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Nothing the Greeks built is even close in scale to the pyramids.

You don't hear people saying the Forbidden City and Angkor Wat were built by aliens, and the the Chinese and Cambodians certainly aren't white.

Monster Rain wrote:Nothing the Greeks built is even close in scale to the pyramids.

You don't hear people saying the Forbidden City and Angkor Wat were built by aliens, and the the Chinese and Cambodians certainly aren't white.

You've never been around the Internet/'Ancient Aliens" then.

Albatross wrote:Stonehenge was built by people that we would recognise as being white europeans. It's not even that old - there are stone houses in the British Isles that pre-date it by around 1000 years.

So the aliens were there that early, helping the white man stay out of the rain? What were these aliens doing for non-white people at that point? Maybe it is the aliens who are racist?

Chowderhead wrote:No, it's that White people of yesteryear couldn't believe that something like the Pyramids or stonehenge were not built by their "Master Race", and so they came up with that they were made by Aliens as a coping method.

Why would they care? Rome conquered all those non-whites and achieved similar if not greater feats. I'm not saying that there wasn't at some point some racist who suggested aliens did it. I'm saying that theory is not connected to current shenanigans, and that the racist one was never a widespread belief among westerners.

Everything that I've seen about Angkor Wat and Aliens is that the population disappeared, not that it was impossible to be built by humans at the time.

Do you have any links to the contrary?

No sir I do not, I would contend that the western view of china and the far east as a whole at that time was considerably different to it's view of africa.

Possibly.

Still, I would contend that if the Pyramids were somewhere else the same questions would have be raised.

And I agree.

However I do still believe there was a racial element to some prominent advocates of the ancient aliens theory when it first arose (which as far as I know was the mid 20th cenutry).

White people are good at killing loads of dudes though, so, we got that at least.

OH YEAH! In your country killing your dudes and kicking over your sandcastles!

Ketara wrote:

Finally, I give you the Quackers:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quacker_(sound)

Tl;dr version:-

-In the 1970's.
-Soviet subs detected some bizare quacking noises in a certain region of the Arctic Ocean.
-The origin of these noises was undetectable on sonar.
-Application of the Doppler Shift (figuring out the speed of a noise by its frequency) indicated the origin of the noises was moving up to 200km/ph.
-The generator of these noises was detected circling the crafts that detected it/them
-When sounds were broadcast back at it, the origin of the noises shifted its own frequency or moved about, showing a clear reaction to the broadcast sounds.
-They began to crop up all over the place, including the North Sea, so the Soviets formed a Joint Commission with the Royal Navy, which proved completely inconclusive.
-The detection of these quackers increased for a period of time, and then began to slowly decrease.
-They gave up in the eighties trying to figure out what it was and monitoring it.

Quacking is a simple sound, it could be reproduced electronically.

It could appear to be moving at 200kph by stringing a number of quack signal generators on a towed array or boom, it may also possible to make an 'audible illusion' that appears to be doing something it is not.

I suspect that the signals were generated by a western naval intelligence agency for the following purposes:
- Get the Soviet Navy to waste time and money in an investigation. Even the Soviet union cannot have too manty veteran submarine crews. They need to be focused on their real jobs.
- A 'leak test' for want of better description. Generate phenomena worth chatting about and observing who does.
- Hoodwinking Soviet subs into using active broadcast and sonar systems thus giving away their positions and allowing observers to analyse the active sonar signals. This appears to have been successful, getting a sub to give away its immeidate position is useful even in expected peace time because you can better track that sub and record it. The recording used are fed into computer giving a better audible sugniture of the sub type, and the same signal is then listened for by on board computers thus improving sonar efficiency. A lot of clues can also be gleaned by listening to a subs active sonar.
- Royal Navy/Soviet cooperation is an excuse to spy, if you are directing the input you can beter analyse the output. If there is a data exchange the original signals can be compared to Soviet sonar logs, it will tell us far more than our own sonar logs will tell them without said signals.
- It sounds like a jolly good bit of fun, in an tweedy intellectual sort of way, with real Russians to bait to boot! What more could you ask.

This whole set up sniffs of MI6, especially back then. It looks like one of their lateral thinking jobs, that dont appear to do much but can yield a lot. Its a pity that the Uk national culture doesnt encourage thinking of this quality anymore.

corpsesarefun wrote:(which as far as I know was the mid 20th cenutry).

Racism has nothing to do with the rise of the current theory in the 1960's. That got started by Erich von Daniken and his book Chariots of the Gods, which wasn't even about Africa but Asia, the Americas, Stonehenge, and the Indies as well. The earliest author of an articulate ancient aliens idea was Zacharia Sitchin of Planet X/Nibiru fame. His work was not racist, not in the sense you mean anyway. If anything the ancient astronauts idea is most heavily invested in the idea that human intelligence was actually bred into our species through interaction with aliens and certain physical acts. The theory suggests all humanity achieved what it did because of aliens, not just one group.

