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actually, most of the stuff Ward put in his codices was actually in previous fluff. Fluff dating back to rogue trader. He didn't make that stuff up, just brought it back to our attention.

He's also the best rule writer GW has. Most balanced codices overall.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:In the ever expanding vastness of space there is certainly room for more than 7 war faring races. The imperium has taken over a good portion of the galaxy, but certainly not all of it. There are also large regions that they have not even explored yet, and in that GW has plenty of room to give more variety to the game. I certainly feel that more variety and less of the same old would make the game more interesting and bring more people into the hobby.

So keep saying, and yet you still can not provide a single good example of one of these new xenos armies for which there is supposedly so much scope. It's much easier just to whine about Mat Ward and blame GW than acknowledge that the reality of creating a distinct, playable new army is a more complex proposition than you had thought, eh?

Grey Templar wrote:Well, they could update codices really quickly if Mr Ward did them all. of course he refuses to do Xenos Scum and there would be enough nerd rage to create a new EoT.

But you do have to admit that he works fast.

Necrons would like a word with you...

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Well, they could update codices really quickly if Mr Ward did them all. of course he refuses to do Xenos Scum and there would be enough nerd rage to create a new EoT.

But you do have to admit that he works fast.

Necrons would like a word with you...

shhh, don't spread it around. Besides, everyone knows the Necrons just want to be true ultramarines

English Assassin wrote: So keep saying, and yet you still can not provide a single good example of one of these new xenos armies for which there is supposedly so much scope. It's much easier just to whine about Mat Ward and blame GW than acknowledge that the reality of creating a distinct, playable new army is a more complex proposition than you had thought, eh?

Actually the old 3rd Ed rule book had plenty of examples of undeveloped ideas. The Hrud for example have been lingering around for years without any type of codex. There is also the Tarellian Dog soldiers, Ambul, Chuffian, and there is also that unknown squid looking guy. These guys have been around for years with no development. We can give GW a little credit for giving some table top life to the Kroot. But they didn’t even get their own army, just a foot note in the Tau Codex. Any of these species could be developed into a new an interesting codex, but GW refuses and instead focuses on more marines. Existing fluff is not even a problem as GW has time and time again re-written the fluff to suit their interests at the time, as we have seen in GK, BA, and Necrons.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

English Assassin wrote: So keep saying, and yet you still can not provide a single good example of one of these new xenos armies for which there is supposedly so much scope. It's much easier just to whine about Mat Ward and blame GW than acknowledge that the reality of creating a distinct, playable new army is a more complex proposition than you had thought, eh?

Actually the old 3rd Ed rule book had plenty of examples of undeveloped ideas. The Hrud for example have been lingering around for years without any type of codex. There is also the Tarellian Dog soldiers, Ambul, Chuffian, and there is also that unknown squid looking guy. These guys have been around for years with no development. We can give GW a little credit for giving some table top life to the Kroot. But they didn’t even get their own army, just a foot note in the Tau Codex. Any of these species could be developed into a new an interesting codex, but GW refuses and instead focuses on more marines. Existing fluff is not even a problem as GW has time and time again re-written the fluff to suit their interests at the time, as we have seen in GK, BA, and Necrons.

Actually, the Kroot did get their own army in the form of a WD article (or was it a downloadable from the GW site? I forget). Its not one of the main books, but it exists.

The Hrud fluff really wouldn't go well with a codex. They are vermin, not a galactic threat.

The other aliens don't have much fluff at all so that is a possability, but not much to go on besides a name and a drawing. which still leaves us with having to make fluff up.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

English Assassin wrote: So keep saying, and yet you still can not provide a single good example of one of these new xenos armies for which there is supposedly so much scope. It's much easier just to whine about Mat Ward and blame GW than acknowledge that the reality of creating a distinct, playable new army is a more complex proposition than you had thought, eh?

Actually the old 3rd Ed rule book had plenty of examples of undeveloped ideas. The Hrud for example have been lingering around for years without any type of codex. There is also the Tarellian Dog soldiers, Ambul, Chuffian, and there is also that unknown squid looking guy.

