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DarknessEternal wrote:It's stated numerous times that the previous dominant species was the Eldar. And their history never mentions any one in between their time and humanity's time.

Just like the predominant political power in the world right now is generally perceived to be the US... it doesn't mean that there were no other powers. Just that the Eldar were the biggest.

So is your contention that in between the time the Eldar took over the galaxy 65 million years ago, and the time when humanity took it over ~20 thousand years ago from the Eldar, there were other species that were dominant despite the Eldar bookending that timeline?

No, the point is that just as Russia have nukes, there were other powerful species besides Eldar, but the Eldar were most powerful.

The Inquisition War has the best explanation of how The Emperor's mind works/doesn't work post-heresy. So to answer the original question: sortof.

Melissia wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Where were the other species of vast empires humanity encountered in their galactic expansion? There weren't any.

There's no evidence of this. The information about humanity from when we left Earth to the time of the Great Crusade is too vague. In fact, from what I recall, humans in that era DID trade with xenos of various types.

Furthermore, you're moving the goalposts, as that's not what you initially claimed anyway. You merely said "prevalent", not "vast empires".

Fulgrim talks about a species that they fought against while travelling with the Emperor in 'Fulgrim'. They were technologically advanced enough that their planets were charred wrecks by the time the Imperium had won.

Melissia wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Where were the other species of vast empires humanity encountered in their galactic expansion? There weren't any.

There's no evidence of this. The information about humanity from when we left Earth to the time of the Great Crusade is too vague. In fact, from what I recall, humans in that era DID trade with xenos of various types.

Furthermore, you're moving the goalposts, as that's not what you initially claimed anyway. You merely said "prevalent", not "vast empires".

I think pre-Fall Eldar easily qualify as a "vast Empire".

Omegus wrote:
I think pre-Fall Eldar easily qualify as a "vast Empire".

Which is the one, and only one, I stated, because it's the only one that shows up in the actual background.

That doesn't change the fact that there are still numerous smaller empires of species in the setting, that all easily dwarf humanity having one dinky little planet when all the Chaos Gods sans Slaanesh being born.

Humanity being the main cause of Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle's births is stupid, when the Eldar alone would outnumber humanity by at the very minimum the millions.

However, the species created by The Old Ones have a uniquely potent effect on the imaterium because they were designed to.
That being said the Orks have their own gods, gork and mork, and humans have had many too. The big four ruinous powers were probably all mostly created by the highly psychic Eldar.
Eldar: they just ruin everything.

The gods always existed they were given sentience by the psychic wars the Old Ones had with the Necrontyr. So it is the fault of both the Old Ones and Eldar.

Then they just took their time making Slaanesh.

All species probably contributed to the formation of the eddies that later on became the Ruinous Powers, it's just humanity was the one to give them sentience/personality since we're so good at all that bad stuff and we breed so fast.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Humanity being the main cause of Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle's births is stupid, when the Eldar alone would outnumber humanity by at the very minimum the millions.

Do you have any proff of that? We only know that Mankind had more worlds then Eldar had.

That and humanity didn't exist when they took form but after they did...

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:
Humanity being the main cause of Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle's births is stupid, when the Eldar alone would outnumber humanity by at the very minimum the millions.

Do you have any proff of that? We only know that Mankind had more worlds then Eldar had.

According to the fluff, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were born at least six hundred years ago. How many planets do we currently own?

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:
Humanity being the main cause of Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle's births is stupid, when the Eldar alone would outnumber humanity by at the very minimum the millions.

Do you have any proff of that? We only know that Mankind had more worlds then Eldar had.

According to the fluff, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were born at least six hundred years ago. How many planets do we currently own?

He meant now? Just Terra. And they were born in year 2500, when they became fully sentient, their presence started to form in the years 8000 BC to 1400 AD, but they became fully sentient after year 2500 ( then they were born.
And my personal thought is that Eldar also created those two, because they started around that time to "experiment" with their emotions. We were also violent and such, but Eldar contributed to them the most since 1 Eldar emotion is 10x the same Human one.

Before the fall of the Eldar, they were probably the most populous race in the universe (not counting the orks) It is also quite evident that the eldar have a very strong psychic connection to the immaterium. (the fact that they are all psychers and created a chaos god by themselves being a good indication)

I am disinclined to say they created the others though. My reasoning for this is that the Eldar are all linked to Slannesh, who constantly feeds on their souls. If they created the others, those gods would also be linked to them.

