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The whole situation is a bit weird, since the rulebook does not clearly use the notion of turn and round.

Here is the rulebook entry for witchblade:

Channel: A witchblade can be channeled at the
start of the Movement phase of the wielder. The
effect lasts until the start of the wielder’s next
turn. During this time the model can re-roll any
failed invulnerable save.

wuestenfux wrote:The whole situation is a bit weird, since the rulebook does not clearly use the notion of turn and round.

Here is the rulebook entry for witchblade:

Channel: A witchblade can be channeled at the
start of the Movement phase of the wielder. The
effect lasts until the start of the wielder’s next
turn. During this time the model can re-roll any
failed invulnerable save.

The way I read that is that if a model with a witchblade passes a morale (psychic) test, they can reroll saves until the start of your next turn.
There are a few things to gather about warlocks from the rules snippets below
* Passive powers are more powerful as they cannot be blocked (embolden, enhance)
* Warlocks are mobile psychic defense
* Warlocks on foot move 8". Warlocks on bikes move 10". Warlocks on foot are no longer a 'fail' unit.
* Destructor cannot be used the same turn as witchblades
* Embolden is now critical to get the wichblade to work. It increases the chance of success from 60% to 84%.
* Witchblades can be countered by enemy psykers. This is a big risk.

Psycho-reactive weapons can be filled with energy by a psyker to enhance its destructive powers manifold. A weapon with this rule has a special ability that is only activated if the wielder successfully uses a Channel psychic power. If a psyker is equipped with a weapon with this special rule, he automatically has the Channel power as well.

Psykers have a varying number of psychic powers at their disposal. The number is not tied to the Mastery Level of the model. For example, a Space Marine Librarian has a Mastery Level of 1 but has two different psychic powers. In addition to his normal powers, every psyker has the Channel power. Without the right equipment the power is of no use, though.

Using a channel power works exactly like a normal psychic power. It is a Psychic action, counts against the Mastery level and the psyker must pass a Psychic test

Passive powers do not count as psychic powers at all. The reason to call them ‘psychic’ in the first place is to explain their heritage in the universe of Warhammer 40,000. For all game purposes they are not psychic powers. They do not count against the number of powers the psyker can use, need no Psychic test and cannot be nullified by abilities that stop psychic powers. Passive powers count in all regards as individual special rules or as weapons in case of a psychic shooting attack.

If an enemy psyker is using one of his powers within 24” of any psyker of your own, you can try to cancel the power. Roll a D6. If the result is 5 or higher, the psychic power is nullified and does not take effect that turn

Page 28 - Fortune
This is a modifying power. Fortune is used at the start
of the Farseer’s Movement phase and do not require
the Farseer to have line of sight to target. Nominate
one Eldar unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer.
This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes until the end
of the unit’s next turn or the end of the current turn if
the unit acts in the same turn as the Farseer.

The last sentence is hard to understand. Does it say that when the Fortuneseer leads a unit of Warlocks and the Warlocks active (channeling power) their witchblades and the Farseer fortunes the Warlocks (which makes eventually not much sense), fortune will only last until the Eldar's turn?

Destructor is a passive psychic power and does not count against the model's mastery level, labmouse42. Also, you might want to update OP, Defender Guardians can not get +1A from catapults since they do not have CCW.

wuestenfux wrote:

Page 28 - Fortune
This is a modifying power. Fortune is used at the start
of the Farseer’s Movement phase and do not require
the Farseer to have line of sight to target. Nominate
one Eldar unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer.
This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes until the end
of the unit’s next turn or the end of the current turn if
the unit acts in the same turn as the Farseer.

The last sentence is hard to understand. Does it say that when the Fortuneseer leads a unit of Warlocks and the Warlocks active (channeling power) their witchblades and the Farseer fortunes the Warlocks (which makes eventually not much sense), fortune will only last until the Eldar's turn?

