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Hukoseft wrote:no they don't....this is where your logic is failing, you're only rolling an extra dice, but there are two sources causing you to roll extra dice, you are only satisfying one source, you need to satisfy the other source by rolling an extra dice on top of the extra dice already added

if two people say they are going to give you an apple, you receive one apple, have both of them given you an apple? no therefore a requirement has not been met yet

as all they ask player one to do is the underlined (AKA roll an extra die), both are satisfied.

Player 1 is required to roll an extra die for RoW.

Player has 2 RoW that tell player 1 to roll an extra die.

Player rolls 3d6 instead of 2d6 and we check to see if he has satisfied both RoW rules.

Will Player 1 Roll an extra die?

If yes he satisfies one of the RoW rules. Then we look at the second RoW, and it says player 1 must roll an extra die...

We check to see if player 1 has satisfied the second RoW rules, and we find out that player one will roll an extra die, thereby satisfying Both RoW.

If it had said roll two extra die (Or an extra extra die), you wound have something, but it only says to roll on (Through the use of An, in the phrase).

but what you're ignoring is the fact he is not told to roll an extra dice once, he asked to roll an extra dice twice

what you dont seem to be getting is that rolling an extra dice for the first runes of warding does NOT satisfy the requirements for the second set, as it was for another piece of wargear

are you also arguing that someone who has runes of witnessing vs someone who has runes of warding does not roll 4d6 and removes the highest and that he just rolls 3d6?

what about the tyranid Shadows of the warp? that says add an extra dice....

DeathReaper wrote:Then we look at the second RoW, and it says player 1 must roll an extra die...

We check to see if player 1 has satisfied the second RoW rules, and we find out that player one will roll an extra die, thereby satisfying Both RoW.

If it had said roll two extra die (Or an extra extra die), you wound have something, but it only says to roll on (Through the use of An, in the phrase).

Again, you're ignoring the fact that you've also satisfied RoWi and SitW - and you have no basis for doing so.

You also are ignoring the fact that you're making an assumption that the default roll is 2d6. If a psyker in a future codex has to roll an extra die for psychic tests, does he get to ignore SitW and RoWa? Your ruling seems to be yes.

You also still haven't addressed who wins in a RoWi, SitW, RoWa battle - if my Nids are fighting Eldar, and his psyker has RoWi but is also under SitW - which one takes effect? Or in Apocalypse if there's a RoWa and SitW covering the same unit - which one wins? Or if 2 Eldar are fighting - does RoWi beat RoWa or vice versa?

Unless you can satisfactorily answer those problems, your ruling causes more problems than it solves. Ethics or not, that would mean that you're wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

arch1angel wrote:what about the tyranid Shadows of the warp? that says add an extra dice....

SitW is worded slightly differently - in a way that it cannot stack. I don't have it in front of me at this second but it's essentially,
"If a psyker is affected by Shadows in the Warp, he rolls an extra d6 for his psychic test. Any roll of double 1s or double 6s causes a Perils of the Warp."

Since multiple SitW covering a single model all satisfy "affected by Shadows in the Warp" you only roll a single extra d6.

arch1angel wrote:what about the tyranid Shadows of the warp? that says add an extra dice.

Actually no, it does not say to add an extra die.

I am not sure what RoWi does, but SitW says: "Any enemy psyker that takes a psychic test within 12" of a Tyranid with Shadow in the Warp special rule must take the test on 3D6..." so if RoWi adds an extra die then, since SitW forces a roll on 3D6 they work just fine together.

If you are playing teams and you are under the effects of RoW and SitW, then you roll on 4D6, but that is because SitW tells you to take the test on 3d6, and RoW adds an extra die to that roll.

DeathReaper wrote:

arch1angel wrote:what about the tyranid Shadows of the warp? that says add an extra dice.

Actually no, it does not say to add an extra die.

Page 33 – Shadow in the Warp, second paragraph
Change to “Any enemy psyker within 12” of a Tyranid
with the Shadow in the Warp special rule must roll an
extra dice when taking Psychic tests, and will suffer a
Perils of the Warp attack on the roll of any double 1 or
double 6.

DeathReaper wrote:

arch1angel wrote:what about the tyranid Shadows of the warp? that says add an extra dice.

Actually no, it does not say to add an extra die.

I am not sure what RoWi does, but SitW says: "Any enemy psyker that takes a psychic test within 12" of a Tyranid with Shadow in the Warp special rule must take the test on 3D6..." so if RoWi adds an extra die then, since SitW forces a roll on 3D6 they work just fine together.

If you are playing teams and you are under the effects of RoW and SitW, then you roll on 4D6, but that is because SitW tells you to take the test on 3d6, and RoW adds an extra die to that roll.

