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DarknessEternal wrote:There's no evidence of that.
Actually, according to Index Astartes, Angron did choose to spare strong warriors he defeated in the ring, which implied that gladiators could choose whether or not to kill their opponents.
In Deliverance Lost, Corax reflects on his fight with Night Haunter on Istvaan V, he says how he could easily defeat him, how he has also defeated Horus. Ergo, Corax, despite saying that only Horus or maybe Sanguinius could defeat Angron, could do it So your statement is incorrect Bran Dawr, I always thought that statement was in regards to Valdor being the only Custodian to beat Horus
And yes I used ergo in a sentence.
The problem with all these contests, really, is that every now and then anybody can beat anybody else. There is no such thing as a 'fair' fight, and all fights are close-run. The tiniest things will have a dramatic effect on how a match goes; if you have a headache, if your opponent hasn't stretched enough or you've stretched too much, if one of you is having a bad day and it's made them really angry, if someone has an injury (even a very minor one) that hasn't completely healed, anything and everything can completely change the outcome. There are way, way too many variables to say that a given person would win against another given person 100% of the time. Repetitive training builds in reflexes and lower a fighter's reaction time against the usual sorts of things that happen in fights, the standard strikes, parries and dodges that practically anyone using a sword has to make use of; combat experience reinforces that, and also gives a fighter experience at dealing with the UNusual things that happen, experience in recovering from random chance. But still, nobody can ever compensate for everything 100%.
There's an old saying; 'The world's best swordsman does not fear the second-best. He fears the worst, because he cannot predict what an ignorant man will do.' The point is that anything might happen; I don't care how good a swordsman you are, if you accidentally step on a stick you didn't notice, or a pebble, or a slight inclination of the ground, and roll your ankle in the middle of a sword-fight, you are almost certainly a dead man. I don't have any trouble believing that Corax defeated Horus once; but that doesn't mean that Corax is a 'better' fighter than Horus, it just means that on that particular day, at that particular time, something happened that he was able to capitalize on.
The quote actually says that Horus and Corax were an even match, my bad, so they either fought to a stalemate in their sparring or they were able to defeat each other. But I get your point.
In a fight with of Primarch vs Primarch there is no sure outcome. My comment about Corax being able to do it was to show the silliness, for lack of a better word (where's my thesaurus?), of these arguments as it would come down to happenstance of the battle. Corax says in Ravens Flight that only Horus or Sangy could beat Angron, but then says in Deliverance lost that he has beaten Horus in a fight, so could possibly defeat Angron by conclusion.
Unless there is a quote somewhere saying Angron won every battle against every Primarch he had ever thought then the outcome of Leman vs Angron will remain unknown. We can use what info we have to formulate an idea of who would win, but it's still not a guaranteed outcome.
I posted this in the Primarch Battle Royal thread to kinda summarize this point, that the unexpected can happen. I'll spoiler it so you can ignore it if you want
Spoiler:
Guilliman is the first too die as EVERYONE bundles him. Lion goes after Horus because he thinks he should have been Warmaster as he was the First one to be created. Mortarion and Russ jump on Magnus who is trying to do some magic mumbo shizzle and quickly put him down. Peturabo and Kurze double team Dorn, who gets flattened and sliced at the same time. Lorgar is stood there trying to stop the fight.
Alpharius and Omegon are keeping their heads low and just bidding their time. Angron goes after Sanguinius as he's the only one to offer a challenge but he flies away. This annoys Angron who, unsurprisingly, gets angry and starts to yell. This attracts the attention of Ferrus who punches his head off. Lorgar is still trying to diffuse the situation.
Kurze and Corax are duking it out claw to claw until Vulkan turns them both to crispy critters with his flamer, that duly explodes as Ferrus crushes it with his hand flinging them both backwards. Alpharius and Omegon, never to turn down an opportunity, rush over to Ferrus and use his own fists to beat him to death with the 'stop hitting yourself' style. Vulkans stricken form is then poked a few times in the brain by Fulgrim who has done little but laugh at the whole situation and talk to himself.
