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Battle Foam wrote:Email more than one time or use any of the mediums we are on.

I stress again that nobody has PMed me, or Kyle about any of these problems. Nobody on here has bothered to send more than one email, nobody on here felt that their problem was big enough to dial a few numbers on a phone.

I agree with the the rest of your post, actually. I'm content to chill til my confirmation of shipping email shows up. I'm gonna stop reading this ridiculous circus thread and stop checking that order status page. Bad for my blood pressure anyway.

Edit: Not here to fling around logic-based arguments. I did send more than one email, but whatever, that's not really the point. I have my answers.

Maybe you typed the email address incorrectly? Email uses a udp protocol so no email is garanteed to go through. So there is no correct number, but that is the reason you can't be given final notices for anything via email.

Edit: Which email address did you mail it to? This may be an easy mystery to solve by this one question.

@Battlefoam:
While I'll contend your post suggests some good points in direction to take reaching a response in customer services... the post itself is rather interesting. I personally would expect more in customer service from the person posting under "battlefoam."

The post is quite the finger pointing at consumers for them to take responsibility. As a provider it is also your responsibility to meet supply and demand if you are going to take consumers money. Otherwise, it takes simple disclaimers around holiday / high peak time to make consumers realize their orders may take 3 weeks.

If you want business, I'd suggest to review your post and think about it how a consumer would feel getting pegged by that mini attack and fling against your competition. Things you should offer your consumers

1. A quality product, seems like you do.
2. Accurate communication, likely not. i've read several posts over the years where communication is a problem for your company. perhaps you should look into it, maybe there are things that could have gone differently. this is a way to make your company grow and ensure return consumers. that's a win / win proposal.
3. Be professional. You response was in no way professional. It comes across as an attack on a consumers. Is that how to handle something?

I've played this game a while. Mikhaila himself spend 15 minutes at his last event singing your products praises. I spoke with people who had the product they seemed happy, but several people cited "if its not in stock at store you goto prepare to wait." My wife was going to buy it for me on my birthday, likely from Mike. To be honest, if its not in stock with him, i'm not ordering. I tend not to support those who are not professional as a consumer, its just my way.

NAVARRO wrote:

Battle Foam wrote:
Ya it would be easier to sell cardboard boxes with cute blue foam, or standard plastic tool cases. These would be easier to make, sell, and ship. Yes that would be the easier way to do business.

Unnecessary jabs if your comfortable on your shoes

Indeed, and one more reason not to buy BF.

runmymouth wrote:Maybe you typed the email address incorrectly? Email uses a udp protocol so no email is garanteed to go through. So there is no correct number, but that is the reason you can't be given final notices for anything via email.

Edit: Which email address did you mail it to? This may be an easy mystery to solve by this one question.

I came back to redact my previous post, I wasn't really coming to the thread to pick apart the Battlefoam guy's arguments, because quite honestly I have a lot of respect for the people who manage to make a living in the weird gaming industry. However, since you're asking I'm guessing you maybe work for them? In any event I sent the same email twice, once to info@battlefoam.com, the other to kiran@battlefoam.com (thus two emails, which sorta made me prickly having been accused of "only sending one"). I found the second email address on Twitter, it had been supplied to another customer saying they were having difficulty getting a response from the main email address. My thought was "unless they're in the habit of wanton deletion, there's no polite reason to spam one address with the same question over and over."

However, I don't think "I didn't get that email" is an altogether reliable response. That's the "the check is in the mail" for 2011. Email is pretty darn reliable. The info@battlefoam address has always worked for me in the past, since I asked a couple of questions about my case before submitting my final designs.

Nope don't work for them. That would be the address I would use the info@battlefoam.com so who knows what happened. Not sure of the twitter email address as I have never used that one. I know that if I wasn't getting answers after emailing a few times I would give any vendor a call. That is just me though.

Romeo has a proven history of bad mouthing his competition and having a rather short temper. The outrider/Foam Corps situation shows that rather well. His posts on this forum have been called into question before as well. And now we have this current post as further evidence. It really doesn't matter if it is Romeo or not posting this time. It's under his companies name so it reflects directly on him regardless. Good product or not, I refuse to purchase Battlefoam as I refuse to support bullies. One of the reasons I don't buy GW anymore either. Although, in GW's defense, I do not recall them attacking any of their customers before, verbal or otherwise.