Someone needs to read the Tyranid FAQ/Errata. You're wrong on what SitW says.

DeathReaper wrote:

arch1angel wrote:what about the tyranid Shadows of the warp? that says add an extra dice.

Actually no, it does not say to add an extra die.

I am not sure what RoWi does, but SitW says: "Any enemy psyker that takes a psychic test within 12" of a Tyranid with Shadow in the Warp special rule must take the test on 3D6..." so if RoWi adds an extra die then, since SitW forces a roll on 3D6 they work just fine together.

If you are playing teams and you are under the effects of RoW and SitW, then you roll on 4D6, but that is because SitW tells you to take the test on 3d6, and RoW adds an extra die to that roll.

check the faq noob, it has been changed to add an extra dice too

<There are more polite ways to express yourself; please avail yourself of them, before something unfortunate happens to your posting privileges. --Janthkin>

Hukoseft wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

arch1angel wrote:what about the tyranid Shadows of the warp? that says add an extra dice.

Actually no, it does not say to add an extra die.

I am not sure what RoWi does, but SitW says: "Any enemy psyker that takes a psychic test within 12" of a Tyranid with Shadow in the Warp special rule must take the test on 3D6..." so if RoWi adds an extra die then, since SitW forces a roll on 3D6 they work just fine together.

If you are playing teams and you are under the effects of RoW and SitW, then you roll on 4D6, but that is because SitW tells you to take the test on 3d6, and RoW adds an extra die to that roll.

check the faq noob, it has been changed to add an extra dice too

For the sake of everyone's sanity and for a calmer discussion, please can you avoid insulting other members? They might simply have missed that FAQ entry.

Yeah... I missed the newly updated FAQ... didn't realized that they updated it in Jan 2012...

It does say "add extra dice"... so... Adding 2nd farseer seems to make it a 4D6 test...

*sigh*... I guess I'm going to see a 2 farseer list in the future... since we're seeing a sh!t-ton of GK lately... which is okay by me since I play orks and DE!!

But guys... really... whats the diff between 3D6 and 4D6????

One farseer is enough to shut down the opponent's power! So, don't get too worked up about it! If an eldar play chooses to add the 2nd farseer... it aint an optional list!

I know, but we have been talking about changes to faqs and he doesnt bother to check his facts before posting, I have at least emailed gw asking about the runes of warding stacking, of course I'm not expecting a reply

also, rolling 3d6 is adding an extra dice, so by his own arguments the runes of witnessing would have been satisfied so it wouldn't be 4d6 it would be 3d6, he is contradicting himself and it is just starting to irritate me

EDIT: @whembly the difference between 3d6 and 4d6 is that 3d6 average is 10.5, whereas 4d6 average is 14, one on average will just be failing the tests the other being wounding the caster....also it makes it heaps harder to get off

whembly wrote:But guys... really... whats the diff between 3D6 and 4D6????

An average of 3.5.

3d6 means with just a little bit of luck, a LDR10 psyker can still expect to pass most of his tests. (average 10.5)
vs
4d6 means that a psyker has to get really lucky to pass any tests (average 14)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hukoseft wrote:I know, but we have been talking about changes to faqs and he doesnt bother to check his facts before posting, I have at least emailed gw asking about the runes of warding stacking, of course I'm not expecting a reply

also, rolling 3d6 is adding an extra dice, so by his own arguments the runes of witnessing would have been satisfied so it wouldn't be 4d6 it would be 3d6, he is contradicting himself and it is just starting to irritate me

Regardless of your irritation, discussions need to stay civil. If he hadn't read the Tyranid FAQ (or just forgot it was FAQed) he wouldn't be contradicting himself.

I wonder if he has me on ignore though, because I've posed that question multiple times.

Will somebody please give me the page number for where stacking can be found in the BRB?

Hukoseft wrote:I know, but we have been talking about changes to faqs and he doesnt bother to check his facts before posting, I have at least emailed gw asking about the runes of warding stacking, of course I'm not expecting a reply

also, rolling 3d6 is adding an extra dice, so by his own arguments the runes of witnessing would have been satisfied so it wouldn't be 4d6 it would be 3d6, he is contradicting himself and it is just starting to irritate me

EDIT: @whembly the difference between 3d6 and 4d6 is that 3d6 average is 10.5, whereas 4d6 average is 14, one on average will just be failing the tests the other being wounding the caster....also it makes it heaps harder to get off

LOL...

Maybe it's because I don't play psykers... but, it "seems" that everytime I see my bro bring just one farseer against 'Nids/BA/GK, his opponent either doesn't cast powers, or perils himself to death.

Anyhoo... I'll step out of this debate as it doesn't impact me much.

Camarodragon wrote:Will somebody please give me the page number for where stacking can be found in the BRB?

