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'Tis a poor man's chapter that has to get it's equipment from the church instead of the Mechanicum.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:'Tis a poor man's chapter that has to get it's equipment from the church instead of the Mechanicum.

The church is rich... rich enough to outfit the Sisters with power armours, bolters, Rhinos and so on. I'm sure they can spend some coin on space marines if those marines are useful to them. The AdMech can only produce so much, after all... a chapter down on it's luck and lacking enough techmarines to produce gear may well have to take whatever they can get. And that assumes they church would just bold-facedly bribe and buy the chapter.

What if they give gifts to chapters that defend temples? Gifts for reclaiming relics? Gifts for defeating famous heretics? Do that often enough and the Ecclesiarchy might have their own allied marines... not perhaps as reliable as SoB, or as easy to direct at the enemy, but open to suggestions at least.

Spetulhu wrote:
What if they give gifts to chapters that defend temples? Gifts for reclaiming relics? Gifts for defeating famous heretics? Do that often enough and the Ecclesiarchy might have their own allied marines... not perhaps as reliable as SoB, or as easy to direct at the enemy, but open to suggestions at least.

The Astartes are likely to do these things anyway though. It's their whole thing about fighting the enemies of Man and retaking what belongs to Humanity. Sure, they might decide to be nice(r) to the Ecclessiarchy and give them relics that they're not concerned about, but these things are their job anyway.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:The Astartes are likely to do these things anyway though.

Ah ... that depends very much on the Chapter, I'd say. We cannot deny that there is a huge gap between the Imperial people's Ministorum and the isolated Chapters of the Space Marines, and that's not just due to the latter's independence and spatial distance, but also because there's a lot of disagreement on whether the Emperir is a God or just a really cool guy. Then there's some clerics who think the Space Marines are Abhumans, and some Space Marines who think all normal humans are douches that need to be put in their place, etc ...
I'd say the possibility for mutual assistance exists, but it would be far from common.

"here has been constant conflict between the Adeptus Ministorum and the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes since Fatidicus first began preaching on Terra. They are rivals in power like any Imperial Organisations, but more importantly, their beliefs differ at a very fundamental level. In particular, there is a schism in the clergies thinking concerning the Space Marines. On the one hand the Space Marines, above all others, can truly be called the children of the Emperor. They are wholly his creation and even contain elements of his own genetic structure. They are the founders of the Imperium, and supreme defenders of humanity. The Space Marines are unswervingly loyal to the Emperor and would die in the defence of his honour and the Imperium.

However, the Space Marine Chapters do not adhere to the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy. Their beliefs vary wildly from chapter to chapter, worshipping the Emperor and their Primarchs to different degrees. In many ways they are heretics with their own traditions, ceremonies and beliefs, some of which are very barbaric, compared to the well-ordered masses of the Ecclesiarchy. Most Space Marines worship the Emperor as a great, gifted man, but do not consider him a god in the same sense that is preached by the Ecclesiarchy. His blood runs through their veins and he is considered the ultimate example of mankind, but he is a man nonetheless. Also it is a matter of debate whether the Space Marines are truly human at all. Their genetically engineered bodies are far superior to a normal human, enough to make them a separate race if one wished to interpret their differences so. How can any self-respecting Confessor or Cardinal relate to a monstrous giant who can spit acid, crush a mans skull with one hand and practises crude acts of blood sacrifice?

An uneasy compromise has been reached over the Millennia, which can be summed up as an agreement to differ. The Ecclesiarchy does not send Confessors and Missionaries to the Space marine worlds and the chapters of the Adeptus Astartes do not interfere with the Adeptus Ministorum. Space Marine Chaplains are given their precious Rosarius by the Ecclesiarchy as a symbolic link between the two organisations, but the Chaplains still preach their own version of the Imperial Creed to their brethren.
This uneasy truce has been shattered at times when a particularly zealous Cardinal or Confessor has roused the ire of the Space Marine Chapters with his words or deeds. These feuds are usually resolved quickly, though not always without bloodshed, and the relative peace between the two organisations returns."
- 2E C:SoB

"[...] Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. [...]"
- excerpt from a report of Canoness Carmina from GW's Armageddon 3 campaign website

Lynata wrote:Ah ... that depends very much on the Chapter, I'd say. We cannot deny that there is a huge gap between the Imperial people's Ministorum and the isolated Chapters of the Space Marines, and that's not just due to the latter's independence and spatial distance, but also because there's a lot of disagreement on whether the Emperir is a God or just a really cool guy. Then there's some clerics who think the Space Marines are Abhumans, and some Space Marines who think all normal humans are douches that need to be put in their place, etc ...
I'd say the possibility for mutual assistance exists, but it would be far from common.

