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Private_Joker wrote:Yeah but this is Australia, the ANZAC tradition and values are so deeply rooted that noone dares offend them.

Funnily enough, love of the ANZAC is a cultural tradition that's about 15 to 20 years old, and is pretty much a direct copy of the American version of the same.

ifStatement wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

ifStatement wrote:This seems a little blown out of proportion. Chris Ryan and Andy McNab (also former SAS) get the piss taken out of them all the time in the UK media and nobody bats an eyelid.

That's because both of them may have faked a lot of their seperate accounts of the Bravo Two Zero mission.
Chris Ryan in particular is derided by his former regiment, because he accused one of the men on that mission of jepoardising it with his cowardice and refusal to do his duty - something that did not happen, and considering that soldier in question died during it, is in remarkable bad taste.

I know the furore around Ryand and McNab's novels and that is not what I'm referring to. For example I've seen reviews of Chris Ryan's tv shows which all but call him a moron and the comments have no relation to the bravo two zero mission or the novels written about it.

Fair enough. That personally is the reason I'd take the piss out of them.

sebster wrote:

Private_Joker wrote:Yeah but this is Australia, the ANZAC tradition and values are so deeply rooted that noone dares offend them.

Funnily enough, love of the ANZAC is a cultural tradition that's about 15 to 20 years old, and is pretty much a direct copy of the American version of the same.

Wait what...? So we've had ANZAC day since 1916 for nothing? Also how is it anything like the American version even if they have something similar?

Private_Joker wrote:

sebster wrote:

Private_Joker wrote:Yeah but this is Australia, the ANZAC tradition and values are so deeply rooted that noone dares offend them.

Funnily enough, love of the ANZAC is a cultural tradition that's about 15 to 20 years old, and is pretty much a direct copy of the American version of the same.

Wait what...? So we've had ANZAC day since 1916 for nothing? Also how is it anything like the American version even if they have something similar?

Kinda want to know the answer too.

Private_Joker wrote:Wait what...? So we've had ANZAC day since 1916 for nothing? Also how is it anything like the American version even if they have something similar?

Things aren't a cultural tradition because there's a public holiday named after them, unless you want to start claiming that Labour Day and the Queen's Birthday are as important to Australia as ANZAC Day.

In the 1970s, 80s and early 90s ANZAC Day was not nearly as well attended as it is today, and was frequently used by various groups to launch anti-war protests. It was in the mid-90s that the protests died off as the anti-war sentiment drawn from Vietnam finally dropped off, and around the same time attendances at ANZAC Day parades began to increase considerably. I consider all of that a very, very good thing, by the way, but it is funny to hear such a thing as being deeply rooted when it's a trend that, for me at least, feels pretty recent.

When I talk about an American copy of the same, I'm talking about the growing trend for people to publically declare their respect for soldiers, publically and as often as possible. It's that we can't just a respectful moments for soldiers, but we need TV shows that feature montages of documentary phootage set to Alex Lloyd songs. It's the idea that soldiers have become sacred cows that we dare not offend with even the silliest of jokes, else a horde of not-soldiers will start yelling at you, while making sure every second thing they say is to point out how much they personally respect soldiers.

It seems to me that particularly Australian way of dealing with a subject like this, to be respectful while not making a show of your respect, is being replaced by a more American version, based around far more public displays of declarations of soldiers.

Well in some ways ANZAC day is sacred and traditional to Australia in the fact that it marks the anniversary of our most significant battle. It's not just a remembered date, it is the remeberance of the sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of our men and women throughout history, it is also the day we reflect on ourselves. ANZAC traditions are real, you can see them in everyday life such as mateship, loyalty, our ability to overcome hardship in the most desolate enviroments and the willingness to help one another. An Australian soldier in most cases displays all of these and we see them as the ideal Aussie and they most rightfully are, as they have proved it time and again. If you don't see that as sacred and something to hang onto, then get out of my country. They still are human and in some cases can be scrutinized and held accountable, hell even make a few jokes, what they did on the Circle wasn't that bad but lets never forget who is fighting in some far away land for your rights.


