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Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Because Mecahnicus said: "All was invented by Machine God. Everything new is Heresy."

No they didn't.

No they didn't. But to then inventing something new is Heresy. Their logic is that Machine God have alreay invented all there is to be invented and that they just need to find it all ( STC ). So in a certain way my statement is true.

But then why the Imperials can't get rid of this superstition? Why don't they understand that they can't defeat fast-developing races, such as Tau ir Tyranids?
But if you look better, the majority of enemies of mankind are also very conservative in their scientific and technological development. Chaos uses 10000 years-old or stolen from the Imperium equipment, Orks are able to build only either extremely primitive or bizarre and unstable machines or loot some stuff from the Imperium. Eldar technology doesn't seem to develop for 10000 years - they are really dying race because they really don't want to live and think about their future. And their dark cousins live in the atmosphere of the eternal strife - I even wonder how they didn't come to the stone age in their Commorragh. Necrons are simply a race of ancient robots with extremely advanced technology - they needn't any development at all, even tau won't overcome them.

Brother Coa wrote:No they didn't. But to then inventing something new is Heresy.

No, it's not.

The Mechanicus makes new things and improves old things all the time. For example, the Clovis pattern plasma gun-- which is basically a plasmagun assault rifle (where other plasmaguns are battle rifles) which fires about half as fast as an autogun and is used for suppression fire because of its raw rate of fire and large plasma flasks.

And plenty of other things. But the Mechanicus really likes to do generations of testing before letting a new product go out into the Imperium. It does not always do such, but it prefers to.

You keep saying these things, I do not think you know as much about the topic as you think you know...

Well I know that they are using STC to produce things, they rarely build something new. I do know that they have problems maintaining existing technology and that Imperium technology is in decline. There is also religion in place that glorify the machine spirit and as we all know technology and religion don't go very well.

There is also this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365079.page

What? Why not?

Prayer and ritual are used in the Imperium to assist people in remembering things they're supposed to do. There's even prayers in the Uplifting Primer that help guardsmen remember how to maintain their weapons.

Yes but inventing new things?
I heard 100 times that people say that to the Mechanicus invention of new things is heresy ( aldo it was a little strange since there is a request for Eldar weapon to be mounted on Imperial Titan, and there is also research with Necron tech ). But to me it is a little strange for organisation like that to not be able to produce tanks like Vanquisher without STC ( it's basically Leman Russ with longer barrel, like putting 110mm cannon to Sherman ). First, the main Forgeworld that produce them fell to Ork Invasio, it's recapture was never attempted. Only 2 worlds remained that produced Vanquishers, and none wanted to share it's STC so the tank became rare. And one of those Forge Worlds got NOM'ed by Nids and now Vanquisher is even rarer. Now it is strange that organisation like AM can build Titans and Battleships on large scale ( some even without STC ) but they can't build tank with longer barrel?

And I was thinking about religion and science, combining those 2 always get the bad things in the end thought the Human history. And I never thought about prayers would actualy serve as a reminder how stuff works...

Brother Coa wrote:I heard 100 times that people say that to the Mechanicus invention of new things is heresy

I've heard 40,000 times that lasguns are flashlights.

That is also wrong.

We pledge to the spirits of founding father

And the Glory of the realm our mother

That we shall be the shield which defend our momeland

And the halberd which smite those who would harm us.

Actually it's from Code Geass but may be used as Imperial tank opening interface.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I heard 100 times that people say that to the Mechanicus invention of new things is heresy

I've heard 40,000 times that lasguns are flashlights.

That is also wrong.

For that I agree

Invention isn't heresy, if improving on a design you could kind of see it as a way of purifying the machine further. The main heresy is the machines of Xenos and Chaos, they also have machine spirits (not the chaos ones though) but they are in impure vessels.

Brother Coa wrote:Yes but inventing new things?
I heard 100 times that people say that to the Mechanicus invention of new things is heresy ( aldo it was a little strange since there is a request for Eldar weapon to be mounted on Imperial Titan, and there is also research with Necron tech ). But to me it is a little strange for organisation like that to not be able to produce tanks like Vanquisher without STC ( it's basically Leman Russ with longer barrel, like putting 110mm cannon to Sherman ). First, the main Forgeworld that produce them fell to Ork Invasio, it's recapture was never attempted. Only 2 worlds remained that produced Vanquishers, and none wanted to share it's STC so the tank became rare. And one of those Forge Worlds got NOM'ed by Nids and now Vanquisher is even rarer. Now it is strange that organisation like AM can build Titans and Battleships on large scale ( some even without STC ) but they can't build tank with longer barrel?

And I was thinking about religion and science, combining those 2 always get the bad things in the end thought the Human history. And I never thought about prayers would actualy serve as a reminder how stuff works...

i kind of agree if they have the finnished product then why can't they work backwards to get the original stuff, and why not share the STC's with other forge worlds

They don't share STCs so their forge world can get exclusive production rights.

