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I Think they should stay close to what was used in Storm of Magic.

Each runesmith can buy 1 rune they can strike (Rune lord can get 2) and Anvil Knows all and removes range requirements.

To cast they can roll 1-6 dice and it affects number of units in range of target. Same as storm of Magic.

25pts- Rune of Force - +1 S Aug
25 pts- Rune of Earth - scaley skin Aug
25- Rune of ancesteral disdain - d6 s4 hits
50 pts Rune of Tectonic anger- - d3 M and I and move as dangerous terrain Hex.

And so on.

Stuff like that Make the Miscast Chart(Anvil would be immune to 1st miscast each turn) and could strike 2 runes)

1-Remove from Play
2 s5 hit on every model with a runic item in army
3 Unable to act until next casters next magic phase
4 s6 hit on every model in b2b
5 s6 hit on user
6 Runic Item destroyed- (Ant Magic stuff would be on same runic item)

Dwarfs... boring... PAH!

I picked Dwarfs because I thought they were the least boring.

And shield warriors are "OK" I always stick a block of 32-40 of them in tournaments with a challenge thane (most of the time) and they seem to do just fine at holding big killy units up

The...least...boring.

They have 25% of the possible unit types in Warhammer, and only participate in 75% of the game, 25% of that--Movement--most people forswear anyway.

And shield-Warriors are indeed okay. But you know what's better? Great weapon Warriors. They die a little faster (less armour) and kill faster (more wounds and bigger armour penalties). In every match up, the stunties with big axes do better than the stunties with little axes.
Occasionally--occasionally--they hold for an extra turn, since they're more durable and slightly cheaper. Sometimes, I'll field a small unit to get on the flanks. But you're better off with bigger axes 99 times out of 100. I wish that were an exaggeration, but it's not.

I like the Storm of Magic concepts for Runes, by the way. I'll be putting stuff up soon.

Also:

- I've compared 15pt Stubborn Ironbreakers with two attacks to Temple Guard, Chaos Warriors, White Lions, and Black Orcs/Bigguns. I think they're pretty comparable. Even though it's not a reliable way to judge a unit in an army, I've got to start somewhere--I'll look at the whole list when I've got some basic ideas laid out.

- No golems. Too magic-y for Dwarfs. Chaos Dwarfs? Sure. But not the reg'lar types.

CD indeed have a magic-infused and created MI. They are called K'daai. Kind of stuffing a Daemon into a metal form. I don't like them cuz they are expensive and they have to (on 2nd turn onward) take a T test or take D3 W in the unit, and each only has 2 W. So they can basically all start blowing up.

Yuck. Do...do they at least blow other stuff up too?

No. I mean if you're in CC with them you take an auto Str 4 hit cuz they're burning. Kind of a flaming pre-Stomp. And they got a good ward but they are very pricey. The big thing is they die, which has no saves of any kind if they fail.

It's what I said in that TK thread. CD (and Dwarfs) aren't meant to be super elite. So their Monstrous Infantry isn't that good. Not like Ogre good. Cuz they aren't Ogres.

Except...ogres are plain ol' monstrous Infantry, except sometimes they cause Impact Hits.
But yes, I agree with you on Dwarfs being a middle-of-the-road sort of army. I think I can keep that intact, even with 15pt Ironbreakers and 18pt Slayers. The rest is pretty much as it was.

No, Dwarfs Should not have magic at all, why do you guys insist they have magic. Whats wrong with the rune system they have now? What, is everyone up set that are generals can't blow them selves up or something???

I've enjoyed playing Dwarfs for years, If GW decides to add magic because people on some forums start to QQ. It will just ruin the the whole army for me :(.

Poppabear wrote:No, Dwarfs Should not have magic at all, why do you guys insist they have magic. Whats wrong with the rune system they have now? What, is everyone up set that are generals can't blow them selves up or something???

I've enjoyed playing Dwarfs for years, If GW decides to add magic because people on some forums start to QQ. It will just ruin the the whole army for me :(.

