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Config2 wrote:

Read the new Necron Fluff.

Now the "Bro-Fist" story makes sense fluffwise.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I based the six on what i commonly see on the net. Ccs, meltavets, chimera, vendetta, hydra, manticore.

If we base a Codex on "what we commonly see on the net", there's six units per book. Some have less.

I see your point on the vulture. And while i respect your opinion, i feel the vendetta works just as well. The missiles were replaced with lascannons.

Thanks for answering my off topic post.

Actually, the Vulture commonly had twin-linked Lascannons and a set of Multiple Rocket Pods as what came with it when it was full resin. Now though, it comes with MRPs and Hellstrike Missiles as 'standard' because that's what is in the Valkyrie kit.

Really, with the way the Blood Angels/Necron "alliance" was written in the Blood Angels codex, it wasn't really outlandish considering the old fluff either.

Kanluwen wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I based the six on what i commonly see on the net. Ccs, meltavets, chimera, vendetta, hydra, manticore.

If we base a Codex on "what we commonly see on the net", there's six units per book. Some have less.

I see your point on the vulture. And while i respect your opinion, i feel the vendetta works just as well. The missiles were replaced with lascannons.

Thanks for answering my off topic post.

Actually, the Vulture commonly had twin-linked Lascannons and a set of Multiple Rocket Pods as what came with it when it was full resin. Now though, it comes with MRPs and Hellstrike Missiles as 'standard' because that's what is in the Valkyrie kit.

If so it makes me wonder why they didnt put a vulture in the codex. Maybe it was to keep from gw from making a plastic vulture kit. I do like the vulture. But i also dont mind the vendetta.

Psybolt Ammo for 20 pts a squad, power armoured marines with stormbolters, force weapons and The Aegis for 4 pts more than an Initiate with a bolter, and the ability to take terminators as troops make playing against GK a thoroughly unpleasant experience. Seeing regular power armoured marines get torn apart at both close quarters and ranged firefights, and the fact that most of my weapons can't scratch GK terminator spam (I appreciate that Codex: BT is relatively outdated and our ability to take power weapons is almost non existent) makes me wonder what's even the point in playing such an army. Mech armies would get ripped up by psybolt AC dreads, and gun line would be annihilated by all the deep strikers. Simply because of my experience fighting GK, along with the occasional BA sanguinary priest immortal list, I harbour a strong dislike for the man responsible for making any non marine (with the exception of BT and DA) armies as weak as a grot against Ward's vampire/ supa-shiny marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://ohinternet.com/Matt_Ward

For fellow haters.

So it sounds like the people who don't like accuse him of writing like a child and the people who do like him think he is very good. Interesting. As an English Major, I don't find his work terrible in the least. Certainly better written than adult-level novels and the like. Granted it's not amazing either. Very interesting to see both sides. Thanks for all the points, everyone. It's given me a great deal to think about.

I've found his rules to be written with a sledgehammer. There is absolutely no elegance. When he wants to design a new game mechanic, he just does it from scratch and tacks it on rather than piggybacking on an existing mechanic. So you end up with these rules that don't interact whatsoever with other similar rules.

Simplicity and elegance are the PRIMARY GOALS you should have writing rules for games like this and Ward just doesn't have those.

Half of his rules would be improved with "this counts as X for the purposes of Y" tacked on to the end to answer the inevitable rules issue.

His fluff writing has all the subtlety of a thrown brick, and even the brick has a better grasp of what is acceptable and what is too ott even for 40k.

I really dont get the Necron/BA truce hate.

I just wont make sense to club eacht other to death while a foe waits to wipe out the victor.

All three of the current codex writers are bad, but Ward's fluff is so hyperbolic and unabashedly fanboyish that he gets the ire. GW is bad at balance, and they are bad at controlling creep, and they have a pants-on-head slowed expectation that a codex written 2 editions ago will work fine with a new ruleset.

There is no reason what so ever why there are only a couple dudes currently writing codecies, or why they don't have playtests, or why they don't upgrade every faction every edition. If I am paying $40 bucks for box containing 3oz. of plastic at most (multiple times no less), I expect a team of competent writers who are divided, with one team of game devs writing mechanics and one team of excellent proven creative writers, and I expect both to have the ability to keep their own fandom in check and a deep respect for existing canon.