Undeveloped ideas, however, are not nearly enough. If you want to complain that GW should make more xenos armies - or at least if you want to do and be taken seriously - you will have to demonstrate that these vague titbits of fluff can be developed into workable armies with a distinct aesthetic and which will provide players with something unlike any other army on the tabletop in terms of rules and strategy. As I have said already, you need to demonstrate that there is a viable niche to be filled by a new army, until you can do that, your complaints will remain directionless whining.

And really, stop complaining about the number of variant Space Marine lists; that they are GW's top seller, and that the company is happy to pander to its fans wasn't news two decades ago, let alone today.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Actually, the Kroot did get their own army in the form of a WD article (or was it a downloadable from the GW site? I forget). Its not one of the main books, but it exists.

Yes they had a small article in WD, which was later published in Chapter approved, but it was really designed to be an ally and did not work well as a stand alone list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:The Hrud fluff really wouldn't go well with a codex. They are vermin, not a galactic threat.

The other aliens don't have much fluff at all so that is a possability, but not much to go on besides a name and a drawing. which still leaves us with having to make fluff up.

As I said before existing fluff is not really an obstacle due to the fact that GW is willing to change it to suit their needs. Also the Hrud were listed in the 3rd edition book as an alien threat, so they must endanger the galaxy on some level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

English Assassin wrote: Undeveloped ideas, however, are not nearly enough. If you want to complain that GW should make more xenos armies - or at least if you want to do and be taken seriously - you will have to demonstrate that these vague titbits of fluff can be developed into workable armies with a distinct aesthetic and which will provide players with something unlike any other army on the tabletop in terms of rules and strategy. As I have said already, you need to demonstrate that there is a viable niche to be filled by a new army, until you can do that, your complaints will remain directionless whining.

And really, stop complaining about the number of variant Space Marine lists; that they are GW's top seller, and that the company is happy to pander to its fans wasn't news two decades ago, let alone today.

All things start with a small idea; it is only small people that cannot make them into larger ideas. Also if you recall the Tau were only a few sentences in the old rule book and they were developed into an entire army. Why because somebody in the studio picked up the idea and ran with it, developing progressing not stagnating. That is the problem nobody in the studio is willing to run with a new idea, they only want to focus on the old. It is up to the studio to take the ideas and develop them into a niche.
On a personal not if you are not going to contribute to the conversation, please drop out of the thread and not continue to man the GW defense bandwagon.

of course they can rewrite stuff, thats always an option, but without a rewrite the Hrud arn't an option. The Hrud are a threat, but not exactly a military one. Not like other aliens are. Hrud don't create an army to unleash on their enemies, they just sneak on aboard ships and create a colony in the sewers and dark spaces below Imperial installations. They then might start killing people who run into them but they arn't on an all out attack. Then the PDF or IG goes in and cleanses the infestation with high casualities.

Hrud make good opponents in Rogue Trader or Necromunda. Small engagement/roleplay type games, but they don't belong in the larger warfare that 40k is meant to represent.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:I'd like to see a Codex:Xeno Alliance or something. How Tau were meant to be, a load of previously mentioned but never expanded Xenos.

Tau are supposedly getting new species in the next codex.

Many xenos species are far too small to represent any kind of threat, even the Kroot were extremely meager until they sided with the Tau empire, even more so with Vespids.

McNinja wrote:There are dozens, if not hundreds of alien species littered throughout the galaxy, they just aren't mentioned. The Ghost Stars area is host to dozens of species, and require an entire SM chapter just to guard it, to make sure the malevolent aliens inside don't get out.

Keeping mind that, despite all of the worlds the Imperium has, they probably haven't explored that much of the galaxy. There could be aliens species left untouched in random areas, not due to Warp storms or anything like that, but simply because the galaxy is really really big, and they just haven't been discovered yet. I would hazard that the IoM has only fully mapped and explored about 20-30% of the galaxy.

As for why they aren't playable armies, it mostly comes down to how much money GW wants to spend on creating models the might not sell well. Also, the current species we can play are the biggest players in the galaxy.

