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Just to point out, ever STC discovered is committed to Mars' "miles of sacred" memory banks. To not do so with your newly discovered STC would be Heresy in the extreme. Now, whether it is shared with other forge world, past Mars and the discovering forge world, is a different issue all together...

Just to point out, a full STC is the AdMech's holy grail for a very good reason. It was a computer sent out with every group of colonists that left the good ol' solar system during the 'Dark' Age of Tech. It contains, quite literally, the information required for building anything in man's technological repertoire most efficiently from almost any base materials that might be found on a plant worthy of colonization. This ranges from 'Dummy's Guide to Improvised Temporary Shelter' to 'An Idiot's How To Guide For Mass Producing Neutron Bombs'. Tell the STC what you want to do and it provides you with cookbook like instructions on how to do it. Super useful for keeping man's technology standardized as he spread throughout the stars in an era of super crazy, isolating warp storms. Unfortunately.......Yeah.

This is a full STC. Most STC's the AdMech has...are not even remotely in their original form. They're just single copies of the designs for one thing contained within a single STC. A full, or partial STC would have a huge bounty of information. A STC design is just one design. I guess they recover these cause some guy was like, "Hmm...Main Battle Tank...I'm gonna book mark this one...Actually, I think I need a couple million copies of this design to take home with me...to be safe." So they discovered one after a couple thousand years once the full thing was lost.

I guess they put so much effort into finding one of these babies because it would pretty much mean they wouldn't have to invent anything new for QUITE a while. They'd have completely restored man's long lost technological know how. Supposedly, some STC's still have the designs for the Men of Iron. I believe this STC design was even found once only to be promptly destroyed.

And there is some points that suggest that in fact Mechanicus is inventing new things - but very hard. And they are jealous in sharing all that knowledge with anyone.

And Mars is galaxy's largest STC library, according to "Mechanicus".

Most basic Astartes equipment is not based on STC designs.

PA is based on an STC, but it is so much more advanced then the original(which was Mk1 Thunder armor IIRC, not true PA)

the same goes for Bolter weaponry and TDA as well(TDA can, contrary to popular belief, be replicated. but it is sooo difficult that it is easier to maintain the old suits then make a new one)

Don't forget the influence of the Adeptus Mechanicus's religious dogma on the whole STC issue.

They have set up the idea of the STC as the holy grail, containing all knowledge and technology that is worth having (even though we as outside readers know that it wasn't the be all and end all of all technology). Thus from their POV, any technology they use MUST be justified as deriving from the STC, or being an allowed for variant within an existing STC template, regardless of whether or not this was actually the case. Even if a Tech-Priest should come up with a new invention or advance, they would end up having to find some way to portray their finding as a rediscovery of an STC design or a part swap/variant of an STC design.

Remember 40K bases its themes of technology off of the Middle Ages and the ancient world. For much of these eras, it was a matter of rediscovering what the ancients knew in a rose-tinted mythical Golden Age of the past, and the ancients obviously knew so much more that to dare to say you had invented or found something they hadn't thought of was considered prideful hubris.

Adeptus Mechanicus invents new things, it's only that they try and try and try until it suits their need and are approved.

Also they do not get angry when Space Marines invents new toys like the Crusader, Helios or the Imperial Fist Land Raider version made by Forge World. So if they do not call that heresy , it means that they invent new things... only slowly.

KOS wrote:Adeptus Mechanicus invents new things, it's only that they try and try and try until it suits their need and are approved.

Also they do not get angry when Space Marines invents new toys like the Crusader, Helios or the Imperial Fist Land Raider version made by Forge World. So if they do not call that heresy , it means that they invent new things... only slowly.

Very slowly. And in the same time they lose some other tech. It's like Homer's brain. In order to learn something new he has to forget something old

Iracundus wrote:Don't forget the influence of the Adeptus Mechanicus's religious dogma on the whole STC issue.

They have set up the idea of the STC as the holy grail, containing all knowledge and technology that is worth having (even though we as outside readers know that it wasn't the be all and end all of all technology). Thus from their POV, any technology they use MUST be justified as deriving from the STC, or being an allowed for variant within an existing STC template, regardless of whether or not this was actually the case. Even if a Tech-Priest should come up with a new invention or advance, they would end up having to find some way to portray their finding as a rediscovery of an STC design or a part swap/variant of an STC design.