WotC can do it (mostly), why can't GW.

Ward’s bad reputation comes way before Draigo and GK. It goes back as far as Warhammer 7th Ed Orcs and the current SM book. It was generally thought that Ward made Orcs under powered because he did not like them. His rep did not improve when he made daemons the wrecking ball of fantasy 7th. A lot of people left fantasy when daemons came out, because of how over powered they were compared to the rest of the books. It is not just his story writing that a lot of people hate it is the fact that he goes above and beyond to make his books the over powered compared to previous books. When daemons came out he admitted that he did certain things in the rules to be able to beat Gav Thorps recent Dark Elf book. To a lot of people he had a bad influence on fantasy that continues to this day. This feeling continued in the 40k arena as he started to write more books, each one being a little more over the top than the last. It was felt that he added things to the SM that was not necessary, such as stern guard, and making scouts BS 3. It was also the general feeling in the community that it ended up being an Ultra Marine codex and not a Space Marine codex. A lot of people did not like the change in feel that came with the SM codex. Up until that point 40K was becoming more balanced with codex like Eldar, CSM, DA, and Orks. Ward disrupted this balance with SM and it was not well received in some circles. Since the release of SM, with a few exceptions (DE, and tyranids) there is defiantly the feeling that each new codex is trying to overpower the last. Now Ward is not the only culprit of this, Kelly had SW, and that other guy had IG, but Ward’s books have been the extreme of this practice SM, BA, and GK. Now there has always been the tendency for GW to have the “codex creep” as editions go on, however Ward’s books (except 7th Orcs) don’t creep the rocket to the next level strapped to a jet. I have been playing this game for a long time and there have always been gripes when a new codex comes out, however no one else has created so much controversy within the community. Not until Ward had a single author created so much stir with his style and rules. Both Gav Thorp and Allisio Calvator had their moments, but they never spawned pages and pages of debate or so many shouting matches at the local store. It is very evident in his books that Ward likes change, be it to fluff or to rules. There are people that like Ward’s work and some who don’t, but no matter how you look at it his influence on the game has had a changing effect and it has turned some people off, and brought others in. Whether you like the change or not everyone have to admit Matt Ward is the most controversial writer in GW history.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote: Lots'o'text

I'm sure that's all jolly good, but if there's "Codex creep", how come that Imperial Guard and Orks still win many major tournaments? How come that Space Wolves are still considered among the best armies in the game power-wise?

I have not been completely up to date with W40K since about 2005 (As in haven't brought anything, read any new codexes etc) so i may not have the full picture. But from what i have seen, i don't like the changes he makes.

I have no idea about his rules so i'll just comment on the fluff i have heard mentioned the most. Some of what i have read was pretty poorly written really, and read like a fanfic. A few of the changes seemed pretty bad at first, but they actually make some sense.

For example:
- Everyone wanting to be like the Ultramarines
- Necrons and Blood Angels teaming up
- GK killing Sisters and painting their armour with their blood

Those make some sense really. It's different then what we were used to, but it's not completely out of the question. That doesn't mean it was the right thing to do though.

But then pretty much the rest of what i have seen, particularly the Grey Knights, seems quite bad. I don't hate him as such, but my opinion of him is that he is not the best person to be writting codexes.

:Everyone wanting to be like the Ultramarines :

Never happened. Everyone looks up to them as an ideal force, because they most closely follow the Codex. You know, the book theyre supposed to adhere to and revere? Try reading the actual fluff, not someones badly misinterpreted garbage

"Necrons and Blood Angels teaming up "

No, they decided to fight a common foe, and if youd read the necron fluff (record, broken...) you would see how this could work.

"GK killing Sisters and painting their armour with their blood "

When GW dont respect and almost revere RT / 2nd ed, people complain. When they include a piece of fluff EXACTLY LIKE the GK original fluff, they get hated on.

Dark Scipio wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:As much as a few people rag on Kelly for SW's suppossedly being this unbeatable 'uber force... HE didn't kill an entire freaking game system!!! ("because THEY'RE DAEMONS!!1!11!!1!!!!")
Of course, Ward then went on to utterly kill off Codex: Daemons by introducing that farce of a GK codex... As a Daemon player, it's sad a day when the only game I can get at the local store is against the circle of 9 year olds who run the black reach set.
Honestly, the only people I've met who rave about Ward's books as being this blissful utopia of well-balanced rules are those who play BA's/GK's/SM's in some of their most abusive forms... (ironic that - no?!)

