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Frazzled wrote:

Blacksails wrote:I was under the impression that if you said aloud another nation's anthem and pledge of allegiance/similar written document, that you automatically revoked your current citizenship and adopted that nation's citizenship. That whole class just became Mexican! Heresy!

/endsarcasm

That student took it WAY too seriously. Blown way out of proportion. This is why we can't have nice things.

You're forgetting, there's a bit of history between Mexico and Texas. I think the best comparison would be for a Brit to be told to recite the French pledge of allegiance (again if they have one).

When did the French squat on the British Isles and then decide to kick the Brits off and claim it as their own? Sure they have warred against eachother, but I don't recall them completely taking over the British Isles. The Ex-pat American squatters are still in Texas, the French aren't still occupying Britain with the British of somewhere nearby mumbling to themselves in hushed tones and giving angry looks.

1066.

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:CAPS LOCK MAKES THIS THREAD MORE IMPORTANT

I don't see anything wrong with this. Famous or often used phrases are used to teach foreign languages all the time and mexico is the closest spanish speaking country. This is only questionable if you're a hyperconservative demagogue or one of their sheep.

Or if you take pledges seriously.

Yes, I am sure all the children at the beginning of school sing the Pledge of Alliegiance to the United States of America with all their heart and soul, and pay special attention to the most important part.."one nation, UNDER GOD!!!"

Personally, I sang "Under Zod".

But then, I'm a nerd.

I don't think we even said the pledge in my school district after 5th grade, which would have been in 1996. Maybe there was a legal change, or maybe it was only a primary school thing, I don't really remember because I never paid any attention to it.

chaos0xomega wrote:I didn't bother to read anything after the 5th post or so. You clearly missed the point. A pledge of allegiance is an OATH OF LOYALTY. I know most Americans, and presumably most people from other countries think of it as something they are forced to say every morning in secondary school, etc. But the words actually have a meaning and the Pledge has its purpose. Reciting another countries pledge of allegiance is in effect act of treason in its own subtle way. Besides that, reciting an oath/pledge without meaning the words that come out of your mouth is technically bearing false witness.

Theres a reason why its called a "Pledge of Allegiance" and not something to the effect of "Statement of National Solidarity" or somesuch. I couldn't care less about the national anthem, ultimately its a song and doesn't necessarily mean anything, but the Pledge is kind of, or is supposed to be, a big deal.

I was gonna put a counter-point here but Agnosto did such a good job i won't bother...

corpsesarefun wrote:1066.

I'm assuming you are referring to the Battle of Hastings and the Norman conquest of England. I didn't realize the Normans and the French were the same thing. I don't believe my statement said there were never any invasions or wars of any kind, just that the French didn't come squat in England, then declare war, and push all the English off and never leave. If he had used the Norman invasion as his example that would be more applicable.

Meh the normans were effectively french, it is a bit silly trying to talk about countries in europe over such a long period of time due to the boundries changing every hundred years or so.

Ahtman wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:1066.

I'm assuming you are referring to the Battle of Hastings and the Norman conquest of England. I didn't realize the Normans and the French were the same thing. I don't believe my statement said there were never any invasions or wars of any kind, just that the French didn't come squat in England, then declare war, and push all the English off and never leave. If he had used the Norman invasion as his example that would be more applicable.

Normans aren't French... or weren't.
Also William was mostly Viking descent anyway.

corpsesarefun wrote:Meh the normans were effectively french

I disagree, and I imagine they would to. Also, tell a Persian he is effectively Arab. They love that too.

corpsesarefun wrote:it is a bit silly trying to talk about countries in europe over such a long period of time due to the boundries changing every hundred years or so.

I agree, but, again, I didn't bring up the comparison.

I suppose coming from the UK makes me extremely lax on nationality, much of the north of England is of Scandinavian stock (much like the normans) yet would say they were English so I would consider the normans (normandy being in france at the momet) to be french.

This probably if offensive and incorrect but so are most of the other options.