Agreed. That is one horribly written rule. I can't figure out what they mean. I think it is a copy-paste flub

wuestenfux wrote:

Page 28 - Fortune
This is a modifying power. Fortune is used at the start
of the Farseer’s Movement phase and do not require
the Farseer to have line of sight to target. Nominate
one Eldar unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer.
This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes until the end
of the unit’s next turn or the end of the current turn if
the unit acts in the same turn as the Farseer.

The last sentence is hard to understand. Does it say that when the Fortuneseer leads a unit of Warlocks and the Warlocks active (channeling power) their witchblades and the Farseer fortunes the Warlocks (which makes eventually not much sense), fortune will only last until the Eldar's turn?

The whole "acts in the same turn" is just a Set Sail For Fail phrasing, in my opinion. It's perfectly clear for Guide, but murky to the extreme for a reactive ability.

Mahtamori wrote:Destructor is a passive psychic power and does not count against the model's mastery level, labmouse42. Also, you might want to update OP, Defender Guardians can not get +1A from catapults since they do not have CCW.

Are you sure its a passive power? Didn't the codex update say it was a psychic shooting power?

labmouse42 wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Destructor is a passive psychic power and does not count against the model's mastery level, labmouse42. Also, you might want to update OP, Defender Guardians can not get +1A from catapults since they do not have CCW.

Are you sure its a passive power? Didn't the codex update say it was a psychic shooting power?

Codex PDF
Page 28 - Warlock powers
A Warlock’s power is a passive power and available
permanently, so he does not need to take a Psychic test
to use it.

Rulebook PDF page 88, page number 109
They do not count against
the number of powers the psyker can use, need
no Psychic test and cannot be nullified by abilities
that stop psychic powers. Passive powers count in
all regards as individual special rules or as
weapons in case of a psychic shooting attack.

Codex Updates p31

Page 28 - Destructor
Destructor is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile
Template 5 4 Assault 1

Put since its a passive power, its just treated as a weapon.
Thanks for pointing that out.

Well, is there a limitation on the passive (destructor) and active (witchblade) powers that can be used in a turn?

wuestenfux wrote:Well, is there a limitation on the passive (destructor) and active (witchblade) powers that can be used in a turn?

One active power per turn per mastery level. Passive powers are only limited by the numbers the model is allowed to take by the codex. Of course, psychic shooting attacks are always limited by the same restrictions as a normal weapon would be.

If anyone would want to be a real arse about it, I guess you could rules lawyer that a Farseer only has a mastery level if he purchases a stone, and that a Warlock is never given a level at all. But I'm not an arse

Was just scanning BoLS this morning before class and saw this line and cried a little inside for my Dire Avengers.

"Also you can't control an objective in a vehicle. I guess those Rhinos are going to go back to being walls again instead of boxes."

While he was thinking of Marines when he wrote it this is going to impact most Eldar builds more than the fortune nerf. If this is true (don't have leaked rules just been reading about them) it will mean DAVU tanks are dead. I see Jetbikes gaining popularity as they are the only non-vehicle fast troop choice. Jetbikes also benefit for the Jink rule making them more resilient than in 5th. I also think a squad of Rangers will be valuable to Mech Eldar lists as they have the ability to direct hits to those melta guns and can camp backfield objectives all game.

If the fortune nerf turns out to be more than just a bad copy paste job I think it really hurts foot Eldar as well. The fortuned Avatar with Eldrad is a staple of that kind of list, some foot lists also use large fortuned Wraithguard squads. The reduction of the cover save also hurts the troops as guardians relied on cover to survive.

alspal8me wrote:Was just scanning BoLS this morning before class and saw this line and cried a little inside for my Dire Avengers.

"Also you can't control an objective in a vehicle. I guess those Rhinos are going to go back to being walls again instead of boxes."

While he was thinking of Marines when he wrote it this is going to impact most Eldar builds more than the fortune nerf. If this is true (don't have leaked rules just been reading about them) it will mean DAVU tanks are dead. I see Jetbikes gaining popularity as they are the only non-vehicle fast troop choice. Jetbikes also benefit for the Jink rule making them more resilient than in 5th. I also think a squad of Rangers will be valuable to Mech Eldar lists as they have the ability to direct hits to those melta guns and can camp backfield objectives all game. .

