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I'm gonna dust off my tau army this weekend. ( haven't played it since 4th edition)

I did some searches but I keep finding contradicting answers.

I know that drones count for determining % of squad for morale purposes, but what about regrouping?

2 scenarios.

Crisis commander with 2 shield drones. When the drones are dead, and he becomes a IC, can he regroup after a failed morale check?

Same scenario but a crisis team leader with 2 drones. When both drones die, does his unit count as below 50% for regrouping?

The tau dex says that drones are counted for victory points purposes, morale checks, but no mention of regroup.

How about a tau crisis commander in combat? Do him and his drones count as a unit or does he count as his own like other IC's in combat?

BarBoBot wrote:I know that drones count for determining % of squad for morale purposes, but what about regrouping?
2 scenarios.
The Crisis commander with 2 shield drones; when the drones are dead, and he becomes a IC, can he regroup after a failed morale check?

Here, things get thin in any definitive ruling. I posed the same Q here on YMDC some months back. Rules lawyer, frequent YMDC poster Gwar! (now banned from dakka), a guy who was generally accurate with his rules citation, couldn't hunt up anything definitive. Neither did several others. Nothing states it for certain, given drones' goofy rules.

The general consensus was to let the Shas rally as an IC. Tau have it hard enough.

BarBoBot wrote:Same scenario but a crisis team leader with 2 drones. When both drones die, does his unit count as below 50% for regrouping?

If there were two suits, then they're at 50% and can rally. If it started as a trio, then no, they're at 40% models and need a BK or must hop off the table.

BarBoBot wrote:The tau dex says that drones are counted for victory points purposes, morale checks, but no mention of regroup.

Which doesn't negate them, given 40k's permissive rules set. BTW, Vic Points are gone in 5th Ed.

BarBoBot wrote:How about a tau crisis commander in combat? Do him and his drones count as a unit or does he count as his own like other IC's in combat?

The drones count as part of *him*, so all wounds directed at the IC, can then be Allocated to him and his drones as if they were a unit. Any wounds directed at say, some FWs he was attached to, could *not* be allocated to the Shas'el's drones.

Look up GW's Tau FAQ on their website for Devilfish/drone clarifications.

Thanks for the reply.

I have read the Tau FAQ, but I guess its not just me who got a little confused with those drones especially if its never been truely clarified by GW.

My guess is that they should not count since they are technically just wargear, and it kinda defeats the purpose of taking drones to allocate wounds to if your just gonna run off the table edge when they die.

I'll just talk it over with the group I just started playing with and see what they think.

BarBoBot wrote:Thanks for the reply.

I have read the Tau FAQ, but I guess its not just me who got a little confused with those drones especially if its never been truely clarified by GW.

Yep. Quite neglected for some time now.

BarBoBot wrote:My guess is that they should not count since they are technically just wargear, and it kinda defeats the purpose of taking drones to allocate wounds to if your just gonna run off the table edge when they die.

The counter argument you'll encounter is that they are *acquired* as wargear, but once on the table, unlike Deffrollas, DisPods, Jumppacks, Extra Armor, a Drone is a model with Stats. It can move, shoot and fight.

And I think I missed something in the first post. An IC with drones, given your fellow players being nice, ought to rally when by himself. But a Single Elite XV8, who takes drones, and is at 33% unit strength when he fails morale *will* not rally, that's fo' sho'. Not without a BK. To me, that 5 points of Bonding is worth it.

'Course, I don't put SDs with my XV8s anyway.

BarBoBot wrote:I'll just talk it over with the group I just started playing with and see what they think.

Best solution. Good luck.

BarBoBot wrote:
Crisis commander with 2 shield drones. When the drones are dead, and he becomes a IC, can he regroup after a failed morale check?

The IC and his drones form a unit together (pg 31 of the Tau codex) and therefore you follow all the normal rules for a unit unless specified otherwise. This makes the Commander part of a unit comprised of himself and his drones. The Tau codex rules still alllow him (and his drones) to join another unit, but that doesn't change the fact that when on their own they are still a unit.

So therefore, if a Tau Commander with drones falls back and his 'unit' (himself and his Drones) is under 50%, then he would be unable to regroup. So if you're really paranoid about this happening (and for some reason you like taking Drones for your Commander) then you're probably best off buying him a bonding knife as well.


Now, if the IC (with drones) is joined to ANOTHER unit the question changes a bit.

This is because the GW rulebook FAQ clarifies that joined ICs (and presumably the drones as well) do not count towards the 50% strength of a joined unit, because apparently 'half strength' refers to the starting strength of the unit, which the IC (and his drones) would not be included as part of.