I would like to point out though that humans creating them is just plain ridiculous. One planet of a couple of billion people could no possible rival the intergalactic slaughter that took place between the Old ones and the Necrons. Now the Necron Codex states that the warp was calm before the creation of the Eldar to fight the Necrons. After which the turbulence in the warp led to an opportunity for the slavers to kill off the Old ones. However, the necron codex also states that after this the necrons basically went on a full scale galaxy wide genocidal campaign. They only stopped killing everything when they realized that purging the universe of life now will prevent them from having another feast later so they went into hibernation while waiting for the universe to repopulate itself. We know that the Eldar and Orks survived this genocide, but the very acts of all that violence and death from all the living things at the time would be more than enough to start cultivating the chaos gods (Khorne and Nurgle at least).

(One train of thought, perhaps the maelstorm is the birthplace of one of them.)

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:
Humanity being the main cause of Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle's births is stupid, when the Eldar alone would outnumber humanity by at the very minimum the millions.

Do you have any proff of that? We only know that Mankind had more worlds then Eldar had.

According to the fluff, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were born at least six hundred years ago. How many planets do we currently own?

He meant now? Just Terra. And they were born in year 2500, when they became fully sentient, their presence started to form in the years 8000 BC to 1400 AD, but they became fully sentient after year 2500 ( then they were born.
And my personal thought is that Eldar also created those two, because they started around that time to "experiment" with their emotions. We were also violent and such, but Eldar contributed to them the most since 1 Eldar emotion is 10x the same Human one.

They were born between 8000 BC and 1400AD, and became sentient in M2. M2 is the 1000s. That's why 40k is in the 41st millennium.

Durza wrote:
They were born between 8000 BC and 1400AD, and became sentient in M2. M2 is the 1000s. That's why 40k is in the 41st millennium.

Still, the Emperor is older

Yeah...

Brother Coa wrote:He meant now? Just Terra. And they were born in year 2500, when they became fully sentient, their presence started to form in the years 8000 BC to 1400 AD, but they became fully sentient after year 2500 ( then they were born.

Out of curiosity, where does that date come from? Since Doombreed is often thought to be Genghis Khan (or is that Doomrider? Doom-something), and is one of Khorne's first servants, that would make for a contradiction (not surprisingly, given how haphazard 40k fluff gets).

See thread "beings that match the Emperor"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ancient_history

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
I would like to point out though that humans creating them is just plain ridiculous. One planet of a couple of billion people could no possible rival

Humans are special.

Brother Coa wrote:Do you have any proff of that? We only know that Mankind had more worlds then Eldar had.

Considering Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle were born according to the 40k timeline before humanity even figured out how to put a man on the moon... Yeah.

Though the Emperor is indeed older.

Brother Coa wrote:See thread "beings that match the Emperor"

Durza wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ancient_history

There is a citation for the Emperor's birth at 8000BC, but no reference for the Chaos Gods' timeline of 8000BC-1400AD, and no mention at all of them "being born" in the year 2500AD. And if you go to the source, the only date mentioned is the 8000BC one, with the Powers fully becoming self-aware by the Middle Ages. That's why using wikis and similar as your only sources is foolish. Lexicanum in particular is notorious for mistakes/creative edits. This is also what makes it so frustrating to debate fluff with some folks on this board. Remembering reading something somewhere, and then using Lexicanum (personally, I prefer 40k wiki, since it tends to be more up to date and better about providing page numbers) to track down where is fine, but when you get into an argument with someone who is using Lexicanum as his one and only reference, it's like beating your head against a particularly stupid wall.

Omegus wrote: and no mention at all of them "being born" in the year 2500AD. And if you go to the source, the only date mentioned is the 8000BC one, with the Powers fully becoming self-aware by the Middle Ages.

See M2

See that number not appearing at all in the cited document.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M2

Again, I just explained to you why using Lexicanum as your sole source makes you look like a fool. They cite Lost and the Damned, but that date never ever appears in the actual book. EVER. At all. Not even a tiny little bit.

Lexicanum frequently has incorrect or out-right made-up information. Unless you have the source material, your citation is meaningless.

Then you read the book again, to you then everybody is fools because everybody is using Lexicanum.
And you can just say " this is not valid because its on Lexicaum " if goes against your personal believes.