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dnanoodle wrote:
6) Wraithlord in CC - The worst option in my opinion because he will be IDed by Halberds before he swings but for completeness' sake Im including him.

I thought haliberds were STR 4. Are they not? STR 4 cannot wound T8.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:And I wasn't kidding about ramming the tanks. The best way for Eldar to kill a psyfleman dread is to ram a wave serpent or falcon into it at full speed. If you can nail it in the back that's bonus, but it only has str6 so its DoG attack will do nothing, and if you can get the 21" draw on it, you're guaranteed a str10 hit with no rolling against the crappy Eldar BS3. You might lose a tank or two, but if you've taken out his paladins and psyflemen, he's probably not got much left.

And then it shoots you with an autocannon buffed to S8 thanks to psybolt ammunition. I'm not debating that tank shocking can be an awesome way to kill stuff, but ramming head-first into a psyfleman that can shoot you is kinda dangerous.

It was going to shoot you with that autocannon anyway whether you rammed it or not. Ramming is a way to get an automatic str10 hit on the dreadnought without sacrificing your cover save by slowing down to shoot/disembark.

I should qualify and emphasize that it's better to ram it in the back (where it takes an auto-pen but you only take str8) and that a tank with a holofield is better at this than a wave serpent, because the holofield works against the hit that you take. So in the ideal result, your tank would be unharmed or shaken, and the dread would be destroyed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

labmouse42 wrote:

dnanoodle wrote:
6) Wraithlord in CC - The worst option in my opinion because he will be IDed by Halberds before he swings but for completeness' sake Im including him.

I thought haliberds were STR 4. Are they not? STR 4 cannot wound T8.

With hammerhand, they're str5 (daemonhammers str10). With hammerhand and might of Titan (they stack) they're str 6. So if either psychic power goes off, or both, they'll wound a wraithlord on a 6.

Also they're all force weapons, so one successful wound plus a psych test (or automatic if the unit has a brotherhood banner) means the wraithlord is dead.

This is very interesting read. The best solution i've found so far is 3x10 FD units. Anything else isn't even glancing the Paladins.

Accordingly to Heresy Combat Calc, a minimum of 24 FD can get the job done. This includes both Doom and Guide.

Shooting

Fire Dragon vs Paladin

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Fire Dragon
Shots: 24
Hit Chance: 88.89%
Hits: 21.333
Wound Chance: 97.22%
Wounds: 20.741
Saved Wounds: 10.37
Unsaved Wounds: 20.741
Models Killed: 10.37
Options: Reroll Hit, Reroll Wound, Ignore Armour, Instakill

-----------------------------

Defenders

Paladin
Hits: 21.333
Wounds: 20.741
Saves: 10.37
Wounds Lost: 20.741
Models Lost: 10.37 / 10 (103.7%)


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

Note that this is the absolute MINIMUM to kill off this unit in one turn. Furthermore, it doesn't include Draigo as part of the unit. With him, the odds are even worse.
- ALSO note, that this unit is 160 pts per unit of FD. This doesn't include the WS transports. With WSes, we're looking at a minimum of 260 pts per unit of 10-FD.

I've been running alot (ALOT) of numbers against this full Paladin unit. And every extreme i tried failed. The only solution i came up with (besides the Tank Shocking) was going all-out on the Dragons.
- So basically, to take out the Paladins, you either run 3x10 FD at 780 points with Farseer/Eldrad support, that brings us close to 1000 pts. JUST to be able to deal with this ONE unit.
- Alternatively, you can take your usual skimmer-massed Mech-list, go with your small odds of getting off the Tank Shock, as Flavious suggested, and not having to spend around 1000 pts to defend against a SINGLE unit.

Well... ymmv

EDIT:

dnanoodle wrote:Then there's the issue of how I like to play with my friends and I don't think either of us would have fun if I just push his whole army off the board. I'm not criticizing your gaming environment, but I want you to see why I wanted to get people's impressions on ways to shoot them down.

I just found this kinda ironic. He/they can run full Paladin Deathstar units, thats fair. But you can't allow yourself to utilize your own best option against them. Well, where's the fun in that?

Flavius Infernus wrote:With hammerhand, they're str5 (daemonhammers str10). With hammerhand and might of Titan (they stack) they're str 6.

With Runes of Warding, Hammerhand becomes a risky proposition. This is more true for the GK squads with a 9 leadership. They have almost the same chance of peril's as succeeding.