The idea of nationality being explicitly tied to a region of territory is relatively new, which also creates some issues in translating the way it was into contemporary parlance.

Indeed dogma, considering how people have moved around europe trying to use bloodlines for nationality is equally silly though.

corpsesarefun wrote:Indeed dogma, considering how people have moved around europe trying to use bloodlines for nationality is equally silly though.

I should have been more clear that I was speaking to the time period in reference, not modern Europe.

My point still stands, the normans had relatively recently moved south before moving onto the UK but at the time were born and bread in what we would now call france.

Before scandavia they had come from anywhere, the ancestors of the joynson/johnsons/johansons were jewish if you go back far enough for example.

corpsesarefun wrote:Indeed dogma, considering how people have moved around europe trying to use bloodlines for nationality is equally silly though.

I'm not really talking about bloodlines, so much as things like language, cuisine, cermony, etc. Basically culture, and all its trappings, but language especially.

That doesn't make it any less complicated, but it does allow for more appreciation of variance over time in terms of identification.

dogma wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Indeed dogma, considering how people have moved around europe trying to use bloodlines for nationality is equally silly though.

I'm not really talking about bloodlines, so much as things like language, cuisine, cermony, etc. Basically culture, and all its trappings, but language especially.

That doesn't make it any less complicated, but it does allow for more appreciation of variance over time in terms of identification.

Ah that is more useful I suppose.

corpsesarefun wrote:My point still stands, the normans had relatively recently moved south before moving onto the UK but at the time were born and bread in what we would now call france.

I don't think that the fact they invaded northern France meant they stopped considering themselves Norman. I don't feel the point still stands.

This is true.

It's a fair cop, nationality confounds me.

Amore useful tool would be to teach the students to say the American Pledge of Allegiance or sing the American National Anthem in Spanish... then you are promoting patriotism and a form of spanish to better mesh things of this nature...

Now on to my feelings/opinion... I declare heresy against the spanish teacher and everyone on any school board that thinks using another nation/countries emblems as play things. Those allegiances and pledges mean something to people, and when someone recites something out for the sake of... I would rather kids who didnt want to do the Pledge of Allegiance sit down as they clearly have no respect for the freedoms they in debt to. I guarantee that there would be people in Mexico pissed about this, making similar claims... I lived in Florida for a good portion of my life and the language laws we are interring in order to benefit illegals and such are the same as this atrocity... George Washington would turn butt up in his grave if he knew stuff like this was going on. So because Cuba and Puerto Rico are a swim away, I have to pay homage to a state/territory the US already owns and a communist country... I call BS!!!

WarlordRob117 wrote:Amore useful tool would be to teach the students to say the American Pledge of Allegiance or sing the American National Anthem in Spanish... then you are promoting patriotism and a form of spanish to better mesh things of this nature...

Now on to my feelings/opinion... I declare heresy against the spanish teacher and everyone on any school board that thinks using another nation/countries emblems as play things. Those allegiances and pledges mean something to people, and when someone recites something out for the sake of... I would rather kids who didnt want to do the Pledge of Allegiance sit down as they clearly have no respect for the freedoms they in debt to. I guarantee that there would be people in Mexico pissed about this, making similar claims... I lived in Florida for a good portion of my life and the language laws we are interring in order to benefit illegals and such are the same as this atrocity... George Washington would turn butt up in his grave if he knew stuff like this was going on. So because Cuba and Puerto Rico are a swim away, I have to pay homage to a state/territory the US already owns and a communist country... I call BS!!!

Really?
That's a bit much don't you think?

WarlordRob117 wrote:Amore useful tool would be to teach the students to say the American Pledge of Allegiance or sing the American National Anthem in Spanish... then you are promoting patriotism and a form of spanish to better mesh things of this nature...

No you're not. It's called immersion, and it's been the best way to learn a language since man said "Ooga ooga!"

Now on to my feelings/opinion... I declare heresy against the spanish teacher and everyone on any school board that thinks using another nation/countries emblems as play things.

