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Frazzled wrote:The case doesn't need the racial component.

Need isn't a factor, nor is should, want, or hope.

Frazzled wrote:Its up to the jury to decide.

It wasn't a hate crime, so I doubt it. The racial component isn't "Let's go kill a black kid". You seem to be confusing recognition of a racial component with calling for prosecution for a racial component, among other errors.

Frazzled wrote:
The case doesn't need the racial component. Boil it down a teenager got murderized by the local crime watch Batman wannabe who thought he was someone casing the place.

The point isn't that this was a hate crime, the point is that the fact that the kid was black likely played into the determination that he was casing the place.

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:The case doesn't need the racial component.

Need isn't a factor, nor is should, want, or hope.

Frazzled wrote:Its up to the jury to decide.

It wasn't a hate crime, so I doubt it. The racial component isn't "Let's go kill a black kid". You seem to be confusing recognition of a racial component with calling for prosecution for a racial component, among other errors.

If its not a hate crime then its not racial and why ar you even arguing the issue?

Batman wannabe sees teenager. Thinks teenager is suspicious. Thats either because - he dresses like your standard loser suspicious tennager and/or he's black.

Ok.

He calls 911. He seems to have had them on speed dial. They say thanks.
He follows said kid.

Now here's the only thing thats important, the actual incident.
1. Did he confront the kid? Did the kid confront him?
2. Did he just blast the kid?
3. If 2 is no, then was there a fight, and why did the defendant cap the kid?
4. If the defandant confronted the kid and a fight started then who started it? This has legal ramifications as the defendant stated it was self defense.
Are there any witnesses?

protip - its a losing argument to start a fight and then claim self defense. Starting a confrontation and then having that turn into a shoot is an almost equally hard row to hoe if you're claiming self defense in this type of circumstance.

In short absent witnesses confirming that teenager attacked him out of hand Batman SHOULD be in a world of hurt, at least in how that sort of thing is adjudicated in Texas, regardless of why teenager was singled out in the first place.








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dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
The case doesn't need the racial component. Boil it down a teenager got murderized by the local crime watch Batman wannabe who thought he was someone casing the place.

The point isn't that this was a hate crime, the point is that the fact that the kid was black likely played into the determination that he was casing the place.

Indeed may be so (see my post below yours). I'm not saying it didn't. I'm not saying it did.
I'm just saying Batman's goose would normally be cooked regardless.

Frazzled wrote:If its not a hate crime then its not racial and why ar you even arguing the issue?

Because issues of race and ethnicity aren't only relegated to whether something is a Hate Crime or not. In fact most discussions about race don't involve Hate Crimes prosecution.

This is helpful
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-black-militia-group-says-it-plans-to-arrest-the-neighborhood-watchman-who-shot-trayvon-martin-2012-3

Now the interesting question to be explored on other gun related sites is, if you're Z and these guys show up and try to arrest you, can you cap them?
Answer of course:in Texas, a lot...

Frazzled wrote:This is helpful
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-black-militia-group-says-it-plans-to-arrest-the-neighborhood-watchman-who-shot-trayvon-martin-2012-3

Now the interesting question to be explored on other gun related sites is, if you're Z and these guys show up and try to arrest you, can you cap them?
Answer of course:in Texas, a lot...

Why don't you tell those guys there is no racial component to the situation (meaning the entire situation, not just the shooting). I'm sure they will believe you.

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:This is helpful
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-black-militia-group-says-it-plans-to-arrest-the-neighborhood-watchman-who-shot-trayvon-martin-2012-3

Now the interesting question to be explored on other gun related sites is, if you're Z and these guys show up and try to arrest you, can you cap them?
Answer of course:in Texas, a lot...

Why don't you tell those guys there is no racial component to the situation (meaning the entire situation, not just the shooting). I'm sure they will believe you.

I make it policy not to converse with racists. Thanks anyway.





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GF of victim now testifying he was on the phone with her. This still doesn't say who started any physical altercation (Z' argument), but it supports that the defendant actually confronted the teenager. That certainly doesn't help his case.

Martin was shot and killed while walking to his father's fiancee's house in Sanford after a trip to a nearby convenience store February 26. Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, has acknowledged shooting Martin.

Although she did not hear the shooting, minutes earlier Martin told her someone was following him, and that he was trying to get away, Crump said.