So to recap:

• If the IC (and his drones) are joined to another unit and that unit falls back, you would check to see if the joined unit is under 50% of its starting strength or not (not including the IC and his drones). If it is under 50% of its starting strength then the unit (along with the joined IC and drones) would not be able to regroup.

• If the IC and his drones are on their own and are falling back, then you would look to see if THEY are at 50% of their starting strength or not (including the drones as they form a unit with the Commander). If they aren't (including if the IC is now on his own), then they would not be able to regroup.

Same scenario but a crisis team leader with 2 drones. When both drones die, does his unit count as below 50% for regrouping?

The tau dex says that drones are counted for victory points purposes, morale checks, but no mention of regroup.

Drones, being models with characteristics must be part of a unit and follow all the rules for units except where specified otherwise. Yes, the Tau Codex lists a few (redundant) examples of places Tau Drones 'count' as being part of the unit, but simply having those examples in place does not suddenly mean that Drones don't count as being part of the unit in any other case...that kind of logic would mean that Drones never get to move, shoot, or fight in an assault because the drone rules never specifically say they get to.

Or to put it another way, if I say that the Sun is a star, and that it is also hot and bright, just the fact that I pointed out that it is hot and bright does not now suddenly mean it is not anything I didn't specifically mention (like made of gas). Since I said that the sun was a star, we know that the sun is a star and would have all the normal characteristics of a star as such. The fact that I mentioned that the sun is also bright and hot are technically redundant.

So yes, Drones count as being part of the unit in call cases unless the rules specify otherwise. So a team leader with Drones are part of a unit's starting strength and therefore fully count towards figuring out if the unit is under 50% of its strength or not for the purposes of regrouping.

How about a tau crisis commander in combat? Do him and his drones count as a unit or does he count as his own like other IC's in combat?

If you read the rules for 'retinues' on page 48 of the rulebook you'll see that any unit which an IC is not allowed to leave during the game counts as a retinue. A Commander with Drones therefore fits this bill and follows those rules exactly except for their own special rule that still allows them to join other units as an IC even when they are accompanied by Drones.

So yes, a Commander and his drones fight together as a single unit IMHO.

Yakface,

Let's say farseer is with some Dire Avengers and they fall back, with only 3 DAs left outta 10. The Eldar player groans.

In the next enemy round, they get shot up again, and the Farseer is left on his lonesome. Can he rally as he is now back to being an IC?

Brothererekose wrote:Yakface,

Let's say farseer is with some Dire Avengers and they fall back, with only 3 DAs left outta 10. The Eldar player groans.

In the next enemy round, they get shot up again, and the Farseer is left on his lonesome. Can he rally as he is now back to being an IC?

Of course.

The difference here is that Drones and a Commander form a unit together, from which the Commander is not allowed to leave during the game.


So when a Farseer joins a Dire Avenger unit he is joining the unit of Dire Avengers. When that unit is wiped out, the unit of Dire Avengers no longer exists.

A Tau Commander with drones unit is a Tau Commander with drones unit. It starts the game that way and the Commander cannot leave it. So when the Drones die, the Tau Commander is now the last model remaining of the Tau Commander with drones unit.

yakface wrote:

Brothererekose wrote:Yakface,
Let's say farseer is with some Dire Avengers and they fall back, with only 3 DAs left outta 10. The Eldar player groans.
In the next enemy round, they get shot up again, and the Farseer is left on his lonesome. Can he rally as he is now back to being an IC?

Of course.
The difference here is that Drones and a Commander form a unit together, from which the Commander is not allowed to leave during the game.
So when a Farseer joins a Dire Avenger unit he is joining the unit of Dire Avengers. When that unit is wiped out, the unit of Dire Avengers no longer exists.
A Tau Commander with drones unit is a Tau Commander with drones unit. It starts the game that way and the Commander cannot leave it. So when the Drones die, the Tau Commander is now the last model remaining of the Tau Commander with drones unit.

I disagree, as the XV8 is an IC, with or without drones. And the codex isn't clear enough on drones/retinue, and ... well, *if* we still had a retinue unit set-up left in 40k, besides tau, wouldn't the IC in that unit be able to rally, once he was alone again?

Brothererekose wrote:
I disagree, as the XV8 is an IC, with or without drones. And the codex isn't clear enough on drones/retinue, and ... well, *if* we still had a retinue unit set-up left in 40k, besides tau, wouldn't the IC in that unit be able to rally, once he was alone again?