I stress again that nobody has PMed me, or Kyle about any of these problems. Nobody on here has bothered to send more than one email, nobody on here felt that their problem was big enough to dial a few numbers on a phone.

If email is not a reliable way to contact you, then you need to take it off of your site. Telling people that they need to email you twice or try a different method to get a response as a matter of course is frankly unprofessional. You should be pretty embarrassed about this. If you list a way to contact you, that way to contact you should work, full stop.

So lets back it down a bit and put things into perspective. We work close to 70 hours per week with our team combines. It would take an act of god to keep customers from getting answers if they actually tried.

"if they actually tried"
You need to stop putting this on the customer. You published your email address, something was sent to it and you didn't respond. That's on you. Do not pretend that it's anyone's fault but yours. Be contrite, apologize and promise you'll do what you can to stop that from happening in the future. Asking customers to try harder to contact you is not how business is done.

I applaud you for responding in this thread, but your responses have been more than a little prickly and definitely rub me the wrong way. Judging only from how you are posting here, I am not terribly impressed with your customer interaction.

Well lets try an experiment, I had bad support on the phone so attempting email, maybe this can get foam up higher on my priority list. I really want to replace my foam and the locals highly recommended battle foam but I had a poor customer service experience. So to take as neutral stand point as possible I will address this scientifically. I will post all correspondence good bad or indifferent so that. I will also include a control group, my Local Hobby Store, as they sell battle foam products I will make the same inquires there.

An email was just sent I will update correspondence here:

from Bex <My email address hidden>
to info@battlefoam.com
date Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 12:35 PM
subject Inquiry about battle foam
mailed-by gmail.com


Hello,
Battle foam came to me as a recommended product to help me transport my army. Local people told me it would work with my current case. I currently have http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440149a&prodId=prod1095468 when I previously called customer support I was told you did not make foam that would fit the GW cases. I was wondering the following:

Will the GW foam actually fit the GW cases? (http://us.battlefoam.com/products/%28Custom%29-Custom-GW%7B47%7DShield-Bag-Foam-Tray-%28GW%29.html)
Are you aware of how many inches of foam that case will hold?
Are your toppers softer than the normal foam? (http://us.battlefoam.com/products/%28Topper%29-5-Foam-Toppers-Kit-for-GW%7B47%7DShield-Bag-%28GW%29.html)
With the custom topper can I span it across 2 toppers or is there a margin? (yes I understand I would have to buy both http://us.battlefoam.com/products/%28Topper%29-5-Foam-Toppers-Kit-for-GW%7B47%7DShield-Bag-%28GW%29.html)

Look forward to hearing from you.

Bex

from Romeo <Name and email hidden>
reply-to romeo<Name hidden>
to <My email hidden>
date Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 1:32 PM
subject Battle Foam Questions

Hello <Bex>,



Your emails and dakka posts have been forwarded to me for assistance. I have also been made aware that the GW foam questions have been answered via PM on the dakka dakka forum. This should take care of the questions you have up to this point.



I am also reaching out to let you know that you can contact me directly if you feel that any of our customer service people are not helping. By simply PMing the Battle Foam account on dakka and adding attention “Romeo” or by doing the same in any of your emails to us.



This will ensure I will get these and help directly. You can also reach me via our 40k Radio email that I have replied with from here. Both are direct ways of getting in contact with me personally if our people have missed you.



Look forward to helping you further.





Romeo <Name hidden>

Battle Foam LLC/LTD.

<Phone number hidden>

<phone number hidden>

Skype Name - BATTLEFOAMLLC

Www.Battlefoam.Com

This answers my question, I consider this fair answers to each, with great response time.
---
An private message was sent to user "Battle Foam" I will update correspondence here:

(12/27/2011 12:58 PM)
Hello,
Battle foam came to me as a recommended product to help me transport my army. Local people told me it would work with my current case. I currently have http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440149a&prodId=prod1095468 when I previously called customer support I was told you did not make foam that would fit the GW cases. I was wondering the following:

Will the GW foam actually fit the GW cases? (http://us.battlefoam.com/products/%28Custom%29-Custom-GW%7B47%7DShield-Bag-Foam-Tray-%28GW%29.html)
Are you aware of how many inches of foam that case will hold?
Are your toppers softer than the normal foam? (http://us.battlefoam.com/products/%28Topper%29-5-Foam-Toppers-Kit-for-GW%7B47%7DShield-Bag-%28GW%29.html)
With the custom topper can I span it across 2 toppers or is there a margin? (yes I understand I would have to buy both http://us.battlefoam.com/products/%28Topper%29-5-Foam-Toppers-Kit-for-GW%7B47%7DShield-Bag-%28GW%29.html)

Look forward to hearing from you.