Teaching tool, not a play thing. There is a big difference. If kids were laughing, or mixing in words like "Puta" into there, yes. It would be made fun of. But they aren't. They are treating it with respect.

Those allegiances and pledges mean something to people, and when someone recites something out for the sake of... I would rather kids who didnt want to do the Pledge of Allegiance sit down as they clearly have no respect for the freedoms they in debt to.

For the sake of learning? America is about acceptance, and treated people as brothers and sisters. It's patriotic to learn.

I guarantee that there would be people in Mexico pissed about this, making similar claims

Yeah, bs. I guarantee people in Mexico would applaud the teacher, for teaching the kids more than "Hey, kids! Mexico's a place where illegals come from!"

I lived in Florida for a good portion of my life and the language laws we are interring in order to benefit illegals and such are the same as this atrocity...

People wanting to have a better life is bad, now?

George Washington would turn butt up in his grave if he knew stuff like this was going on. So because Cuba and Puerto Rico are a swim away, I have to pay homage to a state/territory the US already owns and a communist country... I call BS!!!

Well, this is the most racist thing I have ever read on DakkaDakka. George Washington would be applauding, because his country has become accepting to the people he was oppressing.

Second, see "People wanting a better life is bad now?"



TL;DR: Look up "Ignorant American", and see the poster's Avatar.

WarlordRob117 wrote:Those allegiances and pledges mean something to people, and when someone recites something out for the sake of... I would rather kids who didnt want to do the Pledge of Allegiance sit down as they clearly have no respect for the freedoms they in debt to.

Well, those things mean something to some people, but not to others.

WarlordRob117 wrote:
I guarantee that there would be people in Mexico pissed about this, making similar claims... I lived in Florida for a good portion of my life and the language laws we are interring in order to benefit illegals and such are the same as this atrocity... George Washington would turn butt up in his grave if he knew stuff like this was going on. So because Cuba and Puerto Rico are a swim away, I have to pay homage to a state/territory the US already owns and a communist country... I call BS!!!

I didn't realize that having to endure the presence of Spanish translations on legal forms, and certain signs was a form of paying homage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote: It's patriotic to learn.

I don't know about that, but learning is something most people think of as good.

Chowderhead wrote:
Yeah, bs. I guarantee people in Mexico would applaud the teacher, for teaching the kids more than "Hey, kids! Mexico's a place where illegals come from!"

Some might, others might not, but most people probably don't care.

Chowderhead wrote:
George Washington would be applauding, because his country has become accepting to the people he was oppressing.

George Washington wouldn't have known what a Mexican, Cuban, or Puerto Rican was; not in the sense we do anyway. And he certainly wouldn't have been oppressing them.

To purple food:

Its not much to me... For I am one of the individuals responsible for the rights of Americans... I think if anyone should have a say to dictate a particular thought process its those who fight for said freedoms. In the military we have Culture awareness months where we have things ranging from salsa dance classes to speeches about how the average worked his way to becoming an equal in American Society... These things are inspiring as they truly teach the cultures of these great nations...

To Chowderhead:

How dare you accuse me of being a Racist when you have no idea my upbringing or my life... especially when you apparently dont even know what the word means... To be a racist is to be hateful towards a group due to their skin color... I am an American who has earned his place and I have a Puerto Rican father... your hypocrisy based on your ignorance is astounding...
People wanting to have a better life is one thing... people wanting to have a better life and do it the legal way that is established in law is the law... period... you dont just pass off judgment on a group because they have an admirable cause... if you are in America illegally then you are a dishonorable individual and should be immediately deported... its called life, deal with it...

I am further disturbed that you decided to take my statement out of context... My statement was in reference to the traditional mexican who would be offended that we are so casually teaching a very important part of mexican tradition for which we have no idea what its stands for until we live it. Stop being like every other person who claims to have an education and then let the veil fall because you have a brain fart... it makes you look unintelligent...