ANZAC day is about the soldiers, nothing else. The war was unpopular and the hippies decided to make our soldiers pariahs of genocide and war crimes. Now that society realises it's mistake it went back to appreciating soldiers. The tradition has always been around, just the minority who ruined ANZAC day for the rest. Hell even soldiers returning were so angry and ashamed they didn't want anything to do with society and became hermits. The hippies left and the trend died, ANZAC stayed and the tradition lived. As I see it society is simply making up for its lack of respect during that time with enthusiasm and the promise never to repeat those mistakes again. So hell, make the soldiers sacred cows, I would much rather that then see them spat on again.

Private_Joker wrote:ANZAC day is about the soldiers, nothing else. The war was unpopular and the hippies decided to make our soldiers pariahs of genocide and war crimes. Now that society realises it's mistake it went back to appreciating soldiers. The tradition has always been around, just the minority who ruined ANZAC day for the rest.

Not really, no. It wasn't just the hippies and their nonsense, there was a general feeling that we didn't need to attend parades in order to recognise what our soldiers did. Seriously, I've seen the counts for parade numbers. It's surprising how few people attended parades in the early 90s.

Note I am not for one second saying that we never respected our soldiers. Australia's record of treatment for returned service men is second to none, and always has been. I'm just saying that overt support of our soldiers, via parades and public declarations, is a relatively recent development.

Marching down the main street, cenotaph guards and dawn services are all public and all have been around for a long time. The reason numbers were low is because family members and young people weren't welcome for a while however now the RSL is encouraging more people to come and has even let their kin wear medals, on the appropriate side of the chest of course. Heck even the relatives of the opposing side are allowed to march now. It's all about the soldiers choice to make change because it's their day, not the publics.

All I can say is: The Medal of Honor, given out to to people that have never faced an enemy or were not in battle at the time.

The Victoria Cross: Given out to heroes of the commenwealth that committed brave actions in the face of the enemy.

Wow, that is a grossly misguided statment.

Private_Joker wrote:Marching down the main street, cenotaph guards and dawn services are all public and all have been around for a long time. The reason numbers were low is because family members and young people weren't welcome for a while however now the RSL is encouraging more people to come and has even let their kin wear medals, on the appropriate side of the chest of course. Heck even the relatives of the opposing side are allowed to march now. It's all about the soldiers choice to make change because it's their day, not the publics.

I don't who you're arguing against or why. It started with your previous post, when you told us all that ANZAC day is a "rememberance of the sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of our men and women" as if that point was ever in dispute. We all know what the day is there for. We also all know the parade has been on for a long time... that's not in dispute. And I have absolutely no clue what little Johnnie wearing his Dad's medals would mean for attendances.

Just... listen to the exact words I am using, and accept or against that argument. I'm talking about parade attendances, and the general way in which Australians go about showing respect to it's soldiers. That has changed considerably in the last 15 years. Just go back and look 20 years ago, find me the public declarations of undying gratitude for Australian soldiers. Find me the people falling over themselves to declare that they love our soldiers so much they can't tolerate to ever see a joke told about them.

And compare that to today. That's what I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. Take it or reject it on those terms.

'Mateship'.



I love that. It's so Australian! Do you guys also have Sheiladom and Fair Dinkumhood?

Albatross wrote:'Mateship'.



I love that. It's so Australian!

When he was Prime Minister John Howard tried to have it added as a phrase to the preamble to the constitution. Seriously, 'mateship' would have been in the constitution.

His effort was laughed out of Canberra, but in a funny way Howard actually succeeded, because I'd never heard mateship before that, and now I hear it whenever people talk about Australian values.

Do you guys also have Sheiladom and Fair Dinkumhood?

We talk about ourselves as the land of the fair go, which is about as goofy

I was saying the public were invited into the ANZAC day events, that is why the numbers are high. I'm also saying that the gratitude for soldier's has always been there, and with advancements in technology and the media the public are able to share those thoughts, it isn't worshiping the "sacred cows", just a means of spreading their ideas and thoughts, nothing wrong with that.