It is not in there.

Hukoseft wrote:check the faq noob, it has been changed to add an extra dice too

Thank you for abiding by rule #1 of the forums, it serves to keep these discussions from getting heated.

I do not have anyone on ignore, I must have just missed it when you asked Rig.

And Yes, I did not see the FaQ, I was going by the Tyranid Codex.

The Nid FaQ says to roll an extra dice, then it would be satisfied as well if you were to roll an extra die.

Can you not see how it can be read this way?

I can see it however after taking logic at university I can also see how wrong it is

Hukoseft wrote:therefore if both runes of warding are in range (which they always are), why not "add an extra dice" because of farseer one, then "add an extra dice" for farseer two? nothing is telling you you can't whereas in those two examples both state they don't stack

Except the rules must say you can, as it is a permissive ruleset.

Nothing is telling you that you can't roll loaded dice either, but we know we can not because the rules do not allow us to use loaded dice.

Where in the rules are you allowed to stack those RoW?

Where in the rules are you allowed to stack Master Strategist? Nowhere, but GW have FAQ'd that they do.

It is far from beyond the realms of possibility that the same can apply to other things.

DeathReaper wrote:Can you not see how it can be read this way?

No, because there is no basis for "extra". Extra means additional - if you get to that rule, add a die to the roll.
Another rule adding a die doesn't satisfy it because there's no implied or stated limit, unlike SitW.

If the rule was worded similar to SitW, or had even an implied limit of one d6 I'd agree with you.
I don't see either as being true.
As I mentioned earlier, your interpretation raises many more questions. Would you care to address them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:Where in the rules are you allowed to stack those RoW?

RoWa say to roll an extra d6.
The onus is on you to deny the second (and more) d6's from being rolled. Simply saying one satisfies the other doesn't work because that's false.

in the rules which state ADD an EXTRA dice....it means you add as many extra dice for as many items which have this rule

in fact if you look at the tyranid rule it says any psyker within 12" of a tyranid with the rule must roll an extra dice, means either they are in range or not

whereas the runes of warding do not say anything of the sort, they just say enemy pskyers roll an extra nice when taking tests


so far all rules disallow the rule being multiplied, whereas this doesn't

think of the datasheet dark Olympiad for dark eldar, they get to roll twice on the combat drugs, if they were to get double 1s or 4s then the 2nd wouldn't have an effect, however if they got doubles for anything else they would stack

Hukoseft wrote:in the rules which state ADD an EXTRA dice....it means you add as many extra dice for as many items which have this rule

it means "add an extra die" as in one extra die. (not add an extra die for each RoW you have in the army, if they ment that they would have said that, or not, this is GW we are talking about).

rigeld2 wrote:RoWa say to roll an extra d6.
The onus is on you to deny the second (and more) d6's from being rolled. Simply saying one satisfies the other doesn't work because that's false.

It is not false.
The second D6 is only allowed to be rolled in one interpretation of RoW.

In the other, (and equally valid interpretation) one extra die fulfills the condition of roll an extra die, for all instances, because they all tell you to Roll an extra die, and if you roll 3D6 on a test where you normally roll 2d6 you are satisfying all conditions that say to Roll an extra die, because you are rolling an extra die.
E.G.
You must roll an extra die for Row #1, You must roll an extra die for Row #2
If you are rolling an extra die you simultaneously fulfill both questions of "are you rolling an extra die"

Avatar 720 wrote:Where in the rules are you allowed to stack Master Strategist? Nowhere, but GW have FAQ'd that they do.

Thus why I said Its ambiguous to say the least. If they FaQ it and say they stack then they do.

Until then, just like Master Strategist, it is unclear and we should take the least advantageous interpretation.

yes the runes of warding say roll an extra dice....so having two of them would cause them to roll an extra dice for each one

if person one says "here is an apple" then gives you an apple you have one apple, if person 2 says "here is an apple" and gives you an apple, you now have 2 apples correct? how is this principle any different?

Hukoseft wrote:in the rules which state ADD an EXTRA dice....it means you add as many extra dice for as many items which have this rule

in fact if you look at the tyranid rule it says any psyker within 12" of a tyranid with the rule must roll an extra dice, means either they are in range or not

whereas the runes of warding do not say anything of the sort, they just say enemy pskyers roll an extra nice when taking tests


so far all rules disallow the rule being multiplied, whereas this doesn't

think of the datasheet dark Olympiad for dark eldar, they get to roll twice on the combat drugs, if they were to get double 1s or 4s then the 2nd wouldn't have an effect, however if they got doubles for anything else they would stack

Actually the only difference between the wording of these rules is the range limitation. By your own logic if you meet the qualification of "within 12” of a Tyranid with the Shadow in the Warp special rule" three times over you'd have to roll three extra dice. Checked the rest of the FAQ, it does not say they don't stack.