Its a political game. I make the most stuff/rare stuff/unique stuff = Favor with the Machine God.

Grey Templar wrote:They don't share STCs so their forge world can get exclusive production rights.

Its a political game. I make the most stuff/rare stuff/unique stuff = Favor with the Machine God.

+ money from the Imerial war effort.

Good point i never thought of each forge world having its own economy and agenda

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:They don't share STCs so their forge world can get exclusive production rights.

Its a political game. I make the most stuff/rare stuff/unique stuff = Favor with the Machine God.

+ money from the Imerial war effort.

Good point i never thought of each forge world having its own economy and agenda

And then that world got nomed by Nids or crushed by Orks and Imperium lose that STC forever...

Brother Coa wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:They don't share STCs so their forge world can get exclusive production rights.

Its a political game. I make the most stuff/rare stuff/unique stuff = Favor with the Machine God.

+ money from the Imerial war effort.

Good point i never thought of each forge world having its own economy and agenda

And then that world got nomed by Nids or crushed by Orks and Imperium lose that STC forever...

i agree i think they should share i just didn't understand a reason why they didn't

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:They don't share STCs so their forge world can get exclusive production rights.

Its a political game. I make the most stuff/rare stuff/unique stuff = Favor with the Machine God.

+ money from the Imerial war effort.

Good point i never thought of each forge world having its own economy and agenda

And then that world got nomed by Nids or crushed by Orks and Imperium lose that STC forever...

i agree i think they should share i just didn't understand a reason why they didn't

Grey Templar mentioned it earlier I think.

Basically, FWs try to keep valuable STCs for themselves because of the fame, the influence (and also possibly the material and economic wealth) the production of STC materials brings.

Let's take the example of the baneblade. This tank is probably one of the most efficient super-heavies in the galaxy and is in extremely high demand from IG regiments. As a result, demand for baneblades far outstrips their production (at least at the moment).

The few forge worlds producing baneblades are thus facing the impossibility to satisfy the demand for baneblades. They are then facing two options:

The first one would be to distribute their STC templates to other forge worlds, thus raising the production of baneblades. However, the forge worlds already producing baneblades would face an increased competition from new production sites, and possibly fall out of favor (and loose fame, influence, etc...).

The second option would be to keep the STCs for themselves, thus eliminating competition from other forge worlds and making sure they keep their position of power within the AdMech.

Wanna guess what option they chose?

Laodamia wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:They don't share STCs so their forge world can get exclusive production rights.

Its a political game. I make the most stuff/rare stuff/unique stuff = Favor with the Machine God.

+ money from the Imerial war effort.

Good point i never thought of each forge world having its own economy and agenda

And then that world got nomed by Nids or crushed by Orks and Imperium lose that STC forever...

i agree i think they should share i just didn't understand a reason why they didn't

Grey Templar mentioned it earlier I think.

Basically, FWs try to keep valuable STCs for themselves because of the fame, the influence (and also possibly the material and economic wealth) the production of STC materials brings.

Let's take the example of the baneblade. This tank is probably one of the most efficient super-heavies in the galaxy and is in extremely high demand from IG regiments. As a result, demand for baneblades far outstrips their production (at least at the moment).

The few forge worlds producing baneblades are thus facing the impossibility to satisfy the demand for baneblades. They are then facing two options:

The first one would be to distribute their STC templates to other forge worlds, thus raising the production of baneblades. However, the forge worlds already producing baneblades would face an increased competition from new production sites, and possibly fall out of favor (and loose fame, influence, etc...).

The second option would be to keep the STCs for themselves, thus eliminating competition from other forge worlds and making sure they keep their position of power within the AdMech.

Wanna guess what option they chose?

i get it now, but why can't the admech just say "hey! you! stop hoarding those STC's"

Advancing tech increases the risk of the Ironmen happening all over again. The worship of the Machine-Spirits is what keeps them content. Even if the Ironmen won't come back any time soon, the machine spirits could take over the vehichles (example: Land Raider). This would still wipe out the Imperium.
Some players are wating for the other foot to fall with the Tau drone intelligences.

I'd like to chime in with the general decline of tech being another part of the setting that is 'grim dark'. I thought I read somewhere that the Admech is making another type of patrol ship/cruiser and that officers complained that the machine spirit wasn't as capable as older machine spirits i.e. 'too young'. If that was written in some story (Titanicus?) that would also show how older tech is better just on the basis that it still functions so many millennium later.

Previous human technology was basically magic compared to what they are currently capable of inventing. That's why they spend so much effort trying to discover it compared to effort spent in trying to re-invent things whole-cloth.

That's not to say they don't spend effort in research and development, they absolutely do with many examples. But, just like the real world, it's easier to steal pre-existing technology. In this case, their own.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

i get it now, but why can't the admech just say "hey! you! stop hoarding those STC's"

Well, that's a totally different matter. I guess there are different answers to this question.