Remember 40K bases its themes of technology off of the Middle Ages and the ancient world. For much of these eras, it was a matter of rediscovering what the ancients knew in a rose-tinted mythical Golden Age of the past, and the ancients obviously knew so much more that to dare to say you had invented or found something they hadn't thought of was considered prideful hubris.

Except a fully functioning STC machine would indeed be all humanity would need as it would contain ALL human technology as of the Dark Age of Technology level. They would have the blueprints for everything mankind ever invented.

1 machine would allow them to fix all the incomplete STC templates they are currently using and print out ones they have lost.


True, it would stop tech progression, but that would be ok because you literally wouldn't need to advance any more. Mankind was so advanced that we had ceased technological advancement. we had everything we needed. Then we had to start over again because SOMEONE forgot to oil all the STC machines.

Grey Templar wrote:

Iracundus wrote:Don't forget the influence of the Adeptus Mechanicus's religious dogma on the whole STC issue.

They have set up the idea of the STC as the holy grail, containing all knowledge and technology that is worth having (even though we as outside readers know that it wasn't the be all and end all of all technology). Thus from their POV, any technology they use MUST be justified as deriving from the STC, or being an allowed for variant within an existing STC template, regardless of whether or not this was actually the case. Even if a Tech-Priest should come up with a new invention or advance, they would end up having to find some way to portray their finding as a rediscovery of an STC design or a part swap/variant of an STC design.

Remember 40K bases its themes of technology off of the Middle Ages and the ancient world. For much of these eras, it was a matter of rediscovering what the ancients knew in a rose-tinted mythical Golden Age of the past, and the ancients obviously knew so much more that to dare to say you had invented or found something they hadn't thought of was considered prideful hubris.

Except a fully functioning STC machine would indeed be all humanity would need as it would contain ALL human technology as of the Dark Age of Technology level. They would have the blueprints for everything mankind ever invented.

Actually we only know the STC contained standard templates that allowed human societies, especially colonies, to manufacture a wide range of things using a variety of tools and materials. We don't know that it truly contained the sum total of all human knowledge. That is what the Adeptus Mechanicus believes, but there is a difference between what people believe and what may be the reality.

If you think about it, it is actually unlikely the STC system had the most cutting edge Dark Age of Technology stuff, considering it was meant to be a way for colonies to bootstrap themselves up to a certain technology level. Colonies would need practical stuff, not the latest theoretical knowledge or research. Any of that more advanced stuff could presumably be traded for or shipped out to the colony in the future (remember this was before widespread warp storms isolated human worlds from each other).

Iracundus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Iracundus wrote:Don't forget the influence of the Adeptus Mechanicus's religious dogma on the whole STC issue.

They have set up the idea of the STC as the holy grail, containing all knowledge and technology that is worth having (even though we as outside readers know that it wasn't the be all and end all of all technology). Thus from their POV, any technology they use MUST be justified as deriving from the STC, or being an allowed for variant within an existing STC template, regardless of whether or not this was actually the case. Even if a Tech-Priest should come up with a new invention or advance, they would end up having to find some way to portray their finding as a rediscovery of an STC design or a part swap/variant of an STC design.

Remember 40K bases its themes of technology off of the Middle Ages and the ancient world. For much of these eras, it was a matter of rediscovering what the ancients knew in a rose-tinted mythical Golden Age of the past, and the ancients obviously knew so much more that to dare to say you had invented or found something they hadn't thought of was considered prideful hubris.

Except a fully functioning STC machine would indeed be all humanity would need as it would contain ALL human technology as of the Dark Age of Technology level. They would have the blueprints for everything mankind ever invented.

Actually we only know the STC contained standard templates that allowed human societies, especially colonies, to manufacture a wide range of things using a variety of tools and materials. We don't know that it truly contained the sum total of all human knowledge. That is what the Adeptus Mechanicus believes, but there is a difference between what people believe and what may be the reality.