Considering it's been 8 months since the grey knight book came out, the fact that it's still so widely hated does imply it's pretty badly balanced externally. SW's have always been hated no matter what edition is being played, and it's cool to hate on Eldar because they're so specialised.
Grey Knights though is easily the closest we've come to the broken'ness of 2nd ed Harlequins! (ie: the *entire* game-meta has shifted to combat 1 specific army!)

The other big reason people hate-on Ward; he never owns up to his (perceived or real) mistakes. He just offers some fanboy'ish excuse about why some books turned out the way they did.
Kelly has at least admitted that SW's aren't his best work and if he could, there's changes he would go back and make.

The codex Deamons:
- Was always a bad idea. It didnt fit into the fluff well and was only there to generate extra money.
- Was never really good, so Ward hardly runied it.
- Is the very thing you expect rightfully of Codex Grey Knights, that they totally rock against Deamons.

My daemons would like to argue with you, thanks very much. In fact, they ruled the roost in my local tournaments for a while, and wrecked in friendly play. I happen to love having two separate chaos codexes too. But I haven't played my daemons since GKs came out. Warpquake is ridiculous. If daemons got special rules put into the GK codex and warpquake went away, the book would be much better. But don't hate on the daemon codex. It takes skill to use, but it's a damn good one. There is no cookie-cutter list for them, as it should be. Maybe if people thought for themselves and didn't run every list the Internet told them to, the game would improve tenfold. /rant

For a few reasons I feel bad for the nids. I mean they come out ata time with stuff like DL spam, entire armies armed with force weapons, MC hunters in the SW, long fangs, etc etc. I'd say the only army thats hurt by the circumstances are the nids. That and the fluff is very devastating to the readers poor minds. An art collecting necron? Really? That and they made deals with the blood angels.. Idk the fluff to me is very odd. Guve the Necrons a shiny spoon and theyll be your allies since somehow the Ctan aka Star Gods were defeated.

The thing that angers me about ward is his disregard for past fluff. And his ultramarines fanboyism, and yes i did read csm, and might as well be called codex ultramarines. The grey knights where just over the top and made no sense. There IMMUNE to chaos, but need to use the sisters blood to not be corrupted. A man staying in the warp, alive and uncorrupted. It read like a fanfic written by a 12 year old who thinks marines are just the coolest ever.

I would complain about the crons but i dont.think he wrote it.

timetowaste85 wrote:There is no cookie-cutter list for them, as it should be. Maybe if people thought for themselves and didn't run every list the Internet told them to, the game would improve tenfold. /rant

Fatecrusher?

Decent fluff + decent rules + one or two horrible bits of fluff = Matt Ward = entire fandom SCREAM RAGE.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The thing that angers me about ward is his disregard for past fluff.

Ward disregards past fluff? I guess you failed to notice Cruddace heavy-handed, simple-minded ret-con of the Hive War fluff to shove his Swarmy creation up the rectum of 40K fluff, not to mention Kelly's leaky-soul-emo-travesty he bestowed upon the Dark Eldar or Wolf-riders and womanizing Space Wolves and all that.

If there is one author among the current three that apparently even knows the past fluff, it is Ward. The other two most certainly have proven time and time and time again that they are utterly and perfectly ignorant of everything ever written for 40K before them.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The grey knights where just over the top and made no sense. They're IMMUNE to chaos, but need to use the sisters blood to not be corrupted.

We've been over this one a few bajillion times. Here goes again though:
They are immune to the temptations of Chaos. That does not mean that they cannot be "corrupted" by Chaos fueled powers. If a Grey Knight is targeted by a Nurgle Daemon, it could feasibly overwhelm his defenses and corrupt him using daemonic plagues.

A man staying in the warp, alive and uncorrupted.

You're aware that the Eye of Terror has people living within it, and it's a spillover of The Warp into the real world?

Haters gonna hate.

new GK=

xxmatt85 wrote:Haters gonna hate.

Fans gonna fanboi.
or is it Fanboys gonna fan?