Really though, any Astartes Chapter should be willing to defend a Shrine World. Regardless of whether or not they're on good terms, those are Humans and Imperial subjects being attacked by a rebel or xeno or Daemonic (or I guess just a Human empire that was never a part of the Imperium) force. The Astartes might treat those on the planet with contempt, but I'd imagine they'd still be keen on crushing the attackers. The relics that the Ecclessiarchy are interested in would probably so not interest an Astartes Chapter, so I guess they're more likely to be ignored than anything, but I'd assume they wouldn't find it worth the bother of keeping a religious artifact just to annoy the Ecclessiarchy. Heretics are a subversive force to the Imperium. The Astartes might not prioritise them (unless they're leading an army or something), but if they're along the way and the local government can't handle them they might drop in to say hi.

I'd imagine that very few if any Chapters would intentionally antagonise the Ecclessiarchy just because they can. Taking affront to their independence or whatever is one thing, but them abandoning Imperial citizens just because there's a temple there seems to go against their general creed of crushing the enemies of the Imperium.

Maybe I'm just reading this wrong.

I could see the Marines Malevolent doing it. The Ecclessiarchy is run by "mere" mortals, which they hate.

But then, that is just speculation.

Well, they'd be more likely to bomb the citizens along with the xenos/traitors.

Aye, it all depends on how much the individual Chapter truly sees itself as being bonded to Imperial defense.

There was a battle plot in the 3E WH Codex regarding this:
"Many Space Marine Chapters are notoriously independent and often follow their own agendas with little or no recourse to Imperial policy. One such Chapter has refused to give aid when requested, resulting in the loss of a strategically vital world, and the Ordo Hereticus resolve to bring the Chapter Master to justice."

A bit of fluff about the aforementioned Marines Malevolent, since they were brought up as an example: http://web.archive.org/web/20021005045112/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/malevolent.html

Indeed, that is the passage I had in mind when I brought them up.

Man, I love the Marines Malevolent, if one is ever shown without a helmet he better have a twisted, Dick Dastardly-esque mustache.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: Really though, any Astartes Chapter should be willing to defend a Shrine World. Regardless of whether or not they're on good terms, those are Humans and Imperial subjects being attacked by a rebel or xeno or Daemonic (or I guess just a Human empire that was never a part of the Imperium) force.

It all depends. I mean, on simple math alone, if an engagement risks the death of a dozen or so battle-brothers, then it is better value for the Imperium as a whole to let the population die, and let the IG reclaim the planet later.

Not really. A chapter wouldn't shy away from war on the risk of losing a dozen men. War is their job. It's not like they've got something else to do.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not really. A chapter wouldn't shy away from war on the risk of losing a dozen men. War is their job. It's not like they've got something else to do.

Yeah, but the ratio of civilians to marines in the Imperium means that theres almost always a higher value conflict they could be fighting somewhere else. If civilians outnumber marines by, say, a million to one, then losing a single marine is only worth it if it saves more than one million civilians.

As a marine commander, you'd be looking at all available options and saying "At conflict 1 we estimate losses at 30 men, and could save 2bn civilians. Or at conflict 2 we risk losing 40 men, and could save 6bn civilians."

Lynata wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:The Astartes are likely to do these things anyway though.

Ah ... that depends very much on the Chapter, I'd say. We cannot deny that there is a huge gap between the Imperial people's Ministorum and the isolated Chapters of the Space Marines, and that's not just due to the latter's independence and spatial distance, but also because there's a lot of disagreement on whether the Emperir is a God or just a really cool guy. Then there's some clerics who think the Space Marines are Abhumans, and some Space Marines who think all normal humans are douches that need to be put in their place, etc ...
I'd say the possibility for mutual assistance exists, but it would be far from common.

"here has been constant conflict between the Adeptus Ministorum and the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes since Fatidicus first began preaching on Terra. They are rivals in power like any Imperial Organisations, but more importantly, their beliefs differ at a very fundamental level. In particular, there is a schism in the clergies thinking concerning the Space Marines. On the one hand the Space Marines, above all others, can truly be called the children of the Emperor. They are wholly his creation and even contain elements of his own genetic structure. They are the founders of the Imperium, and supreme defenders of humanity. The Space Marines are unswervingly loyal to the Emperor and would die in the defence of his honour and the Imperium.