If you think about it, it is actually unlikely the STC system had the most cutting edge Dark Age of Technology stuff, considering it was meant to be a way for colonies to bootstrap themselves up to a certain technology level. Colonies would need practical stuff, not the latest theoretical knowledge or research. Any of that more advanced stuff could presumably be traded for or shipped out to the colony in the future (remember this was before widespread warp storms isolated human worlds from each other).

Actually, the STCs were designed to make anything a colony could need. everything from toothpicks to Nuclear Reactors. the STC had it all.


the STC wasn't just a blueprint machine either, it was a fully functioning factory as well. you just had to provide it with raw material and it could make what you wanted. They were even programmed to mix and match equipment. Say a planet didn't have any petrochemicals, it could make a engine that would run on a local substitute.

Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, the STCs were designed to make anything a colony could need. everything from toothpicks to Nuclear Reactors. the STC had it all.

Anything a colony might need. That is not the same as everything that humanity knew or would ever need. The then current cutting edge research and development would not be what a fledgling colony would need.

Iracundus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, the STCs were designed to make anything a colony could need. everything from toothpicks to Nuclear Reactors. the STC had it all.

Anything a colony might need. That is not the same as everything that humanity knew or would ever need. The then current cutting edge research and development would not be what a fledgling colony would need.

Anything a colony, that would have no support from the rest of humanity for the rest of time, would ever need. it had the entirety of mankinds technology, including weaponry.

These Colonys needed to be able to defend themselves from hostile Xeno races so the STCs also contained every piece of military equipment that mankind could possably need(everything)



The STC was the culmination of all of mankinds technological achievments.

Grey Templar wrote:
Anything a colony, that would have no support from the rest of humanity for the rest of time, would ever need. it had the entirety of mankinds technology, including weaponry.

These Colonys needed to be able to defend themselves from hostile Xeno races so the STCs also contained every piece of military equipment that mankind could possably need(everything)



The STC was the culmination of all of mankinds technological achievments.

Since when were these colonies supposed to have no support for the rest of time? This was not the Age of Strife. There was interstellar travel through the warp and presumably commerce. There would be no need to include the latest theoretical developments and experimental technology on a new colony ship when such a colony would not need such advanced stuff and when there would be the assumed availability of interstellar commerce and contact to provide and sustain technology transfer or other trade. The collapse of so many human societies into barbarism AFTER the Dark Age of Technology, when warp storms made warp travel increasingly risky and unreliable, shows how reliant colonies were on ongoing warp travel to maintain their societies, technology, and economies.

Being able to defend oneself with home built weapons is again NOT the same as having the absolute cutting edge of everything ever invented or then currently being studied. Colonies would only need things that were "good enough" to manage, to keep themselves reasonably self sufficient and able to deal with local issues. There was never any hint or indication that colonies were suddenly set up as advanced utopian societies with everything known and available. Such implausible visions smack of retrospective mythmaking about a Golden Age.

It is the same way in the Imperium. Worlds might make autoguns to defend themselves but being able to do so does not suddenly mean they have everything there is to know about weapons or even projectile weapons.

STCs contained a vastly diverse range example of robust and easily fabricated technology, often modular and modifiable. "Good enough" technology is different from cutting edge experimental technology. It was never the culmination of everything the Dark Age of Technology ever knew. The Adeptus Mechanicus may think so but again there is the difference between belief and reality.

Mankind wasn't a unified species and the Galaxy was a very dangerous place.

Just because you might have support doesn't mean you won't have all the information you need at the press of a button if you have the option.



Besides, the fluff is that the machines had EVERYTHING in their files. There is nothing to the contrary in the fluff. So, we take the fluff at face value that they indeed have all of mankinds technology implanted on their memory files because thats what we are told.

I don't think they truly "invent" "new" things. They'll modify designs, like the Land Raider Crusader vs. the Land Raider, but all their actual vehicles are ultimately based on STC designs.

Actually, STC's in the fluff that I have read are described to contain one, and only one item.

In one of the early Gaunts Ghosts novels they discover a fully functional (If chaos corrupted) STC devoted to making the Men of Iron. No mention was made of it making anything else and in fact they spoke as if that possibility didn't even exist. Earlier in the book a story was told of the discovery of the only other known "fully functional STC" ever found, it made blades that were sharper and better than any other.