Pathfinders are going to be the new Eldar go-to for holding objectives. The ability to snipe out commissars and special/heavy weapons makes them invalueable. Given how many rending hits pathfinders get, one squad will be in every army.

What this means is that eldar won't be able to do the 5 man avenger squad cheeze for mid-end field objectives. You will need to drop the full squad on the objective to hold it. I see 10 man avenger squads with defend being more common. You might also consider using a 20 man guardian squad for the same purpose.

I guess that means the DAVU god-Falcon plan is dead.

Nah, now the god-Falcon just needs to drop off it's goods and then make sure it survives like good little porcelain cups.

Additionally, skimmer models with bases no longer provide cover saves to units hiding behind them, another nail in the coffin for DAVU. Add to that the need to hold an objective every round and you'll be looking for Troops units with more stamina, like 10-man Wraithguard units and 10-man Pathfinders.

labmouse42 wrote:
Fortune is *much* less useful as its written. The only way you can use it on your opponents turn is to not use the fortuned model during your turn.
As a tarpit unit, bike warlocks seem expensive, but I will need to playtest them to really see.

You can never use Fortune on your opponent's turn. The provision that Eldar psychic powers are used at the start of the Eldar player's turn was not done away with in the errata/update.

Pathfinders are a staple in the new ed. Well, there are cover-save ignoring weapons out there. Given the new scatter rule, Thunder cannons and Whirlwinds will be able to reduce Pathfinders or Rangers pretty quickly.

The best troop unit to hold an objective is a full Wraithguard squad.

DarknessEternal wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:
Fortune is *much* less useful as its written. The only way you can use it on your opponents turn is to not use the fortuned model during your turn.
As a tarpit unit, bike warlocks seem expensive, but I will need to playtest them to really see.

You can never use Fortune on your opponent's turn. The provision that Eldar psychic powers are used at the start of the Eldar player's turn was not done away with in the errata/update.

Perhaps I was not clear enough. Please read the following quote.

This is a modifying power. Fortune is used at the star of the Farseer’s Movement phase and do not require the Farseer to have line of sight to target. Nominate one Eldar unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer. This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes until the end of the unit’s next turn or the end of the current turn if the unit acts in the same turn as the Farseer

When i reffered to "it", I was speaking of the ability to reroll the saves.

If you do not have the unit act during your turn, they can use the fortuned save. The way I read this is the fortuned unit cannot move, shoot, or make any support actions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:Pathfinders are a staple in the new ed. Well, there are cover-save ignoring weapons out there. Given the new scatter rule, Thunder cannons and Whirlwinds will be able to reduce Pathfinders or Rangers pretty quickly.

The best troop unit to hold an objective is a full Wraithguard squad.

A 10 man squad of T6 troops is very hard to dislodge in shooting. Provided you have enough to keep them from getting assaulted, its an incredibly tough unit -- especially if you take conceal.

As a side, note, you can now use a serpent wall to block assaults from your units. Since you can shoot through it...

labmouse42 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:Pathfinders are a staple in the new ed. Well, there are cover-save ignoring weapons out there. Given the new scatter rule, Thunder cannons and Whirlwinds will be able to reduce Pathfinders or Rangers pretty quickly.

The best troop unit to hold an objective is a full Wraithguard squad.

A 10 man squad of T6 troops is very hard to dislodge in shooting. Provided you have enough to keep them from getting assaulted, its an incredibly tough unit -- especially if you take conceal.

As a side, note, you can now use a serpent wall to block assaults from your units. Since you can shoot through it...

However, an IG army may have several large S8 blasts. With a 5++ cover save and the new scatter rule, even a full Wraithguard unit will eventually be decimated quickly.

You mean lose one model?!


lol

SlaveToDorkness wrote:You mean lose one model?!


lol

Not just one model per turn or blast. The scatter rule allows precise shooting of large blasts.

I feel like a lot of Eldar players will rush out to grab pathfinders for directed hits and after a solid month of playtesting half of those players will put them back on the shelf.