However, the Space Marine Chapters do not adhere to the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy. Their beliefs vary wildly from chapter to chapter,
worshipping the Emperor and their Primarchs to different degrees. In many ways they are heretics with their own traditions, ceremonies and beliefs, some of which are very barbaric, compared to the well-ordered masses of the Ecclesiarchy. Most Space Marines worship the Emperor as a great, gifted man, but do not consider him a god in the same sense that is preached by the Ecclesiarchy. His blood runs through their veins and he is considered the ultimate example of mankind, but he is a man nonetheless. Also it is a matter of debate whether the Space Marines are truly human at all. Their genetically engineered bodies are far superior to a normal human, enough to make them a separate race if one wished to interpret their differences so. How can any self-respecting Confessor or Cardinal relate to a monstrous giant who can spit acid, crush a mans skull with one hand and practises crude acts of blood sacrifice

An uneasy compromise has been reached over the Millennia, which can be summed up as an agreement to differ. The Ecclesiarchy does not send Confessors and Missionaries to the Space marine worlds and the chapters of the Adeptus Astartes do not interfere with the Adeptus Ministorum. Space Marine Chaplains are given their precious Rosarius by the Ecclesiarchy as a symbolic link between the two organisations, but the Chaplains still preach their own version of the Imperial Creed to their brethren.
This uneasy truce has been shattered at times when a particularly zealous Cardinal or Confessor has roused the ire of the Space Marine Chapters with his words or deeds. These feuds are usually resolved quickly, though not always without bloodshed, and the relative peace between the two organisations returns."
- 2E C:SoB

"[...] Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. [...]"
- excerpt from a report of Canoness Carmina from GW's Armageddon 3 campaign website

Basically, it boils down to: we were here first. Which is true, and the Emperor did tell them not to worship Him, though it's not tactful to say so. The Ultramarines remember this best of all (Monarchia, anyone?)

Kaldor wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not really. A chapter wouldn't shy away from war on the risk of losing a dozen men. War is their job. It's not like they've got something else to do.

Yeah, but the ratio of civilians to marines in the Imperium means that theres almost always a higher value conflict they could be fighting somewhere else. If civilians outnumber marines by, say, a million to one, then losing a single marine is only worth it if it saves more than one million civilians.

As a marine commander, you'd be looking at all available options and saying "At conflict 1 we estimate losses at 30 men, and could save 2bn civilians. Or at conflict 2 we risk losing 40 men, and could save 6bn civilians."

Rarely does a chapter master sit around computating like that. You have to inderstand their mind set. Like most soldiers they want to fight and hate sitting around but they are like that x100. They are living weapons and consider every minute they are not fighting a waste of time and resources. They're always spoiling for a fight.
Pretty much the only time they would start fretting like that is when battle losses have been so high that chapter extinction is a concern. Even then when the life of an entire planet is at stake many can not help themselves even if turning a blind eye would be more strategically sound.

They could be busy planning their own campaigns, though, not appreciating someone calling them and basically being like "yeah, we're real sorry you'd have to cancel your trip, but you're needed over here".

Otherwise, the above-quoted part wouldn't be in the WH Codex.

Yes, of course they usually have several things on the go at a time and I admit I wouldn't prioritize a shrine world over a forge world but quite frankly some may. There are many Imperials that believe faith, not guns win wars.

Ah, personally I'd definitely think that a Forge World is more important than a Shrine World, and I daresay even the High Lords and the Inquisition would agree, probably much to the detriment of the Ecclesiarchy. But I was thinking more about the Marines' own crusades and stuff - they do seem to be going out on their own quests from time to time, at least a number of Chapters.

"So many heretics to kill, so little time" often laments the chapter master.

Lynata wrote:Ah, personally I'd definitely think that a Forge World is more important than a Shrine World, and I daresay even the High Lords and the Inquisition would agree, probably much to the detriment of the Ecclesiarchy. But I was thinking more about the Marines' own crusades and stuff - they do seem to be going out on their own quests from time to time, at least a number of Chapters.

Case in point: the 13th Black Crusade. Although it pissed the Ecclesiarchy off, the Inquisition supported the Astartes Chapters not assisting the Sororitas in putting down heretical cults as they were all rushing to the Eye of Terror.