In the second Grey Knights novel, the Dark Mechanicus world the book was centered on was home to an STC to create Titans, it was unclear if that was the original Titan STC and all the ones built by the Imperium are poor copies or if it was a brand new type. Of course it was also chaos corrupted or something and they had to splode it too

What fluff have you seen that says STC's have more than one pattern in them?

Fully functional ≠ Complete.
I believe these would be examples of fully functional STC templates.

As for the STC being to holy grail or not...Of course, no, it didn't contain on going research or untested new inventions. It ha(s/d) all of mankind's inventions that are tried and tested. It contained both designs for simple, temporary shelters...Basically the end all be all hut and designs for things like a land raider. If you need something simple and quick, like a knife, the STC will give the the means to make the pinnacle of all knives...But it's still just a knife. If you've got the resources and time, you type in something like 'killy killy rifle thing, preferably sparkly' and you get the plasmagun.

Remember, TDA is an STC. Titans are almost all STC. BATTLESHIPS are STC. Also, I believe, the time we're talking about was one of tumultuous warp storms. Like the ones that pop up and rage then abate. This isn't current 40k space. This is more fluid and changing space. So there was a very, very real possibility that colonies could be cut off from human society for an indefinite amount of time. I believe the event that made most of space relatively stable (i.e. no longer susceptible to large, random warp storms anywhere, any time) was the birth of Slaanesh and the creation of the big papa warp storm, the eye of terror.

BrainDeleted wrote:
This isn't current 40k space. This is more fluid and changing space. So there was a very, very real possibility that colonies could be cut off from human society for an indefinite amount of time. I believe the event that made most of space relatively stable (i.e. no longer susceptible to large, random warp storms anywhere, any time) was the birth of Slaanesh and the creation of the big papa warp storm, the eye of terror.

You have things incorrect.

The time of the warp storms was the Age of Strife, NOT the Dark Age of Technology:

Age of Strife

A time of barbarism and collapse. Mankind's holdings are fragmented and isolated by Warp storms of unprecedented ferocity. p. 122, 5th edition 40K rulebook

For Mankind's holdings to be fragmented with the Age of Strife, means they were NOT fragmented before. Colonies did not count on being cut off from interstellar society for such enormous periods of time.

Good point on the distinction between fully functional and complete, but I would still like to know where in the fluff STC's are described as having many patterns. Mostly now cause I am curious. I fully expect the fluff to contradict itself.

It appears you're mostly correct, Iracundus, I was thinking of the age of strife with the massive warp storms. Although it's up for debate just how reliable warp travel would be A) Without the guiding light of the Emporer B) Without navigators (Psyker gene developed en mass late DAoT, early AoS). I mean, they had the gellar fields but that only allows you to EXIST in the warp without getting . So the isolation factor is still there somewhat for far flung colonies...But still, the utility of the STC is pretty undeniable, isolation expected or unexpected. I mean, you can't feasibly stock every colony ship with scientists of the highest caliber. The STC allowed man to colonize with much greater efficiency. Gather a lot of people, a couple good ships, and the good ol' STC and you're set to take a planet for yourself without needing massive amounts of support or a logistical nightmare.

BrainDeleted wrote:Remember, TDA is an STC. Titans are almost all STC. BATTLESHIPS are STC.

AFAIK, titans and spaceships are not exactly STC. They are simply too big to be detailed and conceived by a single STC. Titans and spaceships are made of loads of different STCs though. For instance, in a titan, you would need an STC for the princeps' control casket, another one for the plasma reactor and another one for the plasma destroyer, etc.

Same goes for spaceships. To build a spaceship, you would need the STC for grav plates (which is apparently being lost or is poorly understood by an increasing number of forge worlds), another one for engines (the IoM has already lost most of its knowledge concerning plasma engines) and another one for the weaponry you want to strap on the spaceship, etc.

If I recall correctly, Titans were created during the Age of Strife, not during the Dark Age of Technology, and would likely not be from a STC. Although I might be wrong here.

Titans were invented in M21. That's DAoT.