Yeah and lets not forget about the chapters that have to face them there are some strange creatures out there.

Grey Templar wrote:of course they can rewrite stuff, thats always an option, but without a rewrite the Hrud arn't an option. The Hrud are a threat, but not exactly a military one. Not like other aliens are. Hrud don't create an army to unleash on their enemies, they just sneak on aboard ships and create a colony in the sewers and dark spaces below Imperial installations. They then might start killing people who run into them but they arn't on an all out attack. Then the PDF or IG goes in and cleanses the infestation with high casualities.

Hrud make good opponents in Rogue Trader or Necromunda. Small engagement/roleplay type games, but they don't belong in the larger warfare that 40k is meant to represent.

I don’t know that could make for a very interesting concept. The Hrud could send out all of those small groups to establish footholds in other races territory to await a larger invasion force. The larger Hrud empire/kingdom/whatever might be off in an unchartered region of space sending out infestation cells to gather useful tactical information on enemies. They could even have some kind of special chart they role on at the beginning of the game to gain an ability to represent information gained by the infestation.

If you read the HH, many races are mentioned....however as was stated, most cohesive ones were annihilated in the Great Crusade

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

English Assassin wrote: So keep saying, and yet you still can not provide a single good example of one of these new xenos armies for which there is supposedly so much scope. It's much easier just to whine about Mat Ward and blame GW than acknowledge that the reality of creating a distinct, playable new army is a more complex proposition than you had thought, eh?

Actually the old 3rd Ed rule book had plenty of examples of undeveloped ideas. The Hrud for example have been lingering around for years without any type of codex. There is also the Tarellian Dog soldiers, Ambul, Chuffian, and there is also that unknown squid looking guy. These guys have been around for years with no development. We can give GW a little credit for giving some table top life to the Kroot. But they didn’t even get their own army, just a foot note in the Tau Codex. Any of these species could be developed into a new an interesting codex, but GW refuses and instead focuses on more marines. Existing fluff is not even a problem as GW has time and time again re-written the fluff to suit their interests at the time, as we have seen in GK, BA, and Necrons.

The problem is, for every new race and army they bring out, they have to accept the development costs of new molds, all the while diluting their existing market. Players want new plastics for existing armies (some factions like Eldar have almost no available troop types, lol), those cost money to develop, and which take longer to recoup than say, Marines.

The other barring factor is that GW likes to hold complete control on their IP. Hence why in tournaments or GW stores you have to use GW product. If they were willing to allow other companies to make miniatures under license then these minor races, which would be burdensome to GW, would be profitable for another company. But we know that won't happen. GW isn't swimming in liquid assets like they might have once been. There just isn't the money or interest to dilute its model range with more options.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:of course they can rewrite stuff, thats always an option, but without a rewrite the Hrud arn't an option. The Hrud are a threat, but not exactly a military one. Not like other aliens are. Hrud don't create an army to unleash on their enemies, they just sneak on aboard ships and create a colony in the sewers and dark spaces below Imperial installations. They then might start killing people who run into them but they arn't on an all out attack. Then the PDF or IG goes in and cleanses the infestation with high casualities.

Hrud make good opponents in Rogue Trader or Necromunda. Small engagement/roleplay type games, but they don't belong in the larger warfare that 40k is meant to represent.

I don’t know that could make for a very interesting concept. The Hrud could send out all of those small groups to establish footholds in other races territory to await a larger invasion force. The larger Hrud empire/kingdom/whatever might be off in an unchartered region of space sending out infestation cells to gather useful tactical information on enemies. They could even have some kind of special chart they role on at the beginning of the game to gain an ability to represent information gained by the infestation.

You know, that would actually be a pretty interesting army to play. It would be like skaven crossed with guerrilla fighters.
They could have a special rule where they come in from reserve on any place on the map (but only certain areas designated by the Hrud player before hand) to represent them coming from the sewers. In fact, I believe that Cities of Death has a stratagem like that.
And they could have special abilities that are determined at the the beginning of the game, to represent saboteurs and spies.