Page 31 of the Tau codex:

"Drones must maintain coherency with the unit their controller is in. If he is an independent character, then the drones and charter form a unit but the character and drones may still join another unit."


And page 48 of the rulebook:

"Retinues
Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue',
'bodyguard' or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of thi s unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character and it will do so for the rest of the game."


Do you think the character can leave the unit he forms with his Drones during the game? If not, then it qualifies as a retinue per the main rulebook with any exceptions listed in the Tau codex (being able to still join other units).

yakface wrote:And page 48 of the rulebook:

"Retinues
Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue',
'bodyguard' or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of thi s unit are killed,at which point it starts counting as an independent character and it will do so for the rest of the game."

This confirms it for me.

Once the drones are gone, the lone, surviving Crisis Suit is back to being an IC, and could therefore rally, like our poor farseer a few posts up.

yakface wrote:Do you think the character can leave the unit he forms with his Drones during the game? If not, then it qualifies as a retinue per the main rulebook with any exceptions listed in the Tau codex (being able to still join other units).

*scratches head* Of course he can't leave his drones, but I don't think the question is relevant as we're pursuing whether or not he can rally once they're destroyed. And, I believe the citation in green confirms it.

Non-sequitor:
You ought to bring *your* tau to the new Game Empire location for a Tuesday Night 40k. Or your orks. Big, glorious new space!

Being an IC doesnt "let you" rally - its just that ICs are usually 1 model units, and so (by themselves) cannot be below 50%

Tau commanders with drones are entirely different. They are a unit of 1 - 3 models, with a starting size of 1 - 3 models. If you have 3 models and 2 die, that last model is unable to rally.

Being an IC doesnt help here.

when I did some searches, this is exactly how all the threads I found ended up...half saying 1 thing, half saying another.

Seems like this needs a FAQ, but if it hasnt happened by now...

On a similar note, would this apply to Fenrisian Wolves (which are also wargear)?

Yes. They increase the starting size of the ICs unit, and are models in their own right.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Being an IC doesnt "let you" rally - its just that ICs are usually 1 model units, and so (by themselves) cannot be below 50%

Um, what about the farseer example Yakface and I exchanged above?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tau commanders with drones are entirely different. They are a unit of 1 - 3 models, with a starting size of 1 - 3 models. If you have 3 models and 2 die, that last model is unable to rally.
Being an IC doesnt help here.

Nos, as I stated in the first post, and as BarBoBot stated here:

BarBoBot wrote:when I did some searches, this is exactly how all the threads I found ended up...half saying 1 thing, half saying another.

Seems like this needs a FAQ, but if it hasnt happened by now...

... it is rather contencious. Unless you care to cite anything?

My citation is what Yakface gave us in green above. I don't see much in the C:tau that'd nay-say it.

Your post in green doesnt alter anything.
For a start it isnt a retinue - one requirement of a retinue is that you act as a UC, yet you dont - you are STILL an IC (as evidenced by the fact you can join units) all the time the drones are alive AND when they die. You are not a retinue.

What is your starting unit size? 1 - 3
If you start at unit size 3, and lose two models, are you below 50%? Yes. Does that mean you can rally? No

5 Points - Bonding Knife.

Problem Solved.

Bonding knife is not in question. Everyone knows what it does.

The conundrum Is weather drones, who are wargear are considered for rallying.

IF they are not, then your wasting 5 points per squad with the bonding knife.

IF they are, then it's 5 points worth spending.

I'm not calling anyone wrong, but IMHO I dont think drones were intended to be counted for rallying. The codex explains specific scenarios for when drones should be counted, but no mention of regrouping.

If drones that are bought as wargear (not squadrons) were intended to act exactly the same as any other model in every scenario, then why did GW point out specific examples for which they should be counted and not just say drones bought as wargear count as regular models in all scenarios?

Not to mention that fluff wise, if a commander of a army loses his 2 artificial intelligence drones, which are only there to die in his place anyway, would he run screaming off the board leaving his whole army behind?

I hate to say it, but the rules regarding drones and leadership all attribute towards things from 4th edition, meaning they count towards seeing if the unit is below 50%. Currently either take one drone on your IC or take a bonding knife.

In the codex it specifically states drones are counted for determining if a squad is below 50% for VICTORY POINTS which has been pointed out is no longer part of the game.

Even though specific examples are shown for when drones are counted, nothing in the dex says they are counted for rallying.