Bex

Inbox :: Message
From: Battle Foam
To: Bex
Date: 2011/12/27 13:25:21
Subject: Re:Question about battlefoam
Hello Bex,

I think the problem came up when the question was originally asked via telephone. The young lady understood that you wanted Battle Foam to fit inside a GW case. To us at Battle Foam when a customer asks for Battle Foam we automaticly think 15.5 x 12 size Battle Foam trays. These do not fit inside a standard GW case.

On the other hand we do make GW size foam that fits the GW size case. We do call those GW foam trays so internally it goes by that specific name. I think what happened is the young lady understood that you wanted Battle Foam, not GW sized Battle Foam. Sounds odd but that is how I think the mistake happened.

To answer your question is actually really easy.

Yes, we do make GW foam that will fit their cases.

From what I know the GW hard case will hold 5" of foam. This is based on the 3 x 1.5" trays they supply plus a .5" topper. This would total out to 5" but I have heard people fit 5.5" with a bit of squeez. Our trays are built a bit different. GW has a .5" bottom on all of their foam. We have a .25" bottom so you will get a bit more room with our style of foam.

An example would be this. A Battle Foam GW style tray for troops in 1" would total out to 1.25" of space used up in the case. Understanding that we have about 5.5" to work with you would get 4 of these trays plus leave room for the topper.

Yes, you can get a topper that is the full size of the large case but it will be a bit extra as you pointed out. Also, the toppers are made of the same foam as the rest of the trays to ensure the colors match. The foam however is a bit softer to the touch since its only .25" thick.

Hope this helps and please call or email us with any questions.

Thanks for the order

Battle Foam Custom Cut Foam Trays and Carrying Cases. WWW.BATTLEFOAM.COM Serving the world from our two locations in the US and UK.

This answers my question, I consider this fair answers to each, with great response time.
---
Question asked to local gaming store I will update correspondence here:

(12/27/2011)
Will the foam from the shield bag fit in my side by side?
How many inches will the side by side hold?
Are their toppers softer than their normal foam??
With the custom topper can I span it across 2 toppers or is there a margin?

Procedures:
*I will check my email/private messages daily but will include timestamps for fairness sake.
*I will visit my Local Hobby Store once a week at minimum 4 times a week at maximum.
*I will hide my email address and real name if it comes up.
*My name will be replaced by "Bex"
*My email will be replaced by <My email address hidden>
*Time stamps on my sent private messages will be approximate as I can't see them and be listed as follows for example: (12/27/2011 12:58 PM)
*I will continue updating this until all 4 questions are answered and any followup questions that it spawns are answered.

Conclusions: I think maybe this thread has shed some light to them and they are focusing a little better on customer contact, some things may take time such as the people saying about the status on the website, but it has managed to change my perception some. Take it for what you will... discarding control group as all test subjects took less than 24 hour to respond.

Horst wrote:Its not a contract of service, do not treat it as such. It is an estimated time frame. They are simply not meeting your (in my opinion unreasonable ) demands.

And if you find me another company who can custom cut foam as well, I will acknowledge it as equal.

Well, you see there again lies the problem with your logic. My "unreasonable" demands are only based on what the seller has informed the public they should expect for product turn-around. Nobody (as far as I can see) is forcing Battlefoam to work to 4 weeks, they could just as easily select 6, 8, or even 10. So how can you call my expectations unreasonable when they are based on the "experts" own opinion.

Regarding product quality, I do believe it's matter of personal opinion. Whether you acknowledge any other company to be as great as Battlefoam or not is really no skin off my nose, you spends your money, you takes your choice. My suggestion was for the financial health of your wallet, and because you seemed blinkered to the fact that you can really get an equal service elsewhere for a lot less money (and it seems, stress!).

