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rigeld2 wrote:He can rally because he's at 100% of his starting unit size.

You mean the farseer? Pronoun use of "he" requires an antecedent, like 'farseer'.

Anyway, you're saying he can rally because he's 100% of his starting unit size, and being an IC is irelevant?

Huh, I understand what you're saying now, but ...

rigeld2 wrote:edit: Him being an IC has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. It's just the current unit size versus the original unit size.

Can you please cite why being an IC has nothing to with tea prices (the rallying capability)?

Here is my issue with that last post haendas, you say that those are examples of when they are counted but the codex doesn't put it that way, it doesn't say that they are counted in example, it just says that they are counted for assessing 25%, whether the unit can take objectives (FAQ removes), and for 50% victory points (still exists despite popular belief), these are given as when the drones are counted not as examples. This is why I disagree with your understanding of the RAW, to me the RAW states that they are counted to these exact instances and therefore these exact instances are the only time that we count them.

Also with regards to trying to compare Drones to the Wolves, there exists 1 distinct difference, with Tau the IC can not be singled out from the Drones when with Space Wolves the IC can be singled out from the wolves. There is 1 other possible difference to note as I do not know of this clause existing the the Space Wolf codex, When an IC is killed with the Drones still being alive the Drones are removed from play at the end of the phase, the Wolves as far as I know are not.

Saiisil wrote:therefore these exact instances are the only time that we count them.

Problem, it does not say those are the only instances they are counted.

Saiisil wrote:you say that those are examples of when they are counted but the codex doesn't put it that way

That is not what I said. You are putting words in my mouth so to speak.

All I'm saying is that if you claim that the drones do not count towards unit strength when regrouping the codex needs to say that, and claiming that it says that by omission is an interpretation of RAI.

Brother - ICs have NO special rules regarding rallying.

None

However, MOST ICs are units of 1. Thus, when they are by themselves, they can rally (assuming outside of 6" of an enemy) - they dont have an exemption to the 50% rule, it just isnt really relevant

Thus there is no paradox: the suit is an IC no matter what. It's just "being an IC" doesnt have any bearing whatsoever on your ability to rally - it is still based on your starting unit size

If your starting unit size is 3, and you lose 2 models and are falling back, you cannot rally. It doesnt matter if you are or are not an IC.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Brother - ICs have NO special rules regarding rallying. None

You're right. I can't find any.

nosferatu1001 wrote:However, MOST ICs are units of 1. Thus, when they are by themselves, they can rally (assuming outside of 6" of an enemy) - they dont have an exemption to the 50% rule, it just isnt really relevant

Thus there is no paradox: the suit is an IC no matter what. It's just "being an IC" doesnt have any bearing whatsoever on your ability to rally - it is still based on your starting unit size

If your starting unit size is 3, and you lose 2 models and are falling back, you cannot rally. It doesnt matter if you are or are not an IC.

Nos, I've gone through pages 48 and 49 ... and I can't find any "IC's can rally once on their own". Huh.

I coulda swore it existed. PErhaps I carried that last line from the retinue listing? Was it a 4e rule?

Hmph.

All this rules discussion aside, would you be harsh on the tau player for not buying a BK and deny him the rally?

haendas wrote:I think you get the gist of what I'm saying, yes.

the statements in the codex do not state that the drones don't count towards determining if the unit is below 50% strength for regrouping purposes. In order to claim that, the codex needs to say that, or state that the drones only count in the situations listed in the codex. The codex doesn't say that though. Giving examples of when models count doesn't mean that they don't count in all other situations. If you claim that they don't count for regrouping counts, then you are applying your interpretation of RAI not RAW because nothing in the RAW says that drones don't count towards unit strength for regrouping purposes.

Regarding your hypothetical example, it sounds like that is just the same situation as drones we've been talking about; therefore, the general rule in the rulebook still applies. If the codex is going to trump the rulebook, it must say so explicitly, not via an argument of omission by interpreting RAI.

Obviously, it would be much more clear and helpful if the writers focused on examples that override the rulebook, but unfortunately they didn't.

The bold text, did you not type that? If you did type that then how am I "putting words" in your mouth?