After sharing an 'I never liked the one eyed git' moment Russ starts to punch Mortarion in the face, who after a few hits to the noggin', decides that he doesn't like being punched much and quicker than you can say 'there are no wolves on Fenris' slices Russ in half with his Manreaper. Russ was never that bright. Seeing his old rival now half the man he used to be Lion is distracted for a second, letting forth a guffaw of amusement, allowing Horus to give him a pat on the head and then a squeeze. Fulgrim is talking to Lorgar who looks somewhat confused.
The Khan has been running around chasing Sanguinuis who is still flying around like a fairy. Unfortunately for him, Sanguinuis is aware of this, who flies over a wide chasm which the Khan plummets into after not paying enough attention as to where he was running.
So on Angron vs Russ, Leman might see a Rabbit, Angron's switch might move from ANGRY to Passive. But I guess my money would be on Angron if I had to place a bet.
Void__Dragon wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:There's no evidence of that.
Actually, according to Index Astartes, Angron did choose to spare strong warriors he defeated in the ring, which implied that gladiators could choose whether or not to kill their opponents.
IA: World Eaters - After only a few months, Angron had gained a bloody reputation as a proud warrior of fearsome skill with a strong sense of martial honour. He killed hundreds of warriors, in single and multiple combats, but those who fought well, he spared.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/09 10:09:15
Angron vs. Leman Russ is an interesting match up. They both have similar specialties...
Personally, I don't believe in the absolutists that think something like: Primarch X>Primarch Y>Primarch Zā„Primarch K=Primarch Q
That kind of thinking is wrong for a lot of reasons...Mostly because different match ups produce different outcomes. Kinda like how in Football Team X can beat Team Y and lose to Team Z but Team Y can still beat Team Z in the same season. That's why they play the game, you don't know what's going to happen until it's all said and done.
The only notable exception to this is Hours AFTER he gained the favor of all four Chaos Gods and became something that could go toe to toe with the Emperor. But this was a very special case in that Horus was not a Daemon, he was essentially possessed by the four.
I personally think that while you obviously gain great power and immortality from Daemonhood, you also get some distinct disadvantages so it isn't an autowin for Daemonic Angron. At all. I think he might have the edge but he isn't head and shoulders above Leman.
Daemons have very specific and very pronounced weaknesses. This is why a Daemon Prince Angron lost to 100 GK Terminators. They had his number, they knew his weakness. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Leman Russ could have torn all of the GK Termies in half because he's just a normal Primarch, he's a super badass and isn't weak to trivialities like 'True Names', 'Holy Weapons', 'Psychic Powers', chants, wards, ect. He would treat them like normal marines - Grass to be cut. We all know that much, I think. That's where the match up thing comes in...
But all that said Leman Russ isn't a noted Daemon killer and he didn't make a name for himself being a prepared and cautious fellow. He would probably fight Daemonic Angron toe to toe like anyone else and lose because he couldn't or wouldn't capitalize on the weaknesses that are inherent to Daemons.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/02/10 10:48:53
Based on the fluff I would have to say Angron would have the edge as BrainDeleted has said above.
However, Russ has been in the eye-of-terror (ok my interpretation I know) since he left his space wolves. In that time it is beleived that he has been hunting down his fallen bretheren and I think would have thought of / found some tools to help. Demon killer sword? Blessed Wolf Claws? A whole space hulk full of whiskey? who knows.
If he was to find Angron then I think it would be a close run match.
But as a player of space pupies I would say that wouldn't I.
He's not the messiah he's a very naughty boy. Now go AWAY!
BrainDeleted wrote:Daemons have very specific and very pronounced weaknesses. This is why a Daemon Prince Angron lost to 100 GK Terminators. They had his number, they knew his weakness. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Leman Russ could have torn all of the GK Termies in half because he's just a normal Primarch, he's a super badass and isn't weak to trivialities like 'True Names', 'Holy Weapons', 'Psychic Powers', chants, wards, ect. He would treat them like normal marines - Grass to be cut. We all know that much, I think. That's where the match up thing comes in...
But all that said Leman Russ isn't a noted Daemon killer and he didn't make a name for himself being a prepared and cautious fellow. He would probably fight Daemonic Angron toe to toe like anyone else and lose because he couldn't or wouldn't capitalize on the weaknesses that are inherent to Daemons.
In general I'd agree with this, but I'd also point out that 97 of those Terminators lost to Angron first.
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
So your statement is incorrect Bran Dawr, I always thought that statement was in regards to Valdor being the only Custodian to beat Horus 