Delephont wrote:

Horst wrote:Its not a contract of service, do not treat it as such. It is an estimated time frame. They are simply not meeting your (in my opinion unreasonable ) demands.

And if you find me another company who can custom cut foam as well, I will acknowledge it as equal.

Well, you see there again lies the problem with your logic. My "unreasonable" demands are only based on what the seller has informed the public they should expect for product turn-around. Nobody (as far as I can see) is forcing Battlefoam to work to 4 weeks, they could just as easily select 6, 8, or even 10. So how can you call my expectations unreasonable when they are based on the "experts" own opinion.

Regarding product quality, I do believe it's matter of personal opinion. Whether you acknowledge any other company to be as great as Battlefoam or not is really no skin off my nose, you spends your money, you takes your choice. My suggestion was for the financial health of your wallet, and because you seemed blinkered to the fact that you can really get an equal service elsewhere for a lot less money (and it seems, stress!).

What product would you say is comparable or superior? I am always looking for what suits my purposes best.

In interest of full disclosure:
I am an Admin (in charge of advertisers) on Bartertown and BattleFoam advertises on our site.

That said, I don't think anyone who knows me will believe I'd say anything here I didn't fully believe.

Positives:
Those of you calling Romeo a bully really need to take a closer look, IMO. The "Old" Romeo (when he was called, I believe, "Captain Diablo" on here) was quite... fiery. LOL I think even Romeo will admit his short temper.
I don't see that same Romeo anymore. I do see someone who is direct and straight-forward and says exactly what he thinks, regardless how PC or touchy-feely is is (or isn't). Maybe someone publicly representing the company [i]shouldn't[/] be like that. I think that is a personal decision for each of us. Myself, I like his direct, candid demeanor.
He's been called out for his comments that "...cardboard boxes with cute blue foam, or standard plastic tool cases. These would be easier to make, sell, and ship. Yes that would be the easier way to do business... "
I think you're being too hard on him. He's said nothing derogatory here. Sarcastic? Perhaps. There's no insult here, though. You're seeing him comment that this particular style of product and stocking are not for him. Other people have said it in this thread, too. He's just said it differently.

I have now placed 2 orders with BF. My second was on Black Friday. I have not received it yet, but I did not provide my custom foam images for a week or more after my order... so, it's totally on me. With BOTH orders, however, I've received timely, friendly and accurate responses (these were both BEFORE BF advertised on Bartertown, FWIW). When I had a question, I PMed Kyle or Romeo on Dakka, or I called the 800#. I could not have been happier with their responses and mannerisms.

Negatives:
I do believe that those saying to be more forgiving of delays because of the time of year are giving comparatively poor advice. IMO, shipping times should be accurate. If you're running a sale, any sale, your shipping times should be adjusted accordingly, even if it's just a blurb on the checkout page indicating that orders placed during the sale may see a delay of X to Y weeks.

Using the term "BS" was a poor choice of words. Not because it was necessarily a BAD term, but because some people load certain words & phrases more than others and take something you may have meant innocuously as being an insult (example: I can tell my friends to "Go F*** themselves," but couldn't get away with that with a co-worker, even if I meant it as unagressively with them as with my friend.
I don't know precisely how BF tracks the orders but, if it comes out that the missing half of the FLGS order mentioned earlier did the BF equivalent of "falling behind a machine and getting lost," then ample crow should be eaten.

If someone is claiming to have tried to contact you via phone or email and is having/did have a hard time of it, don't ask them to email/call again. Take the plunge and reach out. Email or PM them and say, "Whoops. Sorry about that. I don't know what happened but, if you'll call xxx-xxx-xxxx and ask for me, I'll handle this personally. Tell me your name, so I can let the operators know who to be on the lookout for," and you'll be surprised just how different their response is.
-------------------------------------------
In response to someone else about BF not supplying foam for their case (sorry... I'm using a Quick reply & your post isn't on this thread):
Have you thought about the fact that your friend & FLGS may have been wrong? I'm not a "collector," so forgive me, but I have never before seen the case you provided a picture of. Did you give the girl on the phone the dimensions? Tell her what product it was, specifically? I mean, your post was a little devoid of details. It made it sound like you called and said "I want foam to fit a GW case," and she said "We don't do that. Want something else?" I doubt that's how it happened.
Regarding the way she answered the phone: Phone operators answer up to hundreds of calls a day. She may have responded with a "scripted" response that was lost in the scratching. You didn't indicate that you didn't hear her. You asked a couple questions, which she directly answered. I think you were a little hyper-sensitive on that, too.