As I said, the codex give 3 moments in time at which you count the Drones, when these rules were written there existed more then those 3 moments in time and the Drones did not count for anything but those 3 because it tells you exactly when you count them, with the upgrade to 5th edition 1 of those 3 no longer exist so no there are 2 moments in time that you count the Drones as per the codex, what I am seeing you say is that because it doesn't say only which in reality I feel it would have been redundant to include a single word just to emphasize a point then they count for things beyond what the rules say that they count for. You see to me I feel my argument is the RAW of it and yours is RAI because the rules say exactly when you count them.

I guess I did use the word example. You got me there.

The truth of the matter is that in order to reach your interpretation of the rules, you must add words to the language of the written rule. My interpretation does not require an alteration of the written rule.

I do not see how you need to add words to my interpretation, it is simple, the rules say you count the drones when assessing 25%, ok that works, they say you count them for seeing if the unit is strong enough to claim an objective, FAQ says erase that line ok check, they say that you count them for the unit strength of 50% for Victory Points, check. They are Wargear they are not unit members so where do the rules say that wargear counts when determining that a unit can or can not regroup?

This is why I feel that your interpretation is in the wrong because the way I see it, your interpretation is adding the ruling that a models wargear counts towards total unit size and whether or not that unit can regroup which I do not remember such a ruling existing anywhere.

They are part of the unit as defined by rulebook page 3. They are models that fight alongside each other, move together, shoot at the same target unit, must maintain coherency, etc.

Yet they are wargear and should their controlling Character be killed (just double checked it says character not IC for this one) all Drones under that characters control are removed. Just checked my buddies Space Wolf codex and like the Drones the Wolves are removed too, didn't know that, but as far as I know and I have seen this in tournament play the Wolves are not counted towards the unit size in regards to 25% or regrouping. While the Drones specifically say that they do count towards 25%. Here is the issue I would like to see addressed, how does wargear count towards total unit size especially for a unit that in it's entry is an independent character not a unit of 1-3?

Better question, how does wargear count towards total unit size on a unit that is not an IC and may never be joined and is always a single model?

Happyjew wrote:Better question, how does wargear count towards total unit size on a unit that is not an IC and may never be joined and is always a single model?

That depends. Does the wargear have a characteristic profile as described on BRB page 7?

Brothererekose wrote:
All this rules discussion aside, would you be harsh on the tau player for not buying a BK and deny him the rally?

Yes. It's 5 points. I try to enforce rules when I play :-)
I also try to hold myself to the rules, even when my opponent says it's okay (Ie if I forget to shoot a unit before doing assaults - he's okay with me shooting, but I decline... Cost me a game or two.

haendas wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Better question, how does wargear count towards total unit size on a unit that is not an IC and may never be joined and is always a single model?

That depends. Does the wargear have a characteristic profile as described on BRB page 7?

As I don't have the Space Wolves codex, I don't know. However, based on the FAQ I would assume they do since they can be attacked in close combat.

rigeld2 wrote:

Brothererekose wrote:All this rules discussion aside, would you be harsh on the tau player for not buying a BK and deny him the rally?

Yes. It's 5 points. I try to enforce rules when I play :-)

No kiddin'! I try to enforece the rules too. Good thing, huh?

However, given the long way we've gone on this, to get to what appears to be the right Call (not rally as an IC, but because the farseer/lone XV8's unit Original Unit Strength is "1") the tau player might (quite likely) not be aware of this ... And to the degree at which tau are screwed in 5e ...

You'd harsh the guy? Friendly play? I wouldn't harsh the guy. It's a measly 5 points and I'd allow the rally.

In an RTT I'd check to see his list if the Shas had a BK. If not, before the game starts, I'd bring the TO over, explain how the Rally should be called for the Shas and let the tau player get his list right, either by purchasing the BK or tossing the drones.

I've played tau off&on for 6 years, and this is finally coming in to my understanding.

You'd still tell the guy, "Um, no. He can't rally." ?

Yes. same as I tell people that a single fleeing unit member, fleeing with the IC, will stop the unit from rallying. No, the IC may not leave the unit. No, the unit may not rally.