The girl heard someone ask Martin what he was doing, and heard Martin ask why the person was following him, Crump said. The girl then got the impression that there was an altercation in which the earpiece fell out of Martin's ear and the phone went out, Crump said.

dogma wrote:Really?

Its disputed that the teenager was visibly a black teenager?

Perhaps Zimmerman is just one of those people who cannot see color. (5:00)

Even if the teenager did start the fight, what does that prove? If you were walking to the shops at night in a rough area and some creep gets out of a car and starts following you...

This is probably the very reason that the 911 operator told him not to follow the lad and leave it to the police.

This may be a rough neighbourhood with high crime, but in this case the most dangerous person on the street was a guy carrying a gun looking to deal out vigilante justice.

Various details collected here...
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/18/446768/what-everyone-should-know-about-about-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/

Of course he's probably a lone nut, the real problem is the the police force and their dubious approach to handling the investigation.

If the kid had been white, he wouldn't have shot him. Besides, saying you have black friends does not make it okay to shoot black people.

Even if the teenager did start the fight, what does that prove? If you were walking to the shops at night in a rough area and some creep gets out of a car and starts following you...

(NOTE: This is NOT tied to the perquisite case)

If the teenager starts fisticuffs that supports a defendant's claim that they are acting in self defense, and that they were in reasoble fear of death or grievous bodily harm.
Its a piece of evidence.

Just as someone can't just blast away, someone else can't start a fight and be free from potential consequences resulting from that fight. If the penumbra of facts, including both shooter and shootie's physical states, support that reasonable fear, then the claim of legally justified self defense is supported.

Now as you noted, in the real world, following someone can be bad and supports an argument they may make to the same claim. But we should remember, just following someone is not criminal. Security officers do it. Cops do it. Bystanders witnessing crimes have done.
On a what should you do basis-
Reporting the teenager: fine.
FOllowing the teenager in the vehicle while on the line. Generally ok dpeending on circumstances.
Confronting someone - you just crossed the line.



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LoneLictor wrote:If the kid had been white, he wouldn't have shot him.

You have zero proof of that, just smoke out your ass. Here's the newflash. To neighborhood Batman, hooligan looking teenagers in hoodies in the middle of the day (remember this was during school hours as the kid was suspended from school) look suspicious regardless of how tanned they are.

Frazzled wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

LoneLictor wrote:If the kid had been white, he wouldn't have shot him.

You have zero proof of that, just smoke out your ass. Here's the newflash. To neighborhood Batman, hooligan looking teenagers in hoodies in the middle of the day (remember this was during school hours as the kid was suspended from school) look suspicious regardless of how tanned they are.

Yeah, I have zero proof. I'm just basing my opinion off of similar instances where crazy old white guys have done stuff like that. And you have zero proof for your opinion too. As you said about me, all you have is smoke outta yer ass.

Also, imagine what I'd be like if he was white. The guy's dad says he has, "black friends." Imagine if you shot a white person and said, "I have white friends! I'm innocent!"

LoneLictor wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

LoneLictor wrote:If the kid had been white, he wouldn't have shot him.

You have zero proof of that, just smoke out your ass. Here's the newflash. To neighborhood Batman, hooligan looking teenagers in hoodies in the middle of the day (remember this was during school hours as the kid was suspended from school) look suspicious regardless of how tanned they are.

Yeah, I have zero proof. I'm just basing my opinion off of similar instances where crazy old white guys have done stuff like that. And you have zero proof for your opinion too. As you said about me, all you have is smoke outta yer ass.

Also, imagine what I'd be like if he was white. The guy's dad says he has, "black friends." Imagine if you shot a white person and said, "I have white friends! I'm innocent!"

1. He wasn't a white guy.
2. I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just not the one making an assumption on no facts that brands someone a racist.
3. White guys getting shot happens all the time. Sometimes we get set on fire too.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/05/teenagers-set-boy-on-fire_n_1320993.html

When he called 911 and was told to stand down, his words were "No, they always get away."

A question to ask is who does he mean by "they"? People wearing hoodies, people eating skittles, or black people?

From reading a lot of the news he has a history of picking out black people, claiming a black family in the neighborhood stole the bikes they owned as an instance.

d-usa wrote:When he called 911 and was told to stand down, his words were "No, they always get away."

A question to ask is who does he mean by "they"? People wearing hoodies, people eating skittles, or black people?

From reading a lot of the news he has a history of picking out black people, claiming a black family in the neighborhood stole the bikes they owned as an instance.