Just my opinions, for what they're worth. No insult intended to anyone.

Eric

runmymouth wrote:
What product would you say is comparable or superior? I am always looking for what suits my purposes best.

Ok, I'm going into this question, assuming it's serious, but aware that it could be something else..... superior or comparable really depends on what you want. As the Battlefoam post on this thread alluded to, theres is a company that is willing to make a foam cut-out for anything.....providing you're willing to WAIT, and possibly deal with the customer service issues we see playing out in this thread.

My comparing Battlefoam to KR was based entirely on my specific needs. I didn't need some wild and whacky design, I needed simple square compartments to hold my miniatures, to this end KR was cheaper, and a very quick turnaround! I know that KR make cases for GW armies, with specific cut-outs to suit vehicles and other gaming products, again, if you want to house your IG army, it's flyers and heavy vehicles, KR make a solution for it, give you the option of a "card board box!", a material carry bag (similar to Battlefoams backpack!) or an Aluminium carry case. So in terms of case options, I would say KR win again.

Last parting point. In the Battlefoam Infinity bag I purchased recently, I actually found the compartments so deep, that the miniatures (whic are actually quite delicate) could easily move around. A problem I never had with KR foam. Perhaps I'm using my Battlefoam case incorrectly, maybe they should put a guide in their specific cases to show which compartments are intended for which miniature....

Thanks never heard of the product looking at it. I was being serious. I didn't want pluck tray but its actually cut foam. I haven't had a problem with battlefoam but I do like knowing what the good competitors are in case I do in the future or my needs change budget wise. Biggest problem looks like they are an english company and shipping will murder me on that.

I don’t like to disect posts. However, as someoone who works in customer services for 10 years, here’s some advise…

The following 2 responses are passive aggressive:

“Second, if you noticed nobody replied to your email within 48 hours, why not call us? We have a free 800 number and skype available 24 hours per day. “

“You also decided to post on here to get some type of traction for your problem but not once did you PM me or Kyle to help you with your problem. Don't you think it would get your farther along if you called the company you need answers from or maybe PM the people that can help? “

This was offering help, had he simply put this, and PM’d the OP with a direct phone number, it would have been a great reaching out

“We are available tomorrow from 8:00 AM to 7:00 PM. I would love to be the one to help you with this problem. I look forward to your call first thing in the morning.“

These are poor responses and overly aggressive

“FLGS order taking 3 months. Sorry to call BS, but no FLGS has ever waited longer than 4 weeks for any order ever since we have been opened. No FLGS would ever do business with us if we kept them waiting that long without a request from them for some special reason to keep it from shipping.

This is a cheap shot at a another company:

“Ya it would be easier to sell cardboard boxes with cute blue foam, or standard plastic tool cases. These would be easier to make, sell, and ship. Yes that would be the easier way to do business. “

These are indirectly and likely accidentally insulting your customers.

“On the other hand we do what others don't. We cater to every silly demand and outlandish creation in the quickest time possible while still releasing new products every week. “

“Lastly, if your not a troll (not saying anyone is) than pick up the phone and call us. Email more than one time or use any of the mediums we are on.”

“I stress again that nobody has PMed me, or Kyle about any of these problems. Nobody on here has bothered to send more than one email, nobody on here felt that their problem was big enough to dial a few numbers on a phone.”

“So lets back it down a bit and put things into perspective. We work close to 70 hours per week with our team combines. It would take an act of god to keep customers from getting answers if they actually tried.”

-------------

Again, I give benefits of the doubt. My reasons for posting are to hopefully give some customer service suggestions. You represent your company. How you speak and portray yourself says what your company does. Perhaps you should reach out to your consumers and apologize

I'll add that I placed an order on Black Friday with a few custom trays and the battle board. I haven't received a shipping email yet and we're approaching the 5 week mark. I get being busy at the holiday and I haven't attempted to contact BF as it's not a huge concern to me. Basically I'm only even looking at the timeline now as I am back home from the holidays and am hoping to see my foam in the mail soon. If I don't get a shipping email by Friday (5 weeks) then I'll start looking into it.

