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Having character-level slayers with built-in Multiple Wounds (d3) would fit the fluff and the concept, and not be as gamebreaking as HKB.

Matt, when you say "as they are now", do you mean as they appear in the book, or as I have offered as an alternative?

I don't think Slayers are bad, by the way. They're nearly as good as Hammerers, which may very well be under priced. I just don't like Slayers in rank-and-file formation, being used as speed bumps and arrow-sponges.

Sorry mate, I never said your ideas your silly, I do apoligise if I came across like that. I just think the whole concept of changing the dwarf book is silly. I like how you've come up with your own "Book" of sorts and took the time to make rules and point values. Trust me mate, I don't think your ideas are stupid in the slightest. All I'm saying is that, the dwarf book should just stay the same .

Yea and Slayers with KB or HKB is a bit of pipe dream but theres nothing wrong with dreaming!

actually the idea of giving the characters HKB (deamon slayer only) is pretty good, they have what... 4 attacks, say 1 attack with HKB OR 4 normal, the HKB attack does not benefit from runes, simple and not broken

You gotta be kidding.

Sorry that's a short reply, but it would be absurdly OP.

a single str 5 HKB with no runes, no re-rolls... nowt, OR 4 rune encrusted str 8 flaming +1 to hit, which do you think is worse vs monsters

@Poppabear: It's all good. Sorry about the harshness.
I really do like the feel of the Dwarfs. And they're pretty damn good too. It's just, I know several people who've been stoic Dwarf players for many years, and they've all wandered away from the army, or the game, because there's so little you can do with the list. To be good tactically or thematically, Dwarfs need very little. To be as consistently popular as other armies, I'd say they need some stuff.

@Duke: Gotta agree with Formosa on this one. The Vampires get a power that's like this but better, and it costs, what, 15pts?

@Formosa: Yeah, that's the thing, though. I can't see anyone ever using it. Their Strength gets bumped to match their opponent's Toughness, and with the rules I've set up, that's before weapon bonuses (it makes great weapons and extra hand weapons even, considering the Initiative thing).

Oh, I didn't see you say just 1 HKB.

In any case, they can only buff their Str. to 6 via their Slayer-ness. They can get runes. But runes are messed-up. And they're naked. So indeed they might be scary, but they're wearing a toga fighting a Thunderstomper.

I just think in this age of Monsters Suck 8th, the world doesn't need any more HKB or mega multi-wounds.


You should see (if you haven't) all the crazy rules they had to give to Tamurkhan and his mount just to make him scary and epic. Because nothing ruins a potential 3 month campaign like someone making a cannon gunline or IFing some lvl 6 and then going, "so what do you want to play now?"

Strength 8 with a great weapon, with the current stuff I've got here, and no more Runes.

Even with all that, though, a Daemon/Dragon Slayer is basically doomed against any kind of monster, on his own. And that's kind of what they should be capable of doing.
I agree that Warhammer doesn't need any more anti-monster stuff, but...eh. They should be Awesome. Slayer characters should be some of the most absolutely bad-ass combat characters out there. The idea that they still get to attack in the turn they're killed helps a lot; they always get a chance to do something. But maybe they do indeed need more. Maybe something straightforward, like a higher WS, S, T, or A?

actually, always getting to attack even if killed is a very good idea, this fufills the slayer theme pretty well, taken down by a worthy oponent and gaining an honourable death, killing his oponent in the process, and it would encourage you to throw your slayers at he nastiest monsters around... which is what your suposed to do

That was actual an upgrade in the Storm of Chaos slayer list for slayer characters. Something like 10 points, and got to swing a new set of attacks as soon as the character was slain.

One other thing that might help slayers a bit would be a toned-down rune of Grungi, i.e. a 5+ ward against shooting. It would be Only available on slayer standards, and would only help the unit that it's in, but it would make slayers more likely to Make it to combat. It fits the fluff, since an arrow to the face isn't an honorable death, and it fixes the "getting there" problem vs. anything with shooting.

Like this, posted on the first page?

Runic Tattoos- a model with this special rule has a 5+ Ward save and Magic Resistance (3). Against war beasts, monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, monsters, and unique type units, this Ward save decreases to a 6+.

My only issue is that the "except against these units" part gets a little awkward. I've considered changing it to a reverse Blessing; 5+ Ward against S4 and less, 6+ against S5 and up. That would also affect the "Glorious Death" special rule.
Or maybe drop the 6+ all together and/or increase the 5+ to a 4+.

@Red_Zeke: I knew that I got the idea from somewhere. It was a decent set of rules. I really liked getting Victory Points when they die, but that might be a step too far, or too complicated, or both.