Billinator wrote:This is very interesting read. The best solution i've found so far is 3x10 FD units. Anything else isn't even glancing the Paladins.

Accordingly to Heresy Combat Calc, a minimum of 24 FD can get the job done. This includes both Doom and Guide.

Shooting

Fire Dragon vs Paladin

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Fire Dragon
Shots: 24
Hit Chance: 88.89%
Hits: 21.333
Wound Chance: 97.22%
Wounds: 20.741
Saved Wounds: 10.37
Unsaved Wounds: 20.741
Models Killed: 10.37
Options: Reroll Hit, Reroll Wound, Ignore Armour, Instakill

-----------------------------

Defenders

Paladin
Hits: 21.333
Wounds: 20.741
Saves: 10.37
Wounds Lost: 20.741
Models Lost: 10.37 / 10 (103.7%)


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

Note that this is the absolute MINIMUM to kill off this unit in one turn. Furthermore, it doesn't include Draigo as part of the unit. With him, the odds are even worse.
- ALSO note, that this unit is 160 pts per unit of FD. This doesn't include the WS transports. With WSes, we're looking at a minimum of 260 pts per unit of 10-FD.

I've been running alot (ALOT) of numbers against this full Paladin unit. And every extreme i tried failed. The only solution i came up with (besides the Tank Shocking) was going all-out on the Dragons.
- So basically, to take out the Paladins, you either run 3x10 FD at 780 points with Farseer/Eldrad support, that brings us close to 1000 pts. JUST to be able to deal with this ONE unit.
- Alternatively, you can take your usual skimmer-massed Mech-list, go with your small odds of getting off the Tank Shock, as Flavious suggested, and not having to spend around 1000 pts to defend against a SINGLE unit.

Well... ymmv

EDIT:

dnanoodle wrote:Then there's the issue of how I like to play with my friends and I don't think either of us would have fun if I just push his whole army off the board. I'm not criticizing your gaming environment, but I want you to see why I wanted to get people's impressions on ways to shoot them down.

I just found this kinda ironic. He/they can run full Paladin Deathstar units, thats fair. But you can't allow yourself to utilize your own best option against them. Well, where's the fun in that?

I guess its a good thing its only Dragio that has EW, so what you have done there is actually killed 20 Paladins...Also, the absolute minimum of FDs needed get 20 wounds on the Paladins is not 24, its 20. Those calcs are showing the average output of 24 FDs...

That said, 10 extra FDs are 160pts, thats very close to what a normal DAVU serpent costs, Id rather have the extra DAVU serpent in an allcommers list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

labmouse42 wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:With hammerhand, they're str5 (daemonhammers str10). With hammerhand and might of Titan (they stack) they're str 6.

With Runes of Warding, Hammerhand becomes a risky proposition. This is more true for the GK squads with a 9 leadership. They have almost the same chance of peril's as succeeding.

Still beats being slowly eaten by a WL tho...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nm I see what you did in your calcs now. Missed the part where you included a 4+ cover save...

Labmouse
To be honest I forgot about the S issue against the WL. The GKs have to pass 2 tests minimum (Hammerhand/MoT and Force Weapons) to kill it. Far from guaranteed with Runes of Warding. But its much better for the GK player than losing bodies to each WL attack.

Billinator
I admi that it's arbitrary preference on my part. Banking on tank shocks to save the day doesn't do it for me. I like the idea of waging hella war on 10 guys that make up almost the entire enemy army. They're slogging through blasts, bullets and bloody bodacious balls of fire like Necrons only wish they could. I think that's pretty awesome and suiting of how cool GKs are supposed to be.

The numbers on Dragons are excellent! Thanks for posting those. That's enough to kill a unit of 10 in one turn. So assuming 4 Psycannons that's a minimum of 630 points right? And most people take some MCing and others take a banner or apothecary too. We will have leveraged our whole army against a portion of theirs...isn't that what we do anyway?

I'm not saying I advocate 3x10 dragons in serpents but I don't think the return on it is unreasonable. You'd likely be killing a Librarian too (200pts) and leaving Draigo all alone to be hosed the next turn (275pts). That looks a lot more even to me.

It also occurs to me that we don't have to kill all 10 in one turn and may only be killing an isolated 5man which would be much easier.