1) Dwarfs have more magic than almost any other army. 150-125 on lords, 75 on heroes, tons of magic banners and warmachines. Many of the items other armies carry are all made by dwarfs. Let's not forget the anvil, which in previous books gave dwarfs a magic phase.
2) Rune system now is complicated. New books are streamlining special rules and items down to ~10 or so.
Many of the rune combos are far worse than the current list of common magic items, so you've got a giant list, of which very few get used.

As for magic ruining your army, did you play at all in 6th edition when the anvil gave you power dice and spells?

-Matt

Yes I did, but that's the closet I want to get to magic with me dwarfs.

There are two issues here:

1. Dwarfs are limited.
As I said in my first post, if you like the bang-bang-chop-chop that is Dwarfs, that's fine. I appreciate it, too. But I also see an army that has literally two styles of play, and think it could use some more options.
You want to keep up the bang-chop rhythm? Go ahead. If somehow this FanDex were released as a new book, it would still let you field the same lists as before, more or less.

2. Having magic and antimagic can't really be balanced by getting rid of the first to enhance the other. The same goes for Runes. As Duke and others have said over several threads, the trend toward a few magic items per army with a wide Common Magic Item list is definitely where it's at. It's flexible and fun, but much easier to keep track of.
I promise, the Dwarf spells will all have relatively low casting values; steady but minor effects, generally. Also thinking about making the Attribute the ability to modify a Miscast by 1 or 2, to represent the fact that Dwarfs don't tap into the Winds themselves, but set up runes to do it. Sort of like pseudo bound spells. It won't come up often, but I think it'll make Dwarf players feel good.

Also:


Blasting Charges: Miners use barrels of blackpowder with pitch-soaked fuses to carve their way through raw stone, and often carry such charges to battle as well. Miners equipped with these munitions cause controlled cave-ins on the field, emerging where the enemy is vulnerable—sometimes right under their feet.
A unit with this item is not deployed normally. Instead, the controlling player places a marker anywhere on the map, and rolls on the Underground Advance table at the beginning of each of their turns. If the unit arrives, place the small round template over the marker and scatter it as you would a shot from a stone thrower. Any model touched by the template takes a S4 hit. Place a piece of Dangerous Terrain where the template landed, 3” in diameter, and the unit within 1” of the template. The unit may then act normally, including to declare a charge. If a Misfire is rolled on the artillery die, something has gone wrong. Roll on the table below:

d6 Result
1 Cave-in!
Every model in the unit must make a Strength check, or be removed as a casualty, with no saves allowed.
2-3 I said left at the last fork!
The unit cannot act this turn.
4-5 I said right at the last fork!
The opposing player may place the template anywhere on the table. Scatter it again, ignoring further Misfires.
6 Too much powder!
Place the large round template over the marker. Every model touched by the template—and every model in the unit with Blasting Charges—takes a Strength 5 hit.

Zeppelin 80pts
Zeppelin M0 WS0 BS0 S0 T5 W3 I0 A0 Ld0
Engineer M3 WS3 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Equipment: hand weapon
• Upgrade to Gyrocopter +20pts
• Gromil plating +20pts
• Steam gun +20pts
• Thundercasks +25pts
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Armour Save (5+), Flying Cavalry, Hover, Scout, Swiftstride

Thundercasks: Engineers understand demolitions on a remarkable level, and their zeppelins are usually well-laden with small iron-ringed barrels filled with pressurized tar and blackpowder, ready to be ignited and dropped onto the hapless foes below.
A model with this item gains a shooting attack. During the movement phase, place a marker at any point along the Zeppelin’s move. During the shooting phase, scatter the template as a stone thrower. Any model touched takes a S3 Armour Piercing hit, while a model under the center hole takes a Strength 9 hit with the multiple wounds (d3) special rule. A unit that takes one or more casualties from a thundercask must take a Panic test. If a Misfire is rolled, consult the table below. Zeppelins and Gyrocopters are immune to the effects of their own Thundercasks, except for Misfires.

d6 Result
1 Ka-Boom!
The bomb detonates while still on board, igniting several more along the way. The Zeppelin takes d6 S5 hits.
2-4 Short Fuse
The Thundercask detonates harmlessly in the air.
5 A Dud?
Any model at the center of the template takes a single S9 hit. Place a marker at the center of the template. Roll a d6 at the start of each player’s turn. On a 6+, the bomb detonates as per a successful shot.
6 Oops!
The Engineer dropped a few extra Thundercasks as well. Resolve d3-1 more shots, ignoring further Misfire! or Hit! results.