The Ecclesiarchy is so full of gak when it comes to its military decisions... poor Sisters.

Faith wins wars, not bolters! ....so I'm told anyway.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Well, they'd be more likely to bomb the citizens along with the xenos/traitors.

Fair point.

Lynata wrote:Aye, it all depends on how much the individual Chapter truly sees itself as being bonded to Imperial defense.

You'd assume that it would be fighting or recovering though. I don't really see Astartes just sitting back and doing nothing wholly to prove a point. They strike me as too keen to kill.

Kaldor wrote:It all depends. I mean, on simple math alone, if an engagement risks the death of a dozen or so battle-brothers, then it is better value for the Imperium as a whole to let the population die, and let the IG reclaim the planet later.

Depends on the resources lost, and I don't think the Astartes themselves will generally think of it like that. Even the Marines Malevolent seem more likely to engage but just use fairly indiscriminate bombardment.

The death of a dozen or so battle brothers is nothing compared to the loss of an entire planet's production. Especially agg-worlds. The Imperium would sacrifice an entire chapter to save an agg-world. Forgeworlds are pretty high up there too, as are hive worlds.

Melissia wrote:The death of a dozen or so battle brothers is nothing compared to the loss of an entire planet's production. Especially agri-worlds. The Imperium would sacrifice an entire chapter to save an agri-world. Forgeworlds are pretty high up there too, as are hive worlds.

Space Marine Chapters are far rarer than planets, whether a Chapter would be willing to do so is up to them and their own doctrine/code of honour and so forth, but most Chapters would certainly spend a few companies' worth of Space Marines to save an agri-worlds, hive-worlds and forge-worlds. An entire Chapter for one world? Maybe some of the more philanthropic Chapters or the Chapters with a guilt complex that want to make up for their past screw-ups, but I dunno if your average Chapter would see that as a good deal. Some wouldn't bother with the defending and just kill the aggressors instead. And usually a few Imperial Guard regiments would be sent in to be sacrificed first, but for when they can't get there fast enough, I see what you mean. It also depends on how much is left to save and all that, but overall, they wouldn't shy away from committing over the loss of a dozen marines - a cynical way of looking at it is to say Astartes are created to die in battle and that their deaths are exchanged for the prolonged life of the Imperium - but they will not usually commit to the point of annihilation unless they have a very, very, very good reason for doing so. Most worlds are dime a dozen compared to Space Marine Chapters - only a relatively small percentage of production facilities would be worth losing an entire chapter over (like the Forge Worlds that can build Vortex Grenades or Imperator Titans or something).

GoldenKaos wrote:And usually a few Imperial Guard regiments would be sent in to be sacrificed first, but for when they can't get there fast enough [...]

i.e. always?

I noticed that a number of people assume that the Imperial populace would see the Imperial Guard a lot more than the Space Marines, simply due to the latter being more rare. Yet, at least going by the Codex material, it's actually the other way around. The Imperial Guard is way too slow to get there in time, so the first offworld Imperial force to answer a distress signal is almost always a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes. The Imperial Guard is a ponderous hammer reserved for the major campaigns, for fighting the big wars, for when - get this - the Space Marines aren't powerful enough to get the job done.

Props to the Guard.

Makes you wonder why some Chapters may disregard a request for aid, though. Perhaps it's a simple matter of politics? We know that many Marines are at least as vulnerable to pride and arrogance as normal humans, so it could simply be the Chapter Master being on a bad relationship with some Inquisitor or the local Ecclesiarchy officials. For example, we know of a number of armed skirmishes between Space Marines and forces of the Church, and it'd not be out of the question to assume that said Marines may simply show them the finger when their world happens to come under attack, basically regarding their pride as more important than the lives of countless innocent civilians who had nothing to do with the squabble between their higher-ups.

On the subject of the Decree Passive, it requires the Ministorum to have "no men under arms." Which is the loophole allowing the SoB, however there is no reason that could not be stretched to allow an SM chapter to be under their command, after all depending on your definition of "man" Astartes might not actually count.

That said I think it would be a very easy topic to do poorly, and quite hard to write well and believably.

GoldenKaos wrote:Space Marine Chapters are far rarer than planets

And far, FAR less valuable.

Every year, hive worlds, agg worlds, and forge wrolds produce more in tithes and economic benefit to the Imperium than any single Marine is worth. More than most companies of marines are worth even. Over a century or a millennium of production? A Marine chapter is nothing compared to a forge world's total unhindered production across a thousand years.

