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biccat wrote:
I couldn't when I went to college. I got private loans (which I'm still repaying). My parents were able to help some, but it wasn't easy for them.

A $100,000 handout from the government would have been nice, in hindsight.

I couldn't either, and I also took out private loans...but I also took out government loans, and probably wouldn't have gone to the school I went to without them.

I also know people that never would have been able to go to school at all without government assistance.

Handouts are nice, but pretending the majority of state associated student loans are handouts is just willful ignorance.

biccat wrote:I'm not sure you see the point I'm making.

I see your point. I just think it is wrong (Amongst a variety of other negative things taht would probably break the first rule of Dakka).

Melissia wrote:

biccat wrote:I'm not sure you see the point I'm making.

I see your point. I just think it is wrong.

How is it wrong?

A very simple question: does something get cheaper when someone else pays for it?

The college has an operating expense. That expense will be met either by government money or by student tuition payments.

biccat wrote:You don't need a college degree to design websites, program, or work in human resources. Yet college degrees are a prerequisite for these and many other occupations.

You don't need a college degree to do anything. If you spend some time in a library, at least any decent library, you can accomplish anything you can via formal education.

Degrees are rubber stamps, they have always been rubber stamps.

I'll even go out and say that Karl Rove, who holds no degree, is one of the single best examples of my profession. A degree was a good choice for me because I wasn't connected to the industry I wanted to be a part of.

biccat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You had parents that were able to help. I didn't.

I'm not sure, but I doubt a few pizzas a month would have made all that much difference in your educational career.

Frazzled wrote:Were those private loans via Pell Grant? Without government guarantee or parents on the hook no bank will privately fund you.

No Pell Grants, because federal grants are income limited. This year you start to lose eligibility around $30,000/year. Apparently after that you can afford it on your own.

You're right, private guarantors did require parents to cosign student loans.


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Melissia wrote:As for the Texas government, it had the foresignt to set up a fund that earns proceeds from land sales. Look up the Public University Fund while I'm in class.

I'm not sure you see the point I'm making.

Colleges are expensive. Passing the bill to the taxpayer government doesn't mean they suddenly have fewer expenses.

Melissia wrote:You don't need a college degree to do anything aside from scientific research. Even that doesn't need a college degree, it's more that the degree itself is just training until you get to the level of being qualified for research.

Yep. Although I would expand that to any STEM degree. There may be some other, non-STEM, degrees that include a job-training component, but they're certainly rare.

Again if you don't have parents that can cosign a loan or a govenment guarantee all that other nonsense is, well nonsense.
You think the difference is a few pizzas? You haven't paid for the raw price of college recently have you

I'd better stop talking about the college thing as its a very personal and very emotional issue for me.
I'll just leave it that, although I think ther'es waste and abuse in college on a level equivalent to military spending, every American citizen should have the opportunity to go to university if they have the intellectual ability. Same to same for vocational/skilled journeyman training. We're not ing India here (and no insult meant to India just their old higher education system).

Frazzled wrote:
I'd better stop talking about the college thing as its a very personal and very emotional issue for me.
I'll just leave it that, although I think ther'es waste and abuse in college on a level equivalent to military spending, every American citizen should have the opportunity to go to university if they have the intellectual ability. Same to same for vocational/skilled journeyman training. We're not ing India here (and no insult meant to India just their old higher education system).

Bold is mine, as it's the important bit.
Incidentally, Frazzled, have I ever told you how much I'm being impressed by you recently? It's quite a lot.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
I'd better stop talking about the college thing as its a very personal and very emotional issue for me.
I'll just leave it that, although I think ther'es waste and abuse in college on a level equivalent to military spending, every American citizen should have the opportunity to go to university if they have the intellectual ability. Same to same for vocational/skilled journeyman training. We're not ing India here (and no insult meant to India just their old higher education system).

Bold is mine, as it's the important bit.
Incidentally, Frazzled, have I ever told you how much I'm being impressed by you recently? It's quite a lot.

Well personally I think the parties have forgotten the "opportunity part" of the the American mantra.

I'm actually a very mellow and compassionate person.*

*This is a lie.

Frazzled wrote:I'll just leave it that, although I think ther'es waste and abuse in college on a level equivalent to military spending, every American citizen should have the opportunity to go to university if they have the intellectual ability. Same to same for vocational/skilled journeyman training. We're not ing India here (and no insult meant to India just their old higher education system).

I generally agree. But given that college is a very valuable commodity people who get it should be asked to pay for it themselves. If the value of a college degree over an individuals working lifetime is $1 million and the true cost of the education is $100k, shouldn't the recipient be asked to pay for a substantial portion of that initial outlay?