the theme of dwarfs is very nordic i agree, there warfare is more roman-greek though.

look past the lack of spears, they have powerful war machines backing up well organised and diciplined troops, and use specialists (handgunners, rangers etc) and march foward in a shield wall, Nordic armies are more along the like of beastmen in how they play, ill organised troops (appart from the monsters) backed up by the more powerful elements of the tribes, and a complete lack of warmachines.

but as a game designer said, no faction is any one thing from history, but a mash of many historical elements.

Now back to spears, I for one cannot understand why we dont have them, they are in the fluff, the ironbreakers use them, so i would like to see a unit like this.

front rank are all giant shields (with a slot to see through) the folling ranks are spears.
how it would work.
front rank get HW/S bonus, following ranks get the spear. simples

I think you're thinking more along the lines of "Viking Berserkers" rather than straight-up Nordic tactics.
Shield walls and missile weapons were the bread-and-butter of formal Nordic battles.

It's not a bad idea, the option for spears. Maybe offer it to Warriors/Quarrelers/Thunderers/Ironbreakers for 1pt/model?
I really want to avoid making a new Infantry unit. They've got enough of those.

I wouldnt mind Spears. Or even better, pikes!

Warpsolution wrote:I think you're thinking more along the lines of "Viking Berserkers" rather than straight-up Nordic tactics.
Shield walls and missile weapons were the bread-and-butter of formal Nordic battles.

It's not a bad idea, the option for spears. Maybe offer it to Warriors/Quarrelers/Thunderers/Ironbreakers for 1pt/model?
I really want to avoid making a new Infantry unit. They've got enough of those.

im thinking stereotypes, as that is normally what goes through people heads when thinking of certain things from history.

dont know if i said on this thread, somethin i would like to see dwarfs get is Golems, a rare MI unit of rune powered walking ancester gods... twould be cool

As far as tactical inspirations go, Games Workshop is actually pretty accurate in the details; it's the big picture they warp into something fantasy-esque.

And there has been golem-talk. 8 posts above. I say no. It's too In-Your-Face magical for the Dwarfs of the Warhammer world. Chaos Dwarfs are Gothic-Victorian Steampunk--daemons and brass and gears, lots of big flashy stuff. Regular Dwarfs more mundane.

On that note, I'd like to say that the whole "Dwarfs don't use wood unless they absolutely have to" concept is silly. An iron-hafted scorpion bolt? Standard-pole? A steel pipe? No.

I really dont like giving the dwarfs a magic phase, the SOM way of doing it may be the future, but its not something i like lol

now if we got more runes on the anvil, or buyable ones that would be better, if it was going to be magic for the dwarfs it would probably be like the old tomb kings with bound items everywhere

Saying that you don't want a magic phase, but love the anvil seems like a cop out to me.
Dwarf players seem perfectly happy with the magical hits that slow the enemy, or the magical movement that lets them charge; As long as it's in the shooting phase, and your opponent has no way to stop it. Take the exact same effect, run it one phase earlier, and make it balanced by giving your opponent a chance to defend, and you get a bunch of beard-lovers up in arms.

Now, If you hate the idea of spells and don't use the anvil, then that's a position I can respect.

-Matt

^ funny and true

Take a look at what I've got so far, Formosa. It's basically the same theatrical concept, but more balanced--from everyone's point of view:

Rune Lore: the Dwarfs distrust the fickle winds of magic, preferring to bind it in metal, wood, and bone with the art they call Runesmithing. While not as devastating to their foes, the number of times a Runesmith has wreaked havoc within his own lines are few indeed; a boast the more foolish races cannot hope to match.
Runelords and Runesmiths are wizards, but may never attempt to channel power dice. They can channel dispel dice on a 5+.