Most marines only live a few hundred years at best. Planets last longer and benefit the Imperium more to boot.

Panopticon wrote:On the subject of the Decree Passive, it requires the Ministorum to have "no men under arms." Which is the loophole allowing the SoB, however there is no reason that could not be stretched to allow an SM chapter to be under their command, after all depending on your definition of "man" Astartes might not actually count.

That said I think it would be a very easy topic to do poorly, and quite hard to write well and believably.

Maybe if you wrote about he chapter's subsequent destruction at the hands of the Inquisition, and the "silencing" or execution of the Ecclesiarchy officials involved...

Melissia wrote:

GoldenKaos wrote:Space Marine Chapters are far rarer than planets

And far, FAR less valuable.

Every year, hive worlds, agg worlds, and forge wrolds produce more in tithes and economic benefit to the Imperium than any single Marine is worth. More than most companies of marines are worth even. Over a century or a millennium of production? A Marine chapter is nothing compared to a forge world's total unhindered production across a thousand years.

Yeah, that's why the IoM just don't go nuking all the orks off of a planet. They need the planets ecosystem to create a working colony and therefore to increase production.

Melissia wrote:

GoldenKaos wrote:Space Marine Chapters are far rarer than planets

And far, FAR less valuable.

Every year, hive worlds, agg worlds, and forge wrolds produce more in tithes and economic benefit to the Imperium than any single Marine is worth. More than most companies of marines are worth even. Over a century or a millennium of production? A Marine chapter is nothing compared to a forge world's total unhindered production across a thousand years.

Only to a point, though. If you spend too many resources protecting a certain area of space, then you will be unable to adequately protect the rest of your territories.

It's like when I'm playing Total War. My territories are much more important than my individual armies. I don't care if a stack of troops is destroyed, I can always create more. HOWEVER, if the wrong stack is destroyed at the wrong time, it can lead to the loss of entire continents as I struggle to replace them. So you have to be very careful.

I think this stuff is sadly ignored in most of the BL books. The political and strategic priorities are often left by the wayside in favour of war porn.

I think we need to keep in mind that not all planets of the Imperium are actually of strategical/economical importance, too. There's bound to be loads of small scale colonies whose value is at least questionable when compared to a Space Marine Chapter or even the resources required to set the Imperial Guard into motion.
You know, those worlds who are only tithed a few hundred soldiers instead of several thousand per regiment.

I think Dark Heresy has a good example for this - I vaguely recall a desert world which was only popular because of some small shrine, yet said shrine gave it sector-wide importance in the eyes of the people and the Ecclesiarchy. Would a Space Marine Chapter move out to defend such a dustball? The ones committed to duty, of course. But as we know there are a number of Chapters who see themselves a little more independent from the IoM.

Kaldor wrote:Only to a point, though.

A hive city produces enough Imperial Guard soldiers AND equipment every year that each year it provides the Imperium easily more military power than an entire company of Astartes.

That "up to a point" is at the tip of an extremely long spear, which itself is at the tip of an Imperial Battleship, which itself is at the tip of an Imperial Navy formation of battleships.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For reference:

Goign by the world average population growth rate (that is, birth rate minus death rate; a hive world's would actually have a higher population growth rate.) of 1.17. Hive worlds have hundreds of billions of not trillions of people. Thus the population of a world with 100,000,000,000 people, assuming a relatively low 1.17% yearly increase, woudl see a population increase of ~1,170,000,000 every year. Hive worlds tithe guardsmen as their taxes, which means that they tithe at minimum millions, and likely billions, of guardsmen every year.

Let that sink in for a moment. This isn't per century or even per decade. This is per year. Hive cities also usually manufacture the equipment these guardsmen use on the battle as well, using their huge populations for mass production of goods. Some hive worlds likely produce more than many forgeworlds do, albeit less complex goods (only forgeworlds produce titans for example; a hiveworld is more likely to produce flak armor, lasguns, and so on, along with common vehicles like the Chimera and the Leman Russ).


Every year, a hive city ships out enough military power to destroy an entire space marine chapter.

And people wonder how the hell the Imperium holds off the Tyranids. Seriously people, just look at the statistics. The Imperium has unbelievable amounts of military force at its disposal. The main reason the Tyranids get so far is cause they're hard to detect. The Imperium can match or exceed the Tyranids in terms of military force.


edit: Yeah. GW and its inability to comprehend its own statistics annoys me.