The fact that they have to stay stationary, not being able to fire if they infiltrate, and you can block directed hits with transports and intervening units, puts them into a position where they might not be incredibly effective at all until at least turn 2.

At that point, I have a Hellhound, Dreadknight, Thunderfire Cannon, Frag Cannon, Whirlwind, etc. blowing them off the table. With the new rules, you are not preventing any of them from firing, especially with reserve manipulation and how reserves work. A Thunderfire Cannon, almost guaranteed to show up second turn right at the perfect LOS and still count as stationary is a big deal. Hellhounds from reserve have a 30" threat range. Even if you deploy these tanks, actually silencing them takes a lot of effort, as Extra Armor is now a mandatory upgrade (IMHO), which makes half of your penetrations irrelevent. Hull Breaches don't stack from simultaneous hits, whech means to garuntee anything you will have to have multiple units firing at them, which increases the viability of these units paired.

And I guarantee you these units will see more and more too. Sniper units can't be allowed to live long because of Directed hits.

I foresee Wraithguard being the go to tarpit and objective holder. They can last a long time, even in assault, constantly wracking up those points and generally being a pain to knock off an objective.


The Fortune ruling can only be a typo, there is no way that it only works during the Eldar's turn.

wuestenfux wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:You mean lose one model?!


lol

Not just one model per turn or blast. The scatter rule allows precise shooting of large blasts.

Decimated means to destroy one-tenth of. He was making a joke at your expense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:
The best troop unit to hold an objective is a full Wraithguard squad.

No way will this unit ever be cost effective. Tactical Marines have nothing to fear in assaulting them, let alone anything good at assault.

DarknessEternal wrote:
The best troop unit to hold an objective is a full Wraithguard squad.
No way will this unit ever be cost effective. Tactical Marines have nothing to fear in assaulting them, let alone anything good at assault.

Eldar has nothing that comes close to Tactical Marines, possibly a full Dire Avenger unit with defend (and fortune).

I don't quite understand why people are so enthusiastic about the new warlocks.

It seems to me witchblades got seriously nerfed with only a small added bonus of an inbuilt fortune (which doesn't even make up for the horrible nerf the farseer's fortune was treated to).

Am I missing something here that makes locks more worthwhile than in 5th ed?

After reading the new rules and codex update, I am not feeling very comfortable with the Eldar in 6th edition at all.... Hmmm I was hoping they would come out with 6th ed, but I think it is the black templars and Choas marines... of course we could not have a new edition not start with SPACE MARINES.... Thanks Labmouse for starting this thread it has been educational...

On the vehicle note, do you think the Vertical Engines are worthwhile taking as it stops an immobilized result once, which is powerful, but is it worth the cost? What are everyone's thoughts. I would love Falcons more if they were BS 4.... Cheers

Seeing the changes to Farseer and Warlocks has me disappointed. I was expecting Eldar to get more psychic, not less. In fact some of those changes have me questioning the legitimacy of the leak all over again. These things don't seem in the spirit of what I thought they'd do with Eldar. I may be way off base, but Guide and Fortune seem really silly. And so do mastery level 1 Farseers.

Popenfresh wrote:
Am I missing something here that makes locks more worthwhile than in 5th ed?

No, they are demonstrably worse.

dnanoodle wrote:Seeing the changes to Farseer and Warlocks has me disappointed. I was expecting Eldar to get more psychic, not less. In fact some of those changes have me questioning the legitimacy of the leak all over again. These things don't seem in the spirit of what I thought they'd do with Eldar. I may be way off base, but Guide and Fortune seem really silly. And so do mastery level 1 Farseers.

Because that's how they are in the codex now? They can use one power (Mastery level 1), And spirit stones brings it up to 2. The problem with what your suggesting is that your looking for an actual Codex update, not a miniupdate to bring them in line with the new rules. Which is what this was.

Until the codex gets an update, that simply is how it was it. I mean the rail rule is in effect but they havn't given anything in Tau it yet. So it's likely needing an update to bring it up to Actual eldar standards.

Want someone to blame? Blame Jervis and his horrible 4th edition streamlining.