Of course, to balance it out they would have to have terrible stats and equipment.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:I'd like to see a Codex:Xeno Alliance or something. How Tau were meant to be, a load of previously mentioned but never expanded Xenos.

Tau are supposedly getting new species in the next codex.

Many xenos species are far too small to represent any kind of threat, even the Kroot were extremely meager until they sided with the Tau empire, even more so with Vespids.

Actually, Tau are getting two new species added to their roster: a new insectoid species and the d... something. They were mentioned in the current Tau codex but were never really expanded up[on other than their tech outmatches the IoMs by a lot, but thankfully usually flee from a fight. I really can't wait to drop $500 on the new Tau. Really. I'm actually kind of excited.

Any species could potentially be a new Army. There's the Xenarch Death Arc weapon in the Inquisitor rulebook,and the small fluff with it states that the Xenarch are capable of creating energy cells that are far more efficient and just better in every way than the IoMs. There's the several already mentioned. All any species would need is a fluff expansion, then BAM, new army. However, if I were in charge of GW, I wouldn't add a new army. Why? It would be too much. I mean, there are 12 armies as of now (not including codex'd SM chapters like SWs or BAs). Other tabletop games have less than that. Infinity has seven, not including Mercs, and Warmachine has five (I think).

GW needs to focus on expanding the fluff of each army as well as advancing the plot.

McNinja wrote:[Actually, Tau are getting two new species added to their roster: a new insectoid species and the d... something. They were mentioned in the current Tau codex but were never really expanded up[on other than their tech outmatches the IoMs by a lot, but thankfully usually flee from a fight.

Demiurg. They have a ship in BFG as well. They've also changed from their initial conept. They used to be renamed Squats. now they're rock monsters.

The main problem, as people have said, with a new army is cost. They need to work it from the ground up from concept to writing to model concepts, through to finished models to tooling plastic molds. It's a lot of work to do for something totally new. They didn't even want to redo Dark Eldar due to the amount of work it would be, and they have established stuff already. So I can't see them wanting to invest in something totally new now that might backfire.

The only new book I can see them approving is a Mechanicus book, because there's already a lot of groundwork laid, and a huge amount of interest from players.

There are seven Human armies (five of which are types of space marine), six alien races, and one extra-dimensional army

In two of those alien races their near identical in appearance to humans, one is basically androids, one is orcs in space and one is a conglomeration of three races, though their predominantly Tau. The only really original looking and unique feeling alien army in 40K in my opinion are the Tyranids. I love Kroot, but their only part of the Tau, and while I like Necrons, their still a little unoriginal

Personally I'd go for a race of slavers who force other aliens to fight for them, or who lobotomize/mind control other races, like a mix of Chaos Dwarfs, old Fantasy Slann and the mind control Tyranids from rogue trader

Mind control would just feel too much like Necrons.


I think the best expansion alien race would be an aquatic race. One that only walks on land inside massive walker constructs. The basic foot soldiers could be robots that are controlled psychically by the aquatic creatures from the safety of their vehicles.

HQs would all be walker type vehicles. Troops would be swarms of weak psychic controlled robots. Elites would be squads of walkers. Fast Attack would be fast skimmer and flyers. heavy support would be giant walkers.

Troops wouldn't function properly unless there was a psychic guy nearby to control them.

So a mix of Necrons and Tyranids together is better than just Necrons?

I do like the concept though, but I didn't see anything wrong with the slavers one either.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:All things start with a small idea; it is only small people that cannot make them into larger ideas.

Then, go on, demonstrate that you could make a viable, distinct army with the Hrud or whatever.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:On a personal not if you are not going to contribute to the conversation, please drop out of the thread and not continue to man the GW defense bandwagon.

That's pretty low; I have contributed some incisive questions which you have conspicuously failed to address. I'm sorry you feel so threatened by your inability to answer them that you feel obliged to resort to ad hominem attacks.