However not everyone has a relatively lax approach. I understand where people come from. I particularly undestand communication issues making people crazy.

Just thought I'd share

"I'm very sorry this happened. Please call or email me right away and I will handle this personally"

is pretty much the optimal post he could have made. Unfortunately he blew his shot at some amazon-style good pr.

runmymouth wrote:Thanks never heard of the product looking at it. I was being serious. I didn't want pluck tray but its actually cut foam. I haven't had a problem with battlefoam but I do like knowing what the good competitors are in case I do in the future or my needs change budget wise. Biggest problem looks like they are an english company and shipping will murder me on that.

KR has a US base of operations as well, I ordered from them last month; you can navigate to the US page from their main menu. FYI.

A lot of stuff KR has does appear to be a bit cheaper. However, many of the large pieces look to be cheaper through BF, comparing the price for a monolith foam tray from BF and KR I get foam that holds 2 from BF and 1 from KR for about the same price. (BF does not have shipping included). Thanks for the info, I will have to do a price comparision/Annalysis of what I am looking for. I do love my 1520 BF case though and I like the large foam trays so it will be hard to justify jumping ship. Good to know there is a ship to jump to should the need arise.

This thread has put me off ordering from BF which I think is a shame as I like there product but this seems to have put a downer on the ordering

Hulksmash wrote:I'll add that I placed an order on Black Friday with a few custom trays and the battle board. I haven't received a shipping email yet and we're approaching the 5 week mark. I get being busy at the holiday and I haven't attempted to contact BF as it's not a huge concern to me. Basically I'm only even looking at the timeline now as I am back home from the holidays and am hoping to see my foam in the mail soon. If I don't get a shipping email by Friday (5 weeks) then I'll start looking into it.

However not everyone has a relatively lax approach. I understand where people come from. I particularly undestand communication issues making people crazy.

Just thought I'd share

I'm in the same boat, and also not concerned. I understand they must be really busy, especially with all the people holding out some, if not all of the year (like myself ) just for the black friday sale.

I've had several jobs where things can get really busy at times, and nothing is more frustrating than people basically asking you to hurry up. If anything it just slows things down. Obviously some people have issues with this, but having been put in these kinds of situations myself, plus my mellow demeanor, I consider it a non-issue.

MagickalMemories wrote:Those of you calling Romeo a bully really need to take a closer look, IMO. The "Old" Romeo (when he was called, I believe, "Captain Diablo" on here) was quite... fiery. LOL I think even Romeo will admit his short temper.
I don't see that same Romeo anymore. I do see someone who is direct and straight-forward and says exactly what he thinks, regardless how PC or touchy-feely is is (or isn't). Maybe someone publicly representing the company [i]shouldn't[/] be like that. I think that is a personal decision for each of us. Myself, I like his direct, candid demeanor.
He's been called out for his comments that "...cardboard boxes with cute blue foam, or standard plastic tool cases. These would be easier to make, sell, and ship. Yes that would be the easier way to do business... "
I think you're being too hard on him. He's said nothing derogatory here. Sarcastic? Perhaps. There's no insult here, though. You're seeing him comment that this particular style of product and stocking are not for him. Other people have said it in this thread, too. He's just said it differently.

I am not just basing my opinion of Romeo on his history here, although his most recent post in this thread does still show the overly aggressive behavior he is known for, albeit the sting of his post did appear more veiled than in history. Direct and straight forward is fine. Veiled insults and overly aggressive behavior to his customer base is not.

I am also basing my opinion of him directly on his behavior during the whole incident with Outrider hobbies. The things that came to light during that affair paint Romeo in a very bad light. If everything is true then he directly threatened an individual with violence, lied to the courts and submitted false evidence, tried to have the case tried in a state that would increase the difficulty of the defendant to actually defend himself and whatever else was not revealed.

All of this combined makes Romeo out to be a very bad person and I choose to not deal with him because of these reasons. I have seen nothing of an attempt to disprove any of these things so my opinion has not changed one bit..

This thread is being closed as the original point of the thread has long been answered. If the OP still has issues with recieving their order, I suggest you contact Battlefoam directly or PM their account here on Dakka. I know they are more than willIng to help you out.