Monster Rain wrote:I think this is trying a bit too hard to inject racism somewhere, frankly.

At the same time these ancient aliens theories developed there was also a whole host of theories about lost tribes of white people setting up in these locations, building these great monuments before disappearing mysteriously.

So no, it really isn't that much of a stretch at all.


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CptJake wrote:I'm pretty sure I've seen aliens mentioned as being involved with Stonehenge. Doesn't that throw a wrench in the "racists made up the aliens" theory?

Only if you don't read what I'm saying.

Stonehenge as an alien thing is relatively new idea in kookland. The idea that white people created it was fine, as was the idea that white people created the Parthenon and all kinds of other ancient stuff.

The ancient alien thing has taken on a life of it's own, and long since distanced itself from its racist origins (as I've said several times now, the ancient alien folk now overstate the achievements of the ancient wonders, in order to justify their aliens theories, ironically enough).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

corpsesarefun wrote:The whole "aliens built stonehenge" thing is a continuation of the ancient aliens thing that is considerably more recent.

I have heard what sebster mentioned a few times before and it is a perfectly logical conclusion that there was a racial element given when and where the idea came about.

In fact I am more than a little surprised so many people are so defensive over the idea.

It is really kind of odd, isn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CptJake wrote:Got it. So when folks longer ago couldn't explain something as hard to explain as the pyramids, so went with the alien theory, they did so because they were racist.

But more modern folks who use that theory for Stonehenge are just screwballs.

Are you actually going to sit there and feign surprise at the idea that people in the late 19th and early 20th century were racist? Are you actually going to sit there and be that ridiculous?


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Monster Rain wrote:So if the Pyramids had been located in, say, Sweden people wouldn't have the same questions?

Maybe, maybe not.

As we've seen in the last few decades, the fringe industry of pseudo-science can fuel itself quite happily by people letting to believe exciting stuff about aliens. So it likely could have developed without any orginal need to reconcile racist notions about the world with all the cool stuff that not white people built.


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LordofHats wrote:Why would they care? Rome conquered all those non-whites and achieved similar if not greater feats. I'm not saying that there wasn't at some point some racist who suggested aliens did it. I'm saying that theory is not connected to current shenanigans, and that the racist one was never a widespread belief among westerners.

First up, no-one is saying that there's any strong racist component to the modern day kooks.

Second up, are you claiming that 'aliens did it' was never a widespread belief (in which case I agree) or are you saying that there was no racist component to the majority of early aliens did it beliefs - in which case you're simply wrong.

I think maybe people aren't aware how strong racist beliefs were at the end of the 19th century...


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LordofHats wrote:Racism has nothing to do with the rise of the current theory in the 1960's.

That is what everyone is saying. That theory had it's origins in earlier ideas, which wer considerably more racist.

That got started by Erich von Daniken and his book Chariots of the Gods, which wasn't even about Africa but Asia, the Americas, Stonehenge, and the Indies as well. The earliest author of an articulate ancient aliens idea was Zacharia Sitchin of Planet X/Nibiru fame.

That's the revival of the theory, and yes, that stuff isn't racist.

For the racist origins of the theory you have to look at the stuff written in the late 19th and early 20th century to see it's original, racist component.

sebster wrote:First up, no-one is saying that there's any strong racist component to the modern day kooks.

No one said it wasn't (explicitly) and I hoped to make that clear so we wouldn't have people going around claiming that the current theory is racist. Apparently I failed.

Second up, are you claiming that 'aliens did it' was never a widespread belief (in which case I agree)

I agree as well.

or are you saying that there was no racist component to the majority of early aliens did it beliefs - in which case you're simply wrong.

I'm saying that the belief that "aliens did it" is not an integral aspect of the racism of Western society. That few westerners took aliens an answer to the question. If there's a crazy idea, someone's proposed it somewhere at sometime. It's a given It's just a question of if anyone listened. In this case I don't think anyone did.

Monster Rain wrote:

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the race of the people involved. I'm sure they don't think that the Ancient Celts or whatever would have been able to do it better than the Nubians or Egyptians.

*raises hand*

What's a Nubian?

Anyway, I had heard of the first, but not the second two. Thanks for the post.

malfred wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the race of the people involved. I'm sure they don't think that the Ancient Celts or whatever would have been able to do it better than the Nubians or Egyptians.

*raises hand*

What's a Nubian?

Anyway, I had heard of the first, but not the second two. Thanks for the post.

Citizen of an ancient kingdom that was south of Egypt until Egypt conquered them... lots of gold mines.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

malfred wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the race of the people involved. I'm sure they don't think that the Ancient Celts or whatever would have been able to do it better than the Nubians or Egyptians.

*raises hand*

What's a Nubian?