Runelord 195pts
M3 WS5 BS4 S4 T5 W3 I2 A2 Ld9
Additional Equipment
• Level 4 wizard +35pts
• gromil shield +6pts
• great weapon +6pts
• crossbow +10pts
• Anvil of Doom +150pts
• May select magic items from the Common Magic Items and Ancient Runes lists, up to 125pts.
Special Rules: Ancestral Grudge, Resolute, Relentless, Rune Lore, Shield Wall

Runesmith 80pts
M3 WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I2 A2 Ld9
Additional Equipment
• Level 2 wizard +35pts
• gromil shield +3pts
• great weapon +2pts
• crossbow +5pts
• May select magic items from the Common Magic Items and Ancient Runes lists, up to 75pts.
Special Rules: Ancestral Grudge, Resolute, Relentless, Rune Lore, Shield Wall


The Anvil of Doom
The Anvil of Doom is crewed by a Runelord and four Rune Guards.
A Runelord with the Anvil of Doom has the Loremaster special rule and can ignore the range restrictions on any spell (including requiring line of sight), as well as the first miscast of each magic phase.
The Anvil of Doom adds two dispel dice to the owning player’s dispel pool.

Anvil of Doom M0 WS0 BS0 S0 T10W7 I0 A0 Ld0
Rune Guard M3 WS5 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld10
Equipment (Rune Guard only): Hand weapon, gromil armour
Special Rules: Ancestral Grudge, Indestructible, Unbreakable

Runic Lore- Grudge Magic, Wordlore, Sigil-Carving
Ancient Power (Lore Attribute)
Runesmiths binding the Winds of Magic into runes before battle, releasing their latent energies when needed. This process is difficult and time-consuming to the extreme, but the Dwarfs find the results to be to their liking.
If the wizard Miscasts, he may modify the result by up to 1d3.

...? (Signature Spell)

1. Hearth and Hold (Cast on a 7+)
The Runesmith commands the earth itself, as a brother and friend to all Dwarfs, to stand aside and let them pass.
Hearth and Hold is an augment with a range of 12”. The target unit gains the Strider special rule, and treats natural impassible terrain as open ground until the start of the caster’s next magic phase. The caster can choose to affect all units within 12”. If he does so, the casting value of Hearth and Hold increases to 14+.

2. Gold and Glory (Cast on a 7+)
With a clenched gauntlet and a ringing shout, the Runesmith fills the hearts of his kin with a pride in their ancestors, and a hunger to match them in honor and plunder.
Gold and Glory is an augment with a range of 24”. The target unit may make a move at the start of the shooting phase. This may be a charge. The caster can choose to extend the range to 48”. If he does so, the casting value of Gold and Glory increases to 10+.

3. Cinder and Sunder (Cast on a 7+)
The Runesmith reaches out to his work, written on axe blades and shield faces all around, awakening great power in even the most minor of runes.
Cinder and Sunder is an augment with a range of 36”. The any attacks the target unit makes have the Flaming Attacks special rule and Magic Resistance (2). The caster can choose to grant the target unit a +1 to hit and Magic Resistance (3). If he does so, the casting value of Cinder and Sunder increases to 14+.

4. Tomb and Trial (Cast on a 8+)
Faced with impossible odds, the Runesmith calls to his clan, leading them in their Death Song, so they may face the end with dignity and pride.
Tomb and Trial is an augment with a range of 18”. The target unit gains the Unbreakable and Fear special rules. At the end of the game, the opposing player is awarded victory points as if they had destroyed this unit, even if the unit survived. The caster can choose to increase the spells range to 42”. If he does so, the casting value of Tomb and Trial increases to 12+

5. Wrath and Ruin (Cast on a 8+)
The Runesmith smites the ground with his hammer, the earth cracking and splitting before his strike, until the ground beneath his foe bursts forth in elemental fury, leaving charred desolation in its wake.
Wrath and Ruin is a direct damage spell with a range of 36”. Place the small round template anywhere within range—it then template scatters d6”. Any unit touched by the template takes d6 S4 hits. Place a piece of dangerous terrain where the template resolved. The caster may choose to use the large template instead, causing 2d6 S4 hits. If he does so, the casting value of Wrath and Ruin increases to a 16+.

6. Oath and Honor (Cast on a 12+)
Oath and Honor is an augment spell that affects all units within 18”. All friendly Dwarf units within the spell’s range gain +2 Toughness until the start of the caster’s next magic phase. The caster can choose to increase the bonus to +4. If he does so, the casting value of Oath and Honor increases to 24+.