Abandon wrote:

Hukoseft wrote:in the rules which state ADD an EXTRA dice....it means you add as many extra dice for as many items which have this rule

in fact if you look at the tyranid rule it says any psyker within 12" of a tyranid with the rule must roll an extra dice, means either they are in range or not

whereas the runes of warding do not say anything of the sort, they just say enemy pskyers roll an extra nice when taking tests


so far all rules disallow the rule being multiplied, whereas this doesn't

think of the datasheet dark Olympiad for dark eldar, they get to roll twice on the combat drugs, if they were to get double 1s or 4s then the 2nd wouldn't have an effect, however if they got doubles for anything else they would stack

Actually the only difference between the wording of these rules is the range limitation. By your own logic if you meet the qualification of "within 12” of a Tyranid with the Shadow in the Warp special rule" three times over you'd have to roll three extra dice. Checked the rest of the FAQ, it does not say they don't stack.

yes it does....you are either in range of a tyranid with the rule or you are not, if you are then you roll an extra dice when taking tests, if you are not then you roll as normal


RoWd just states you roll an extra dice, so the question you need to ask is am I doing what this wargear is saying.....for 1 runes it would be 3d6 because you roll an extra dice for it, for 2 runes you roll an extra dice for this guy and then also roll an extra (seperate) dice because this other guy is telling me to, this adds up to 4d6....unless you have runes of witnessing yourself in which case it would be 5d6 REMOVING THE HIGHEST

Hukoseft wrote:yes the runes of warding say roll an extra dice....so having two of them would cause them to roll an extra dice for each one

if person one says "here is an apple" then gives you an apple you have one apple, if person 2 says "here is an apple" and gives you an apple, you now have 2 apples correct? how is this principle any different?

Because you are comparing giving something to someone to making someone perform an action.

A better analogy would be:
If the rule is that you get 3 strikes, and the away teams special rule says you add an extra strike to how many strikes you get, and the home teams rule says you add an extra strike to how many strikes you get, then the analogy is a similar situation to what we are discussing.

Hukoseft wrote:

Abandon wrote:

Hukoseft wrote:in the rules which state ADD an EXTRA dice....it means you add as many extra dice for as many items which have this rule

in fact if you look at the tyranid rule it says any psyker within 12" of a tyranid with the rule must roll an extra dice, means either they are in range or not

whereas the runes of warding do not say anything of the sort, they just say enemy pskyers roll an extra nice when taking tests


so far all rules disallow the rule being multiplied, whereas this doesn't

think of the datasheet dark Olympiad for dark eldar, they get to roll twice on the combat drugs, if they were to get double 1s or 4s then the 2nd wouldn't have an effect, however if they got doubles for anything else they would stack

Actually the only difference between the wording of these rules is the range limitation. By your own logic if you meet the qualification of "within 12” of a Tyranid with the Shadow in the Warp special rule" three times over you'd have to roll three extra dice. Checked the rest of the FAQ, it does not say they don't stack.

yes it does....you are either in range of a tyranid with the rule or you are not, if you are then you roll an extra dice when taking tests, if you are not then you roll as normal


RoWd just states you roll an extra dice, so the question you need to ask is am I doing what this wargear is saying.....for 1 runes it would be 3d6 because you roll an extra dice for it, for 2 runes you roll an extra dice for this guy and then also roll an extra (seperate) dice because this other guy is telling me to, this adds up to 4d6....unless you have runes of witnessing yourself in which case it would be 5d6 REMOVING THE HIGHEST

But you see that's the kind of logic your arguing against... you either role an extra d6 or you don't... after all, it doesn't clearly say '...for each RoW' just like it doesn't say '...for each tyranid'.

but this is a piece of wargear as opposed to an army rule

Hukoseft wrote:but this is a piece of wargear as opposed to an army rule

Yes and it carries and ability just like SITW is an ability some nids have.

The qulifications that allow the abilities to effect a model are
SitW - being an enemy psyker withing 12" of a Tyranid that has SitW
RoW - being an enemy psyker

If you're going to say it does not matter how many nids with SitW are close to a model because it can only be an enemy psyker withing 12" of a Tyranid that has SitW once then it stands to reason it does not matter how many RoW are in play on the other side as the model can only be an enemy psyker once.

IMO This sounds broken so I'd have to agree with you on the RoW but disagree on the SitW. If one stacks the other should as well.

yes with sitw i am more likely to let that stack, purely RAW

but I would disagree RAI

I would agree that RAW, you would add a d6 for each RoW on the board.

It's impossible to know their intentions, so it would be acceptable to me to play as RAW.