The reason why so many races in 40k are humanoid is because during the War in Heaven, 80% of sentient life in the galaxy was destroyed, with the survivors being the ones made by the Old Ones in their image (Orks, Eldar, Humans, etc.). Add to that the anarchy following the Fall of the Eldar, the purges of the Great Crusade and post-Heresy Imperial Crusades, it's no wonder so few alien races exist. To be honest, I don't really see how we can add more races into the mix, considering the hostile nature of the 40k galaxy. It's not just Humans who are xenophobic, even Eldar and Tau are, though only the Orks would come close to matching Mankind's xenophobia, and the Tyranids eating everything in their path.

Orks aren't xenophobic.

That would require them to fear other races.

They just want to beat them up, over and over again. If they actually wiped them out it would be a bit of a downer for them, as they'd only have themselves to fight.

Sorry, let me fix it. What I meant was that as far as they're concerned, everything that isn't 'green' is worth only destroying. Probably closer to the Eldar's legendary arrogance, which is the only thing matching Mankind's hateful xenophobia, although it can be argued that Eldar fear Mankind's unstable nature, as it not only feeds Chaos, it can also overturn fate as shown when either Chaos or Eldar prophecies are 'broken' by sheer Human stubbornness.

English Assassin wrote:
Then, go on, demonstrate that you could make a viable, distinct army with the Hrud or whatever.

As I have expressed before this thread is to discuss GW’s ability or lack thereof to develop new races, not anyone else’s. It is also to discuss what kind of races you would like to see if any.


Moving on

On the topic of cost, I do not think that this is too much of a stumbling block for GW. Most of their sculptors are on retainer or regular employees, so it is not like the old days when they had to pay on commission. Tooling could be an issue in the development of new molds, but this is mostly offset by the very low production cost, they buy resin and plastic for a laughable fraction of what they sell product for. Packaging is going not really an issue nothing would be package any different than they already do. Advertising is also minimal considering that they really do not advertise outside of their own publications. I don’t see any of these to be real blocks to developing a new race. GW has proven year after year that they can absorb production cost when they continue to put money into the production of LoTR when it sells very poorly. Also both of the core games have armies that sell very poorly, yet they stay in production and get moderate amount of updates, key examples being Bretonians and Sisters of Battle.

Also I would agree that there are other armies that deserve/need plastics before a new race is introduced. However in GW’s favor they have demonstrated in the past that they can focus on more than one thing at a time. For fantasy they were able to focus on Storm of Magic while new books and models were being developed for both Ogres and Tomb Kings. Recently a total re-write of GK and a whole new model range did not slow they down the still had a SoB update and Necrons lurking in the wings.

Based on current fluff, a new race would be like the Tau, one of the few non Old Ones-influenced races that somehow withstood the hostile nature of the 40k galaxy. Basically, humanoid/slannoid races are descended from the creations of the Old Ones. Orks, Humans, and Eldar all have the same basic body structure. Tau don't. They're probably the only real 'alien' race, apart from the Tyranids, in 40k.

Squidmanlolz wrote:[Many xenos species are far too small to represent any kind of threat, even the Kroot were extremely meager until they sided with the Tau empire, even more so with Vespids.

Given how meager the Vespids still are you have to wonder why the Tau bothered.

Skriker

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:[As I have expressed before this thread is to discuss GW’s ability or lack thereof to develop new races, not anyone else’s. It is also to discuss what kind of races you would like to see if any.

Oh I see. You're trying to discuss the viability of adding new armies, without... discussing the viability of adding new armies. Good luck with that.

Well, no matter how hard GW try we just wine more and more. You just proved how much GW are trying to win us fans back but are making a few mistakes. GW actually do care about us fans as without us they do not exhist. They're sales are going down, as warmachine, hordes, infinity ETC. Are all very popular wargames now and have better rulesets and generally smaller price costs. So GW have to do sme amazing stuff to get us back to them. How would you win back the fans atm, just create new armies that won't sell until you have no money left? Or would you lower price costs? Both of them options just bring you closer to failure. They just have to get all their exhisting stuff into plastics, then lower prices and the fans will be back as the plastics will attract the fans again and the price drop will allow them to buy an army.