Flavius Infernus wrote:4. A bright lance is a single-shot weapon. If it hits and wounds, the GK player just allocates it to Draigo for a 3+ save. If he fails, he takes one wound because of eternal warrior.

You are right, Draigo is in every list and every unit in those lists

I really think this post has gotten some serious mileage and has stimulated some great ideas and thinking. I just want to say thanks to the original poster for the question and thanks to all the posters, it has been enlightening.

A good way to hurt termies is wreck their rides. Make them take as many saves as you can. Stay out of cc with them. Tank shock can work but depending on the game type may not be as worthwhile. In some cases if there is cover and its an objective you can hide till turn 4 or 5 and move all out to just use your serpents etc to contest their objective while holding your own. Then forcing their limited shooting to destroy multiple vehicles with a 3+ cover save. So really its a matter of game type and what you are fielding.

I gotta admit I'm very impressed with using Tank Shocking to send off the Paladins. There were two Grey Knight players today that used full squads of Paladins. I did as suggested and sent them packing. First I cleared out the chaff and then tank shocked the squad until it ran away, then escorted it off the table just as suggested.

There were some scary moments like when the Grey Knights actually killed one of the Wave Serpents but they couldn't touch the Falcons and Fire Prisms with Holo Fields. I was very impressed with how effective it can be. I will have to remember that for other units as well.

I realize now that I left out BL Falcons. A guided one could pick away at Paladins each turn and have a good chance to do meaningful damage. Dragons could then finish the unit. I'll probably get a chance to try this next month.

I used 9 Dragons on Saturday to lay out a unit of 4 Paladins on their own. They shouldn't have been caught out of cover, but it does happen sometimes. Objective placement can help it happen more often than the GK player wants too.

Plus hover tanks can move over troops to tank shock so they can't hide them

Units can also be tank shocked to force the bulk of the squad out of area terrain

9 Fire dragons with guide from a farseer=8 hits=6&2/3 wounds=4.5 dead paladins=3.5 dead paladins+ 1 save on Draigo or 4.5 out of 5 paladins dead if shooting at a combat squad.

Shoot them near the max range of fire dragons. Then tank shock again to push them >12" from the fire dragons.

Everything Eldar does is 2nd rate to IG Marbo + demo charge + PBS dropping leadership down to 2 shenanigans.

The Draigo deathstar is actually about 1k instead of 800. The base cost is 550+275=825 with no upgrades then up to 900 with FNP and no other upgrades.

Hey so i didnt read the entire thread so i have no idea if anyone posted it but when draigo joins a unit of paladins he makes them fearless. You will not be able to tank shock them off the board as fearless states "a unit that is fearless automatically passed any morale check it is required to make and will never fall back" so you will not be able to run draigo and his 1k unit of paladins off the board, sorry. BUT!!! lacking draigo, id certainly try it

My best way of dealing with it? fire prism small blast, brightlances, and up close fire dragons. lastly if you can manage it throw every other shot in your army at it. finally assault with banshees and a seer council if you have it., (i have done this and wiped a paladin unit and stern in two turns quite literally) though in that match up stern got lucky with his psychic power and killed over half my close combat guys (take a strength test or die :( ) but anyway you look at it, fire any and all str8 weapons first esp those that ignore armor saves, then shoot with everything else, lastly assaulyt with effective units (ie not scorpions) it will take your entire army to kill one squad, believe me i know.

No, Draigo does not make Pallies Fearless.

A fearless IC that joins a non-fearless unit loses fearless.

That is all.

Oh yeah i see now, under fearless, my bad. Tank shock those buggers off the board then! lol

zcantin wrote:What is the best way? The only things Ive found are SL'ing the crap out of the unit with only medicore results, or wasting a fire prism blast on them. Would Banshees or some other foot unit be able to do this better (i doubt so)? Would taking doom on a farseer be worth it?

Take 2 Fire Prisms. Drop 2 STR 9 AP 2 small templates on those pesky GK terminator Squads, and as for everything with a 3+ Save, you get to combine the 2 beams (they become twin-linked as well) to drop a STR 6 AP 3 large blast on those troops. Even better, take 3 Fire Prisms to get both the combined large and still have 1 firing the STR 9 AP 2 blast. This gives you tactical flexibility to take care of them, not to mention, possibly 3 STR 9 AP 2 templates to be dropped at random per turn will force a WAAC GK player to panic.

Who says Eldar are restrictive?