Oath and Honor- +2 what?

My lord, can we just drop this whole magic thing. My guess is that when the new book comes out, GW and all their stubborness will not add any magic, so whats with all the what if's?

Poppabear wrote:My lord, can we just drop this whole magic thing. My guess is that when the new book comes out, GW and all their stubborness will not add any magic, so whats with all the what if's?

Because they have shown to radically change up the magic phase of many of the 8th armies. Biggest is probably Tomb Kings who before only did bound magic, and now have a full out Lore. Ogres and Vampires also slightly changed up how they do magic.

Heh. Sorry. The Big Spell is a blanket +2/+4 Toughness.

What "what-if's"? I'm working on an alternate Dwarf rulebook. And in this book, the magical runes Dwarfs use to protect themselves and smite their foes will be, ya' know, magic. Because that's what it is.

The Rune system for items is cool. But it was created back in the day of handfuls of common magic items, rather than several pages worth. Games Workshop obviously did this to help balance armies--everyone uses the same big ol' list of items, with a few of their own mixed in. The chances of things like Pendant of Khaeleth, Doomrocket, Van Horstmann's Speculum, etc. are a lot smaller when you're only looking at eight new items in each book.

And as for wizards-and-spells type magic, that's just more of the same issue. It's a lot harder to balance an army with no magic and lots of anti magic against one with a little of both than it is to balance two of the latter, side-by-side.

Furthermore, the Anvil made no sense before. The Runes are clearly spells; that's painfully obvious. They're magic letters and symbols. Hit 'em with a hammer, magic happens.
If that's not magic, then what is?

So if it's magic, why does it have it's own weird system? Why ignore the power/dispel die pools in exchange for some goofy war machine table?
Sure, it works. But there's no reason for it to be so different than the rest of the books.

Final note: why ask "what's with all the what if's" when you're offering up your own guess at what Games Workshop will do next?
This is a thread about an alternate Dwarf army book, in the Proposed Rules section of DakkaDakka. This thread is exactly where it needs to be, and is doing exactly what it was intended to do. I will not drop this whole magic thing. There's no reason to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, here's the first draft, all together.

I think the unlimited range and no need for LoS on the anvil is silly. Worst thing in the 7th edition book is having the idea placement of the anvil be on a small island in a lake of lava, surround by very tall forests.

I'd give it the Casket of Souls treatment. +D3 power dice, and a bound effect (or your choice of bound effects). I'd have it be a strait up rare choice and not related to the Lord choice.

-Matt

I like it. As a Rare, the Anvil could see play in lists that aren't Anvil Lists.

What if the Anvil just had every one of the spells as bound effects?

any more updates? cmon this is an intersting thread

lol, this whole thing is silly. I really really really really REALLY hope GW just tweeks the book and doesn't do a whole revamp of it, mabye making Warriors 7 or 6 points, Quarrallers 9pts and Thunderers 10pts. Fix the Flame gun and yea, thats about it .

Oh, and give slayers KB/HKB, and mabye a ward save - You know, those tatoos should give them some scarded thing, possibly a Ward Save?

If you don't like it, you don't need to read it. Or post comments.

I could see Warriors dropping in points, and Quarrelers/Thunderers should cost 2/3pts more than Warriors.

I don't see Slayers with Killing Blow; they're all about killing big scary things, which Killing Blow doesn't do anything to. And Heroic Killing Blow...maybe on the characters, but then they'd be more expensive, and it's already tough to find a reason to field a Lord who doesn't wear armour and can only join units that also have no armour.
As for the Ward save...yup. Check it. Runic Tattoos. Ward save.

But in all honesty, if you're just going to dismiss my ideas as silly, don't bother telling me.
Remember: I'm not saying Dwarfs suck. I'm saying they are very limited, and want to broaden that limitation. Are you really saying you don't think they should have more options?

Heroic Killing Blow is like the rarest of rare abilities in the game. They give it to ~300 pt monsters. I think they way Slayers work now totally fits the Slayer concept. If they had HKB they'd have to reduce their attacks to like 1 or they'd just be mulching everything in sight.