See, my problem with that is that It's counter to fluff for them to try and survive in any way besides trying to kill whatever it is that's killing them. I like the fact that they're unprotected in combat entirely. What about making it a 5+ ward MR 3 out of combat? That drops all of the weirdness with the blessing-style ward and the unit types entirely. That combined with the " I strike even if I die" rules from Storm of Chaos would solve all of the problems that i think we all agree are present with Slayers.

I agree. Slayers are clearly meant to be glass cannons. Giving them a catch-all ward save, that's as good as Daemons, with a 4 Tougness, suddenly changes them quite a bit.

One issue of course is that Slayers simply aren't needed. They are kind of meant to kill, like their name suggests, trolls/giants/daemons. But the amount of monsters running around that you could throw them against and use their special abilities, has dwindled. And regular GW Dwarfs can cover a lot of the same areas without being as vulnerable.

If you ever did see a Giant or Stegaddon or such, it might be an idea to throw one rank of Slayers against it for some quick hits. But they're going to get mashed by Thunderstomp.

Hmm, if you said that Slayers were immune to Stomp and Thunderstomp, it would fit with their fluff and might just make them useable as-is.

Give Slayers Vanguard, or allow them to be Rangers. They can't wait to get stuck in, so they don't wait for anyone else. That way they don't get shot to hell, and get a bit more useful.

What about Ironbreakers? Don't see them used much...

Son_Of _Deddog wrote:
What about Ironbreakers? Don't see them used much...

Problem about Ironbreakers is that they are good for holding up units, and thats pretty much it. Similar to Hand Weapon and Shield Dwarfs, they can tie up guys but miss out on a lot of killing power

ok another mad idea.... gromril is a 3+ save standard, this would make ironbreakers the best non cav armour unit in the game, simple.

or use the idea i had earlier in the thread just for ironbreakers (the shield spear idea), but without the 3+ save lol that would be op

If anyone's hesitant to open my document, let me know; I'll post it in pieces or something.
At this point, if someone's going to suggest a change, I'd appreciate recognition of what I've put forth and a reason why such is too good/not good enough.

- On Slayers: Slayers are supposed to die, I know, but I think it's silly to say that a little protection goes against all they are. I mean, they're out to die in the messiest way they can, but they want to do some good along the way. That's why they don't just jump down mine shafts. A 6+ Ward isn't going to save you from a Monster, but if it keeps one alive to swing in the next round/hold up that monster for another phase, I don't think it's unreasonable.
Of course, I was considering the Ward being good against missile-type effects only as well, but I think InnerLight's wording works better.
Duke, that is a simpler option, to be sure, but I really think that Slayers should be awesome, and something that the Dwarf book doesn't have five alternatives to already.
And SonofDeddog, that's a pretty solid idea, actually. It makes even more sense, because Slayers aren't formally part of an army. Still, I'm not sure if I'd add any more rules to them currently, and I don't think it's more fitting than the others posted so far. Further comments would be appreciated.

So how about:

Runic Tattoos: a model with this special rule has Magic Resistance (3) and a 4+ Ward save, except against wounds caused by close combat attacks.

My only question then is, how can I streamline the Glorious Death rule, what with the unit-type restrictions? Maybe just change it to "units that contain models with S5 or more", or "units that contain models with the Stomp or Thunderstomp special rules"?

- On Ironbreakers: I've got this so far.

Gromil Armour: armour made from the metal known as gromil is the toughest and sturdiest in the known world. Known variously as meteoric iron, Silverstone and hammernought, gromil armour is worn by the finest (or wealthiest) of the Dwarf throng.
Gromil armour grants a 4+ armour save, while gromil shields grant a 5+.

This makes Ironbreakers better, but it only makes characters better if you buy the (more expensive) shield upgrade.

Ironbreakers 15pts
Ironbreaker M3 WS5 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld9
Ironbeard M3 WS5 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I2 A3 Ld9
Equipment: hand weapon, gromil armour and shield
• Upgrade one Ironbreaker to a Musician +7pts
• Upgrade one Ironbreaker to a Standard Bearer +14pts
• Upgrade one Ironbreaker to an Ironbeard +14pts
• Magic standard up to 50pts
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Immune to Psychology, Resolute, Relentless, Shield Wall, Stubborn

What do you think? They're way more expensive, but the story behind them leads us to believe they're the most reliable, bad ass, and morbidly stoic dwarfs around. They've got 2 attacks--a trait that I think would be well appreciated in the Dwarf battle line, and they're super tough, with a 2+/6+ and Stubborn.
They lose most fights to their equivalents--Hammerers, White Lions, Sword Masters, Phoenix/Black/Temple/Tomb/Grave Guard, and they kill less, compared to their casualties, than hammerers against most units.
But they can hold up a unit longer than any of them while dishing out some damage as they wait for the great weapons to hit home.

I think both units are different enough to be interesting, good enough to see play, and, if anything, a little too "jack-of-all-trades"y to be considered over powered.