Seriously, "haters gonna hate" is not a legitimate argument

I like and have played gk a long time but I think the new fluff is terrible lol. As to the incorruptible etc etc.. read the book Hammer of Daemons.. Alric had all sorts of issues with possession, corruption etc. I prefer the old gk fluff even though it was a bit silly. "You saw a gk! You must be mind scrubbed or die!" Plus I can see why they expanded the vehicle selection BUT it's funny that the knights decded to lower themselves to ride in rhino that arent even speacial like the BA. Same stats as a vanilla.. oh well fluff and table top will never match lol

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:There is no cookie-cutter list for them, as it should be. Maybe if people thought for themselves and didn't run every list the Internet told them to, the game would improve tenfold. /rant

Fatecrusher?

Common, but hardly the answer to everything. I've won more games without fateweaver than with him. It's even argued that fiends are better. Me? I love flamers-mine have been banned by my friends-fateweaver has yet to be banned. He can die in one shot to a las pistol. I've had it happen twice. And if he dies, the fatecrusher list is in trouble. Resting a full army's survival on one model who can die to one single wound is asinine.

templarsandorks? wrote:new GK=

IG =
SW =

Zweischneid wrote:

templarsandorks? wrote:new GK=

IG =
SW =

Totally agree with you. But you know what other cheese SW were designed to slaughter? Hint, it's in half their mock images in the book, built the possibility for 4 HQs and is Matt Damon's favorite army. and yes, they were cheesey before the wolves.

TiB wrote:I just still don't understand why a multi-million dollar company like GW lets it's codices be written by one guy where other, much smaller companies would put an entire design team on there, followed by a good round of R&D.

Matt Ward is, in my opinion, a competent rules designer. But rules writing and fluff writing have nothing in common with each other apart from being comprised of the same alphabet.

If they'd just have a pool of designers to tackle the rules, mr. Ward among them, and have another team, for example Abnett and peers, handle the fluff things would be a lot better.

Because GW is Cheap.

As for Ward and his collective works? Just look at all of the crap that gets thrown in at You make the Call around his so called "creative works".

His fluff is bad.

His game mechanics are bad.

Proofreading and grammar checking? Mostly non-existent.

Hypocrisy, thy name is hater.

And Ignorance is Strength! A quote from the book 1984.

guiltl3ss wrote:So it sounds like the people who don't like accuse him of writing like a child and the people who do like him think he is very good. Interesting. As an English Major, I don't find his work terrible in the least. Certainly better written than adult-level novels and the like. Granted it's not amazing either. Very interesting to see both sides. Thanks for all the points, everyone. It's given me a great deal to think about.

I've have IP's. When I choose to create I have a illustration team, a writing team and a professional technical writer with 20 years of experience to go over what the writing team messed up. It does not take that much fricken money to do this!

Okay lets say that Ward is not the AntiChrist of Warhammer. Let us say he is being ordered (by those peanut counters as well as marketing) to design product which includes codex creep designed in order for people to buy the product for the next "super duper monster combo" (sounds like magic the gathering on plastic to me) army until the next codex. And Then tell the designer to proof read his own work?

Then it becomes GW's fault.

However once you put your name on that product as the head designer for that product you will get all of the credit and all of the blame.

Ward has his name on the codex. He will take the heat or the praise of the codex and those people in marketing will simply smile as they know they can do whatever they want to a point.

That is how GW does business.


I have one important question? How many people have Met Matt Ward in person?

I'm now curious to see what they think of him and compare notes.

nosferatu1001 wrote::Everyone wanting to be like the Ultramarines :

Never happened. Everyone looks up to them as an ideal force, because they most closely follow the Codex. You know, the book theyre supposed to adhere to and revere? Try reading the actual fluff, not someones badly misinterpreted garbage

"Necrons and Blood Angels teaming up "

No, they decided to fight a common foe, and if youd read the necron fluff (record, broken...) you would see how this could work.

"GK killing Sisters and painting their armour with their blood "

When GW dont respect and almost revere RT / 2nd ed, people complain. When they include a piece of fluff EXACTLY LIKE the GK original fluff, they get hated on.

Not sure if you are directing those at me, but i agree with you. Those were just some 'hate' points i've seen, and even without fully reading the fluff i see they aren't as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

How is the killing sisters like the original GK fluff though?