One possible answer could be that the central authorities of the AdMech (I mean the High Magi on Mars) don't hold enough influence over the different forge worlds to actually intervene in their private agendas. As a result, the different forge worlds scattered across the galaxy follow and obey Mars, but only up to a certain point, leaving them free to deal with their personal matters as they see fit. When you think about it, this is exactly how the wider IoM works: the different planets of the Imperium obey the orders coming down from Terra, but the different planetary governors do basically what they want beyond that point.

Another answer (much more grimdark IMO) would be that the AdMech is actually encouraging this fierce competition between forge worlds and the very slow distribution of valuable tech and STC templates. Indeed, the AdMech has proved time an time again that it didn't give a crap about the wider Imperium and followed its own agenda.

I belive Mars does attempt to at least get a copy of every STC in existance so that they don't lose stuff permantly.

Of course, red tape and the sheer size of such a task makes it an impossability.

Its basically a massive legislative nightmare.

I believe it's not only a bureaucratic or administrative problem.

Here is how a member of the Knights of Taranis (a Knight order based on Mars) described the AdMech in the book Mechanicum: "a competitive, uncooperative, suspicious and insular organisation unworthy of the name of "community".

We must understand that the AdMech is not organised in the same strict way as the IoM. It is not really a single, unified political entity (although the Imperium itself is not really a single political entity either) but rather a loose network of alliances, bonds and oaths of fealty between forge worlds with Mars occupying the top seat. therefore, it is perfectly understandable that when a forge world gets its hands on a STC, it is more than reluctant to share it with other forge worlds.

Indeed, the only unifying thing the Ad Mech has is religion.


and even then there are many schisims.

DarknessEternal wrote:Previous human technology was basically magic compared to what they are currently capable of inventing. That's why they spend so much effort trying to discover it compared to effort spent in trying to re-invent things whole-cloth.

That's not to say they don't spend effort in research and development, they absolutely do with many examples. But, just like the real world, it's easier to steal pre-existing technology. In this case, their own.

Well, will the technology of making tanks and airplanes be compared to magic for 40k humans?
And if AdMech had STC, why wouldn't they simply look how does it work? Do they fear Omnissiah's wrath or something else?

They would gladly reverse engeneer stuff, but they fear breaking the machine so they just let it make what it makes and maintain it to this end.


If you have what is most likely the last machine that can make something you really need, would you risk breaking it and not being able to replicate it and lose everything just for the chance you MIGHT be able to make more of the machine.

Farseer Petriel wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Previous human technology was basically magic compared to what they are currently capable of inventing. That's why they spend so much effort trying to discover it compared to effort spent in trying to re-invent things whole-cloth.

That's not to say they don't spend effort in research and development, they absolutely do with many examples. But, just like the real world, it's easier to steal pre-existing technology. In this case, their own.

Well, will the technology of making tanks and airplanes be compared to magic for 40k humans?
And if AdMech had STC, why wouldn't they simply look how does it work? Do they fear Omnissiah's wrath or something else?

It's really hard to find out the underling principles under devices unless you know what they are. All that knowledge has degraded away. They would have to completely rebuild from scratch.

Farseer Petriel wrote:
And if AdMech had STC, why wouldn't they simply look how does it work? Do they fear Omnissiah's wrath or something else?

Actually, they do. The AdMech call it the "Law of Divine Complexity" I believe. The underlying idea of this sacred law, which is the basis of martian dogma, is that the machine is sacred, a gift from the Machine God and that altering or modifying this sacred artifact is heresy. I remember reading about a poor technoscribe guy that modified his computer to make it slightly faster. The magos supervising his work found out about it, got really pissed, and sentenced the dude to death on the grounds of techno-heresy.


"The Martian Priesthood is an ancient organisation and is learned in the ways of technology, but our grasp of such things is limited by blind adherence to dogma, tradition and repetition." This quote was taken from the book Mechanicum (yes, again! This book is great for fluff or the AdMech and its dogma). IIRC, it was said by one of the major Magi on Mars.

Then why almost ALL people of the Imperium blindly thnik that dogmas and tradition are cool? And why they suppose such ideology as the most righteous in the WH40k world?

Farseer Petriel wrote:Then why almost ALL people of the Imperium blindly thnik that dogmas and tradition are cool? And why they suppose such ideology as the most righteous in the WH40k world?

Because mindless dogmatism marching humanity to their own doom is suitably Grim Dark for the setting. And not ALL people blindly follow, but those who can do something tend to be Radical Inquisitors who're forced to work in secret lest the more puritan members find their agendas out. Those with any honest curiosity are executed on the altar of stability. As compared with reality's governments, this ruthless extermination of potential change is meant to keep ancient institutions (which depend on the tradition) in power.

The Imperium of Mankind is both humanity's only hope and its greatest enemy, with the former being due in part to the latter.