The "intellectual ability" argument is a tricky part. Obtaining a college degree in underwater basket weaving takes far less intellectual firepower than obtaining a degree in electrical engineering or physics. You might be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't have the intellectual ability to get some college degree.. Even assuming we subside college as a public good, I don't see why someone aspiring to get a degree in puppetry is as equally deserving as someone who wants a degree in organic chemistry.

biccat wrote:I generally agree. But given that college is a very valuable commodity people who get it should be asked to pay for it themselves. If the value of a college degree over an individuals working lifetime is $1 million and the true cost of the education is $100k, shouldn't the recipient be asked to pay for a substantial portion of that initial outlay?

And we do, in the form of school loans.

School loans currently exceed 1 trillion dollars. The total amount has more than doubled in the past five years, and now exceeds credit card debt in terms of what America owes.

Believe me, people are paying it back. And then some. The problem is actually the colleges, not the students. Colleges are gaming the system and not giving a gak about students to get quick money.

The way private colleges abuse US military veterans is shocking.

Frazzled wrote:And we do, in the form of school loans.

The amount the student pays in tuition is small because of state funding.

UT: Austin apparently receives about 30% of its core budget (totalling $300 million+) in state funds. Why shouldn't students cover this expense?

biccat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:And we do, in the form of school loans.

The amount the student pays in tuition is small because of state funding.

UT: Austin apparently receives about 30% of its core budget (totalling $300 million+) in state funds. Why shouldn't students cover this expense?

I don't know what planet you're on but its not small.

Reason: so qualified poor kids can go and not carjack your ass maybe?

biccat wrote:The amount the student pays in tuition is small

You are either a liar deliberately misrepresenting the facts, or you have no goddamned clue what the frak you're talking about.

Which one is it?

biccat wrote:
The amount the student pays in tuition is small because of state funding.

Smaller maybe.

Frazzled wrote:I don't know what planet you're on but its not small.

Reason: so qualified poor kids can go and not carjack your ass maybe?

Small relative to the actual cost.

Poor kids should get a free scholarship to avoid carjacking people (well, the qualified ones, presumably it's OK for unqualified kids to continue to carjack)? If I threaten to carjack someone, will the state pay off my student loans?

dogma wrote:

biccat wrote:
The amount the student pays in tuition is small because of state funding.

Smaller maybe.

State funding is actually going down, but I am not certain if this figure includes the proceeds received from land grant investments.

biccat wrote:
Small relative to the actual cost.

And?

biccat wrote:
Poor kids should get a free scholarship to avoid carjacking people (well, the qualified ones, presumably it's OK for unqualified kids to continue to carjack)? If I threaten to carjack someone, will the state pay off my student loans?

Yes. Welcome to pragmatism.

Let's put it this way-- America's 18.2 million college students, and a (larger) number of recent graduates (Where recent equals "in the last ten years"), currently owe more money to student loan agencies than ALL of America's 308.7 million people owe in terms of credit card debt.

America's students pay very large amounts of money to go to school. Not all of these schools are worth a damn.

biccat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I don't know what planet you're on but its not small.

Reason: so qualified poor kids can go and not carjack your ass maybe?

Small relative to the actual cost.

Poor kids should get a free scholarship to avoid carjacking people (well, the qualified ones, presumably it's OK for unqualified kids to continue to carjack)? If I threaten to carjack someone, will the state pay off my student loans?

Sorry, fat white guys don't get their loans repaid under the "please don't kill me!" scholarship program. *
*If you're not a fat white guy, then please fill out these forms in triplicate and have them notarized by your nearest probation officer.

Wait, now you're arguing free scholarships? Frazzled confused!


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dogma wrote:

biccat wrote:
Small relative to the actual cost.

And?

biccat wrote:
Poor kids should get a free scholarship to avoid carjacking people (well, the qualified ones, presumably it's OK for unqualified kids to continue to carjack)? If I threaten to carjack someone, will the state pay off my student loans?

Yes. Welcome to pragmatism.

And this is why one should never be a Ron Paul level Libertarian.

I think the argument is at cross purposes.

If I read biccat's point correctly, it's that one of the reasons college is expensive for the students that really belong there are competing for seats with students that are just looking to kill team before getting a job.

Essentially, college is the new high school. And all of the problems associated with high school have appeared.

If it was harder for all students attend college, only those with strong desire to do so would.

Go into any low level university, or any juco or community college: you'll find people that have little to no hope of repaying loans. It's just as true of people earning English PhDs to be sure.

The problem, as always, is how do you determine who "deserves" college, without simply resorting to standardized checks and their parent's money?

College degress are paper, just like currency. Print too much, and it becomes less valuable. However, unless you happen to have something of intrinsic value (skills or gold), you still need it.

Melissia wrote:Let's put it this way-- America's 18.2 million college students, and a (larger) number of recent graduates (Where recent equals "in the last ten years"), currently owe more money to student loan agencies than ALL of America's 308.7 million people owe in terms of credit card debt.