If you dont want to suffer from th penalty, spend 5 points.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes. same as I tell people that a single fleeing unit member, fleeing with the IC, will stop the unit from rallying. No, the IC may not leave the unit. No, the unit may not rally.

But that is an obvious, happens-often-in-games issue.

You'd still deny the rally as obscure as this topic's solution is, and how screwed tau already are?

That's pretty cut-throat and mean, Nos.

This is all really beside the point considering the OP's has been adamant about his motive of posting this thread, which was to find the correct way to rule on this issue. As a guy who plays Orks and Tau (granted my Tau experience is in mock vassal match ups with friends so I can prepare my force), I've seen plenty of models walk off of the table. In fact in my very first game as Tau I had my commander walk off of the table because of this issue. I'd rather play it right than have a player give me a ruling out of pity. When I win, I don't want an asterisk next to the battle saying that my opponent let me bend the rules (arguably this rule is debatable as this thread has proven, but that isn't the point I'm making with this post).

From the FAQ: ICs are not counted when working out if a squad is below half strength or not. The exception to this is if an IC is with a Retinue (in which case he is counted when working out if the squad is below half strength).
Thoughts?

For a squad they have joined

They havent "joined" the drones, they were purchased with them. the drones do NOT form a retinue, as proven because the IC remains an IC.

You know I think I have been reading and looking at this from the wrong angle. Yes the Drones do form a unit with the IC so I am wrong there (tucked in on page 31 in the third paragraph under drones) but I see how I was both right and wrong on this one. I was correct that the IC can regroup after all Drones are dead, I was wrong because I didn't think they became part of a unit. Here is why and this is also why I think nosferatu is wrong in his last post.

Page 31 Tau Codex
"If he is an independent character [...] but the character and drones may still join another unit."

then again on page 32
"If accompanied by drones, he may still join other units as an independent character.

It does not say he is still an independent character just that he may still act as an independent character.

... But why does that matter?

He's a unit member. His original unit size was 3. He is now down to 1. He is unable to rally.

Besides, if he could regroup by himself, why would he have the option of taking a bonding knife?

Oh wait, this is GW. Lets give units useless upgrades and use redundant rules...

Happyjew wrote:From the FAQ: ICs are not counted when working out if a squad is below half strength or not. The exception to this is if an IC is with a Retinue (in which case he is counted when working out if the squad is below half strength).
Thoughts?

Heh. Now, I'm back to my original position. He can rally.

Ah, well.

Too few tau players to worry. And since I tabled the last tau guy, I'm willing to allow a few liberties.

Ain't I a nice guy?

haendas wrote:This is all really beside the point considering the OP's has been adamant about his motive of posting this thread, which was to find the correct way to rule on this issue. As a guy who plays Orks and Tau (granted my Tau experience is in mock vassal match ups with friends so I can prepare my force), I've seen plenty of models walk off of the table. In fact in my very first game as Tau I had my commander walk off of the table because of this issue. I'd rather play it right than have a player give me a ruling out of pity. When I win, I don't want an asterisk next to the battle saying that my opponent let me bend the rules (arguably this rule is debatable as this thread has proven, but that isn't the point I'm making with this post).

Thanks! Even though I have my own opinion on the ruling, the most important part is that I know how to play it right.

I still hold firm that since the codex gives specific examples of when drones should be counted, and rallying isnt listed, that they dont count towards rallying.

Having no difinitive answer Im just going to let my buds read this thread and see if we can come to a conclusion as a group.

Im still not giving up hope that we might get a FAQ LOL

rigeld2 wrote:... But why does that matter?

He's a unit member. His original unit size was 3. He is now down to 1. He is unable to rally.

This.

The rules are very clear on this. People assume that ICs can magically always rally, but this is not the case. They have NO exception to the normal rules regarding rallying, therefore if you are 1 model left of a 3 model unit you CANNOT RALLY normally

So would I be right in assuming that an IC with a retinue of 4 models reduced to IC and 1 model would not be able to rally?

Yes, like any other unit. A retinue has absolutely NO bearing on a units ability to rally

Remember a commander with drones is NOT a retinue.