And I refuse to call anyone brother/sister unless theycome to America and follow American laws in doing so... again not racist in any way... America is not about acceptance its about Freedoms for Americans... not people who just live in America...

I consider it a play thing when a person stands up against their will... I wouldnt give a damn if I went back to school and I were the only one standing... I am man who went to hell and back to be able to say the Allegiance with pride, just like every mexican did the day the fought to regain control of the Alamo...

To Dogma: it is paying homage when you chose to forgoe basic American principles when you choose to accomodate rather force people who are here illegally that its ok to be here and break the law...

To all those reading this, take a step back and look at the big picture... I have the greatest respect for true Mexican American, African Americans, Asian Americans and every other nationality that followed the rules when the attempted to come here... When we stray from the rules for sympathy sake, we are dishonoring what we stand for as patrons and citizens of our own countries... to place priority over any other nationality than Americans in America is spitting on the graves of those I have fought with.

WarlordRob117 wrote:To purple food:

Its not much to me... For I am one of the individuals responsible for the rights of Americans... I think if anyone should have a say to dictate a particular thought process its those who fight for said freedoms. In the military we have Culture awareness months where we have things ranging from salsa dance classes to speeches about how the average worked his way to becoming an equal in American Society... These things are inspiring as they truly teach the cultures of these great nations...

I'd say learning the oath of alliegance of another country in their language can tell you a bit about a country...
You don't need to remember it or put meaning behind the words, if someone learnt my national anthem for instance i would be sincerely glad they were trying to learn more about my culture...

WarlordRob117 wrote:
To Dogma: it is paying homage when you chose to forgoe basic American principles when you choose to accomodate rather force people who are here illegally that its ok to be here and break the law...

I'm confused as to which basic American principles, whatever those are (probably just your principles), are being forgone. Its not like we have a national language.

WarlordRob117 wrote:
When we stray from the rules for sympathy sake, we are dishonoring what we stand for as patrons and citizens of our own countries...

Ah, I see, you care about honor. That's your first problem.

Your second problem is that you think this is a matter of sympathy by necessity.

WarlordRob117 wrote:
...to place priority over any other nationality than Americans in America is spitting on the graves of those I have fought with.

Language laws don't do that by necessity.

WarlordRob117 wrote:... For I am one of the individuals responsible for the rights of Americans...

Americans (or other humans for that matter) rights are not granted to us by the military, nor is the military responsible for creating them.

WarlordRob117 wrote:To Chowderhead:

How dare you accuse me of being a Racist when you have no idea my upbringing or my life... especially when you apparently dont even know what the word means... To be a racist is to be hateful towards a group due to their skin color... I am an American who has earned his place and I have a Puerto Rican father... your hypocrisy based on your ignorance is astounding...
People wanting to have a better life is one thing... people wanting to have a better life and do it the legal way that is established in law is the law... period... you dont just pass off judgment on a group because they have an admirable cause... if you are in America illegally then you are a dishonorable individual and should be immediately deported... its called life, deal with it...

Oh ho ho, now you're saying that only white people can be racist?

That's racist.

Melissia wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:CAPS LOCK MAKES THIS THREAD MORE IMPORTANT

I don't see anything wrong with this. Famous or often used phrases are used to teach foreign languages all the time and mexico is the closest spanish speaking country. This is only questionable if you're a hyperconservative demagogue or one of their sheep.

Or if you take pledges seriously.

Sing after me children!

"I pledge my allegience to all things dark. And i promise on my damned soul to do as i am told, for Beelzebub has never seen a soldier quite like me; not only does his job but does it happily!"

AHEM!





As for the topic.

Do I like it?

meh.

It's a Spanish class. They are learning to speak spanish. Whats the problem?

Now, if it were a math class, THEN it would be cause for concern.

Ahtman wrote:

purplefood wrote:... For I am one of the individuals responsible for the rights of Americans...

Americans (or other humans for that matter) rights are not granted to us by the military, nor is the military responsible for creating them.

Can I just say, I didn't say that...