America's students pay very large amounts of money to go to school. Not all of these schools are worth a damn.

Universities are saying that the benefit of a 4-year degree is $1 million. I don't think that's correct. But even if it's 10% of that ($100,000), you're paying less than you're getting.

Polonius wrote:If it was harder for all students attend college, only those with strong desire to do so would.

More likely, only those who already have money anyway.

Y'know my sister might be going to harvard when i asked about how she wil pay for it she said
"They will Help me if i get in"
"Ahh, Y'know they mea 'Direct you to the loan office' right"
My dad still think they will pay for it all.
College is expensive. Here at comminty college it can cost 1000$ a semester in fees. FOR COMMUNITY COLLEGE!!!!
And i still can speel right.

Melissia wrote:

Polonius wrote:If it was harder for all students attend college, only those with strong desire to do so would.

More likely, only those who already have money anyway.

That'll always be a factor, to be sure.

I think that general loans are a way to pour money into a "problem", that only creates new/interesting problems.

As you've pointed out, schools are simply grabbing students, giving them loan documents, and funding themselves entirely on government dollars. We're not subsidizing education, we're subsidizing the educational industry.




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hotsauceman1 wrote:Y'know my sister might be going to harvard when i asked about how she wil pay for it she said
"They will Help me if i get in"
"Ahh, Y'know they mea 'Direct you to the loan office' right"
My dad still think they will pay for it all.
College is expensive. Here at comminty college it can cost 1000$ a semester in fees. FOR COMMUNITY COLLEGE!!!!
And i still can speel right.

A harvard degree doesn't cost that much more than any other private school degree, and is incredibly more marketable.

If you can't spell in college, than while I agree you could use more education, I'm not sure it needs to be at the collegiate level.

Which of course is part of the problem: our eagerness to send everybody to college means students that had trouble at the high school level basically spend years and thousands of dollars learning what they should have learned prior to graduating.

biccat wrote:But even if it's 10% of that ($100,000), you're paying less than you're getting.

Going with the 18.2 million students, who owe collectively more than 1 trillion dollars:

1,000,000,000,000 / 18,200,000 = each one owes on average ~$55,000 (rounded off). This is a bit higher than it actually is, but not by much (it's in the fourty thousands). For private loans, the average interest rate of 10.79% which is adjustable by the company, while for federal student aid loans, it is a fixed rate of 6.8%.

In order to ensure that your debt doesn't increase every year, you have to at least pay interest off every year, which for private loans equals paying about ~$6000 a year, quite a hefty amount that one would often be pretty lucky making (Especially for teachers...). Paying this consistently on time for thirty years nets a total of $181,005. Paying more than the interest rate would lessen this amount exponentially, but that is also harder and harder the higher you go up unless you lucked out with a really excellent job. Paying less than this would increase what you owe.

Thankfully not all of the loans are private. But even if all of that $55k is federal loans, that's still $3,740 a year, which again over thirty years is $112,200.

But you know what, even ignoring all of the math, the premise of your statement is off. Of COURSE you get more than you pay for. It's called investment. A good investment SHOULD render you more than you paid for.

@all: Even when attacking arguments rather than persons, it's still preferable to avoid inflammatory adjectives such as "stupid," at least if you actually want people to read what you're saying for comprehension rather than just infuriating them. If you're just trying to infuriate them then you are by default in violation of Rule Number One. I will be monitoring this thread and encourage you all to continue this discussion with that in mind. Thanks.

Manchu wrote:@all: Even when attacking arguments rather than persons, it's still preferable to avoid inflammatory adjectives such as "stupid," at least if you actually want people to read what you're saying for comprehension rather than just infuriating them. If you're just trying to infuriate them then you are by default in violation of Rule Number One. I will be monitoring this thread and encourage you all to continue this discussion with that in mind. Thanks.

Yea don't off Manchu! And what is that avatar anyway????

If you mean my avatar, it's from an upcoming fan film called Judge Minty -- which I think you'd really like, actually. ~Manchu

Melissia wrote:over thirty years

And of course you know that the "minimum" Federal loan payment is calculated on a 10 year basis.

Melissia wrote:Of COURSE you get more than you pay for. It's called investment. A good investment SHOULD render you more than you paid for.

Investments shouldn't be subsidized. Whether it's a college education or stock.

The counter argument is that investing in college educated workers is just as wise for government as investing in primary education. Or roads and defense for that matter.

I'd prefer if the spending has narrower in focus. We should help kids that want to go to college, have the chops to go to college, but can't afford to go. At whatever level they want/can handle: university to trade school.

But... I know too many people with essentially worthless degrees to wring my hands about how not enough people go to college.

Polonius wrote:But... I know too many people with essentially worthless degrees to wring my hands about how not enough people go to college.

Or, in my case, met so many people who had no interest at all in education while in college.