Examples show are:

Count drones when determining morale checks for 25% casualties.

count drones to determine if a unit is strong enough to claim an objective. (outdated as that is)

From the dex: " if their unit suffers losses, drones are counted when determining if it is below 50% for victory point purposes"

Why would they spell out those examples if drones act as normal models in ALL scenarios?

Simple answer is that they didn't intend drones to ALWAYS be counted as normal models in every scenario. Only the ones specifically stated.

This should just be cleared up by GW, just to give a final answer instead of leaving such a grey area.

Rules wise there is NO grey area. None whatsoever, as has been explained repeatedly

You can argue intent till the cows come home.

Then please explain why the codex gives specific examples for when the drones should be counted as part of the unit if they ALWAYS apply like you say?

Because GW likes redundancy? Seriously, they spew redundant rules all over the place.

Ruleswise there IS NO GREY AREA. None.

Why would they give specific examples of when they should be counted, but not ALL the times when they should be counted?

That IS a grey area, by ANY definition...

Try doing some research. Google it, check as many places as you want.

Every one of them ends the same way. Half believe 1 way half believe the other and ALL agree that GW should FAQ it....no grey area? Give me a break.

Erm, did you ignore my post about GWs love of redundant rules? I assume you did, otherwise your first question has no relevance

Peoples opinions on whether there is a grey area doesnt alter that, from a strictly rules perspective, there is no grey area.

RAI? Yeah, there is a grey area. BEcause its RAI, there will ALWAYS be a grey area.

Go ahead and argue all you want.

Try to make my point invalid if you want.

The codex gives SPECIFIC examples of when you should count drones, and NO mention of others.

My point is valid. If they intended for drones to act as normal models 100% of the time, they wouldn't have given SPECIFIC examples for when they should be counted. Drones would just act as normal models, you know....just like every other model...

Thats not how it is though. They DID say when drones should be counted, and the fact that they did that is PROOF that drones do NOT ALWAYS get counted.

I really don't care which way GW goes with it, I just want to know how it's SUPPOSED to be played.

Do you even HAVE a tau codex? Have you bothered reading it?

It's not redundant. Drones have their OWN section that explains how they work with SPECIFIC examples. If anything it's the OPPOSITE of redundant. They were not specific enough.

So why start a thread when your mind is made up? Whats the point?

Your point is invalid due to a simple test: the rulebook tells you that the number of models a unit starts with determines when it can rally

Now you are required to find a RULE in the codex that *specifically* alters that for drones. What, a rule doesnt exist? Well guess what - that means the rule stills applies.

I have both Tau dexes, and me and my partner have approximately 4000 points of tau including AX1-0, XV-9 heavy suits and others. You do realise exactly how many logical fallacies you are making just in this thread alone?

There. Is. No. Rules. Grey. Area. There just isnt, and your constant failure to show any rules issues simply proves it.

I stated why I made this thread in my last post.

I want to know the CORRECT way to play it.

I also have both tau codex as well. I'm fact I have been playing them since they were first released.

Its not complicated. The drone rules for when they are counted are spelled out. You fail to mention that the rulebook says models can have specific rules that overrule it in the codex.

I would say ( and MANY others agree) that the list of limitations spelled out in detail in the tau codex DOES overrule that rule by stating the SPECIFIC times when you should count drones.

Your ignorance of that changes nothing.

Come off your high horse, and do some research. This exact same subject has been debated for quite some time, and you will find just as many people agree with me as they do with you.

The only difference is your the only one arrogant enough to say that your 100% right and that it's not unclear...when YEARS of discussion would say otherwise.

1) it is not my ignorance, but yours. Again, Ive pointed out the rules, you say they dont matter.
2) you dont seem to understand how the rules operate. Specific > General. so when you have a general rule that states something, you need a specific rule contradicting that in order to not be held by the more general rule

There is no specific rule stating drones dont count for Rallying, so they do. Its that simple. I really dont care about others opinions on RAI, as quite frankly a discussion on RAI is pointless.

Wow... You really are dense.

You choose to ignore the fact that they DO tell you when drones should be used.

Once again I'll say it. Why would the codex make a point to spell out the specific examples of when they should be counted, but not ALL the examples of when they should be counted hmmmm?

Answer THAT! Oh yeah "redundancy" ......except it isn't redundant. Redundant would mean that the rules were written 2 times but said the same thing....making it redundant.... Do the rules spelled out for drones MATCH the rules for other models? Not the ones written in MY codex, how about yours?


Personal attacks are in violation of Rule Number One. Please make your points without resorting to insults. Thanks! ~Manchu