Anyway, I had heard of the first, but not the second two. Thanks for the post.

Citizen of an ancient kingdom that was south of Egypt until Egypt conquered them... lots of gold mines.

They're also cultural ancestors to the Numidians, a later North African neighbor of Carthage.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

malfred wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the race of the people involved. I'm sure they don't think that the Ancient Celts or whatever would have been able to do it better than the Nubians or Egyptians.

*raises hand*

What's a Nubian?

Anyway, I had heard of the first, but not the second two. Thanks for the post.

Citizen of an ancient kingdom that was south of Egypt until Egypt conquered them... lots of gold mines.

Sorry, movie reference.

sebster wrote:At the same time these ancient aliens theories developed there was also a whole host of theories about lost tribes of white people setting up in these locations, building these great monuments before disappearing mysteriously.

So no, it really isn't that much of a stretch at all.

Something something correlation, something something causation.

I thought Nubians were from Star Wars 1. Guess you learn something new every day.

malfred wrote:What's a Nubian?

Shut the up!

... and scene.

Coolyo294 wrote:I thought Nubians were from Star Wars 1. Guess you learn something new every day.

That's even funnier given the context of the movie reference.

Indeed.

That was pretty much perfect.

LordofHats wrote:I'm saying that the belief that "aliens did it" is not an integral aspect of the racism of Western society. That few westerners took aliens an answer to the question. If there's a crazy idea, someone's proposed it somewhere at sometime. It's a given It's just a question of if anyone listened. In this case I don't think anyone did.

Sure, it wasn't popularised until von Daniken and co. I guess there was a tougher market for fantastical silliness in the late 19th century.


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Monster Rain wrote:Something something correlation, something something causation.

sebster wrote:

LordofHats wrote:I'm saying that the belief that "aliens did it" is not an integral aspect of the racism of Western society. That few westerners took aliens an answer to the question. If there's a crazy idea, someone's proposed it somewhere at sometime. It's a given It's just a question of if anyone listened. In this case I don't think anyone did.

Sure, it wasn't popularised until von Daniken and co. I guess there was a tougher market for fantastical silliness in the late 19th century.

Madam Blavatsky's Theosophical Society would like a word with you.

sebster wrote:Sure, it wasn't popularised until von Daniken and co. I guess there was a tougher market for fantastical silliness in the late 19th century.

It helped when people finally had a firm grasp on what an extraterrestrial was

Orlanth wrote:
This whole set up sniffs of MI6, especially back then. It looks like one of their lateral thinking jobs, that dont appear to do much but can yield a lot. Its a pity that the Uk national culture doesnt encourage thinking of this quality anymore.

Interestingly enough, I was discussing the issue with someone I know, and whilst we came up with that as a possibility, we also come up with the potential for it to be a Soviet exercise, in which they supposedly came to the Navy for help, in order to see precisely what kinds of readings the Navy were capable of getting on their equipment. So reverse reverse psychology, so to speak.

Here's my thoughts on your above points:-

Quacking is a simple sound, it could be reproduced electronically.

No doubt, although it wasn't actually 'quacking' like a duck per se, that was just how the Soviet sailors described the noise.

It could appear to be moving at 200kph by stringing a number of quack signal generators on a towed array or boom, it may also possible to make an 'audible illusion' that appears to be doing something it is not.

The first of these is impossible, simply because the originator of the noises was detected to be 'circling' the submarine. A surface boat would also have been visible to detection equipment. Wherever these noises were coming from was underwater, and moving under independent power (as they slowed, turned, ascended, etc).

I suspect that the signals were generated by a western naval intelligence agency for the following purposes:

I think it definitely could be. The only thing that disturbs this train of thought is the supposed logical impossibility between what was picked up as a matter of record, and the limitations of this theory.

- Get the Soviet Navy to waste time and money in an investigation. Even the Soviet union cannot have too manty veteran submarine crews. They need to be focused on their real jobs.
- A 'leak test' for want of better description. Generate phenomena worth chatting about and observing who does.
- Hoodwinking Soviet subs into using active broadcast and sonar systems thus giving away their positions and allowing observers to analyse the active sonar signals. This appears to have been successful, getting a sub to give away its immeidate position is useful even in expected peace time because you can better track that sub and record it. The recording used are fed into computer giving a better audible sugniture of the sub type, and the same signal is then listened for by on board computers thus improving sonar efficiency. A lot of clues can also be gleaned by listening to a subs active sonar.
- Royal Navy/Soviet cooperation is an excuse to spy, if you are directing the input you can beter analyse the output. If there is a data exchange the original signals can be compared to Soviet sonar logs, it will tell us far more than our own sonar logs will tell them without said signals.
- It sounds like a jolly good bit of fun, in an tweedy intellectual sort of way, with real Russians to bait to boot! What more could you ask.

