doesn't even show when you hit the reply button and start typing, y'know, a reply.

Please come back when you ran out of cute excuses and maybe we can have a reasonable conversation.

I guess not everyone looks at Finecast the way I do. Let me give my latest example :

I bought a finecast Tyranid Hive Tyrant about a month ago. Upon recieving it, and looking over the model, I noticed that there was a miscast of the spikes on his left leg. I called GW, and asked for a replacement leg. I told them I would send them pics, or send the part back to them if need be, but they told me not to worry about it and they would get a replacement part out to me shortly. A few days later, I recieve a brand new Hive Tyrant. So now I have 2 Finecast Hive tyrants for the price of 1. The one thats leg was messed up is still perfectly useable, and I got twice the amount of bits that come along with the Tyrant. Also I did a comparison, and the details are much crisper on the finecast vs the metal, and the model is 10000 times easier to put together.

I am not saying that GW is perfect, nor am I saying that it is excusable for them to put out this resin material with so many defects, but at the end of the day, if its messed up you will get another one, and if that one is messed up you will get another after that. Sure, you may have to wait a bit to finally get that perfect cast, but in the meantime you will basically be getting free bits / models.

That is correct
I always stare at avatars while typing being so proficient a touch typist and all.

Some of us have this thing called "peripheral vision" aka "seeing something in the corner of your eye".
It is what people with tunnel vision lack.

I could also turn that into an analogy but that would also require explaination

And yet you typed a reply, despite being annoyed by my avatar and stating that you cannot suffer to stay on this page. I can make a passive-aggressive comment on your lack of concentration and logical reasoning, but I think it is self-explanatory.

Hint: don't use your "peripheral vision" as an "excuse" on not having a "point". (^__^)

As an additional insight on your cute excuses I shall insert a printscreen of what one sees when typing a reply:



Note the lack of, I don't know.... avatars? So your lame excuse just got lamer. It must be a feat for you to not be distracted by the moving orkmoticons on the left side of the screen.

By going off the thread's quick reply and into the full reply mode

Seriously it is a distraction. As is this bickering for others who will find it tedious so it is time to drop it
If you have anything else to say on the matter do so via pm

You know what, I started typing a reasonable answer to your suggestion.
But I realized that easily distracted people are easily distracted, and they would make any damnable excuse because they can't make a point. Hell, I have ADD and I have a longer attention span than you. So either you're a very lame liar, or you have the attention span of a starfish. In any case, not good.


Here are more distractions, in case my avatar is not enough. They'll work even if you have tunnel vision. Hopefully they shock you into oblivion that you'll make a reasonable reply:




Seriously, you were the only one distracted by it. I was only asking for you to elaborate your point, in which you have failed and just given me passive-aggressive answers. When making up excuses, at least have the decency to make good, or failing that, creative ones (ooh sorry I'm drunk, I'm riding a unicorn and this is awesome. I'm also a cyclops with a cataract so I only have peripheral vision. And I'm Thomas Edison.).

You know, replying with a decent answer would've avoided this tangent in the first place.

@starsdawn: Please do not spam the forum. It is against our rules.

starsdawn wrote:
You know, replying with a decent answer would've avoided this tangent in the first place.

So would not acting like a 10 year old.

Jburch wrote:I guess not everyone looks at Finecast the way I do. Let me give my latest example :

I bought a finecast Tyranid Hive Tyrant about a month ago. Upon recieving it, and looking over the model, I noticed that there was a miscast of the spikes on his left leg. I called GW, and asked for a replacement leg. I told them I would send them pics, or send the part back to them if need be, but they told me not to worry about it and they would get a replacement part out to me shortly. A few days later, I recieve a brand new Hive Tyrant. So now I have 2 Finecast Hive tyrants for the price of 1. The one thats leg was messed up is still perfectly useable, and I got twice the amount of bits that come along with the Tyrant. Also I did a comparison, and the details are much crisper on the finecast vs the metal, and the model is 10000 times easier to put together.

I am not saying that GW is perfect, nor am I saying that it is excusable for them to put out this resin material with so many defects, but at the end of the day, if its messed up you will get another one, and if that one is messed up you will get another after that. Sure, you may have to wait a bit to finally get that perfect cast, but in the meantime you will basically be getting free bits / models.

How can Finecast provide crisper detail although they use the same mould as metal?

And you do know Metal wuhile hot runs everywhere so you dont get half casted hands and feet like you do with Finecast?

sebigboss79 wrote:

How can Finecast provide crisper detail although they use the same mould as metal?

Apparently the metal used by GW contracts slightly as it cool......or some-such.

GW do have a history of excelent customer service. If you have an issue with a finecast minuture I would advise you to send it with a letter of complaint to GW HQ. Bubbles in resin are a fault and any bubbles can be eliminated during the casting process and hopefully they soon will be.

12thRonin wrote:

starsdawn wrote:
You know, replying with a decent answer would've avoided this tangent in the first place.

So would not acting like a 10 year old.

Replying to a tangent with a tangent. Preaching to the choir, brother.

sebigboss79 wrote:How can Finecast provide crisper detail although they use the same mould as metal?

Think of it this way: using the same mold, cast your hand once first with normal plaster of Paris (the cheapest kind) and then with dental plaster (the orange-y, yellow ochre-y kind). Same mold, but you'll get different results in terms of detail retained.