I can certainly agree with all of these as motivations. I could paint a similar picture for either the US or Soviet intelligence services as being the originators of the 'quackers'.

The only issue I have is that absolutely none of the motivations explain the issues with the capability of the Royal Navy, the US Navy, or the Soviet Navy to perpetrate the scenario as it occurred (no engine noise, imperceptible to sonar, the speeds in excess of what our engines are capable of, and the widespread phenomena at one stage of the game). These are all accomplishments that we know of at the moment as being incredibly difficult/maybe impossible to replicate with current day technology, yet alone that of 40 years ago.

Hence as the title says,.....things you'd usually dismiss as hoaxes....but aren't.

Arkon wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Im not saying that the Pharaohs couldnt use a gak ton of slaves to build pyramids, because that I think is totally how most of the ancient structures were built, the will to do it, and enough slaves to pull it off. But what gets me wondering, is when you have stone slabs that weigh over 20-100 tons, and they are rested on top of a couple other slabs of equal size, and they are perfectly aligned. Yes, today we can move objects that weigh that much, and get their edges lined up perfectly, but we have to use incredibly powerful cranes with hydraulics and steel cables that can handle the weight. They had rope and wooden tools. Does make you wonder just how the feth they pulled it off.

Some believe that it was actually synthetic stone.

Link.

I wasnt talking about the pyramids in Egypt TBH, but that is a pretty interesting link. Thanks for sharing that one.

Monster Rain wrote:Madam Blavatsky's Theosophical Society would like a word with you.

Ha! I had forgotten all about those guys until you just reminded me. Cheers for that.

No problem, buddy.

I'm a student of the strange.

Ketara wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
This whole set up sniffs of MI6, especially back then. It looks like one of their lateral thinking jobs, that dont appear to do much but can yield a lot. Its a pity that the Uk national culture doesnt encourage thinking of this quality anymore.

Interestingly enough, I was discussing the issue with someone I know, and whilst we came up with that as a possibility, we also come up with the potential for it to be a Soviet exercise, in which they supposedly came to the Navy for help, in order to see precisely what kinds of readings the Navy were capable of getting on their equipment. So reverse reverse psychology, so to speak.

This is true, hence the paranoia over even simple things. Russians have long known how to play this game well. Uk and Soviet intelligence had similar mentalities in early years they had 'wheels within wheels' wheras most agencies were on the mentality of 'cops and robbers'. It took a while for others to learn but eventually they caught up with the concept of subtle, however the convoluted mentality remained still a key part of the way British and Russian agencies liked to do things and from what little that reached the public some of the games played on each other were subtle and indirect to the pioint that practically anything could be seen to be taken as part of a plot.

Ketara wrote:

It could appear to be moving at 200kph by stringing a number of quack signal generators on a towed array or boom, it may also possible to make an 'audible illusion' that appears to be doing something it is not.

The first of these is impossible, simply because the originator of the noises was detected to be 'circling' the submarine. A surface boat would also have been visible to detection equipment. Wherever these noises were coming from was underwater, and moving under independent power (as they slowed, turned, ascended, etc).

What you can do with light you can do with sound, only easier and harder to detect, eyes work better than submarines sonar to people fathoming out what is going on.
I do not know how a magician can make something disappear or appear to be elsewhere but rest assured all those tricks are known to intelligence agencies. In WW2 stage magicians were employed to disguise terrain features against aircraft to the extent that the same technique used by a stage magician to make someone disappear was used to make the Suez canal invisible to German bombers.

I would not say you couldnt make a sound appear to circle a submarine. Sonar is cripplingly basic even now compared to our mortal senses. I bet it would be relatively easy to fool a sub with the right set up, apprently for illusionist tricks angle and set up are important and that should be simple to arrange. Especially if sonar is the only sense the target has to go with. Just think of the Russian sub as the mark in a competent magicians stage show, how far could you go with hoodwinking it. Perhaps jokingly equivalent to: "Comrade, they have sawn the Kirov in half!"

Ketara wrote:
I can certainly agree with all of these as motivations. I could paint a similar picture for either the US or Soviet intelligence services as being the originators of the 'quackers'.

Maybe but its not really fits the profile for US mentality, they tend to work on a problem more directly. Though they are aware of this and going against type is a standard tactic.

Ketara wrote:
The only issue I have is that absolutely none of the motivations explain the issues with the capability of the Royal Navy, the US Navy, or the Soviet Navy to perpetrate the scenario as it occurred (no engine noise, imperceptible to sonar, the speeds in excess of what our engines are capable of, and the widespread phenomena at one stage of the game). These are all accomplishments that we know of at the moment as being incredibly difficult/maybe impossible to replicate with current day technology, yet alone that of 40 years ago.

Not beyond the possibility of 'stage' illusion. Its not what happened it its what appearted to happen, and with a sonar signal that leaves a lot of room for some jiggery pokery.