People breaking into houses in his neighborhood.

d-usa wrote:When he called 911 and was told to stand down, his words were "No, they always get away."

followed by F*****g C***s under his breath

A question to ask is who does he mean by "they"? People wearing hoodies, people eating skittles, or black people?

From reading a lot of the news he has a history of picking out black people, claiming a black family in the neighborhood stole the bikes they owned as an instance.

he was also 100lb and 10 years the boys senior. I think there were multiple opportunity before it the kid attacked him to stop him before resolving to shooting him: I mean just drawing the gun would make most people stop never mind a warning shot into the air or ground or if it is really needed the attackers arm or leg.
There is no way this guy isn't racist.
He lived in a gated community: the kid was visiting his dad: how else could he get in?

The kid was also walking on the street, when he was being followed by a vehicle. Then that vehicle suddenly stopped and a man started to follow him. Said man started to confront him.

If that kid was old enough and had a CWL he would have been in the right to shoot Mr. Z. I wonder if he would still be on the street in that situation.

You never, ever ever do warning shots. Thats Hollywood nonsense.

Further, if they are struggling there isn't that sort of distance.

Further, if Z is able bodied and outweighs the teen by 100 lbs (assuming its not all fat and not otherwise having a medical condition) unless teen gets him in some sort of Klingon Death Grip then there is not sufficient grounds for a good shoot (at least in Texas).

Thats why all the racism stuff isn't necessary in this case. The available facts are grievous and indicting without that.

d-usa wrote:If that kid was old enough and had a CWL he would have been in the right to shoot Mr. Z. I wonder if he would still be on the street in that situation.

He'd have been completely in the right if he shot Zimmerman.

And this is the lesson to learn from all of this. If you're in Florida and feel threatened, start shooting before the other guy feels threatened and shoots first.

Frazzled wrote:1. He wasn't a white guy.

In the same sense this guy (Ramon Estevez aka Martin Sheen) is also not a white guy.

Here's his actual picture. Judge for yourself.

Grakmar wrote:

d-usa wrote:If that kid was old enough and had a CWL he would have been in the right to shoot Mr. Z. I wonder if he would still be on the street in that situation.

He'd have been completely in the right if he shot Zimmerman.

And this is the lesson to learn from all of this. If you're in Florida and feel threatened, start shooting before the other guy feels threatened and shoots first.

And if there is one thing that I learned when taking my concealed carry class it is this: Drawing your gun is ALWAYS your very last option. The first step is to have situational awareness and notice any threads early and then attempt to remove yourself from the situation if safely able to do so. Chasing after the thread to begin with makes any attempt at using self-defense as justification laughable.


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Grakmar wrote:Here's his actual picture. Judge for yourself.

I like the shade of "outstanding citizen orange" of his clothes in that picture I hope that is County Clothing(TM) or else he just has horrible taste.

Zimmerman would make a good Inquisitor.

d-usa wrote:And if there is one thing that I learned when taking my concealed carry class it is this: Drawing your gun is ALWAYS your very last option. The first step is to have situational awareness and notice any threads early and then attempt to remove yourself from the situation if safely able to do so. Chasing after the thread to begin with makes any attempt at using self-defense as justification laughable.

That depends on the state. In Oklahoma, you have no duty to retreat at all if you're in your home, car, or business. In Florida, you can be absolutely anywhere, and as long as you're not engaging in a crime, you can use deadly force with no duty to retreat.

d-usa wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Here's his actual picture. Judge for yourself.
I like the shade of "outstanding citizen orange" of his clothes in that picture I hope that is County Clothing(TM) or else he just has horrible taste.

Yeah, that's a mug shot from a previous arrest.

Grakmar wrote:Here's his actual picture. Judge for yourself.

How is that Hispanic (White)? I think we all know the categories are flawed, but a good deal of the articles I read all said Hispanic (White). The only reason to make such a distinction is when the person looks European (ie white) but is of South American origin, meaning they have a Conquistador somewhere down the line. Until the picture was released I could only go by the multiple descriptions given. Still, it doesn't change much as it is still two different ethnic groups involved, as far as that is concerned. I still don't believe it is a hate crime, but I do think profiling was involved on the part of Z, which is not illegal. That isn't going to matter much to the community in the area who are just as pissed at the authorities as they are at Z for appearing apathetic.

I still haven't found any articles that say that there was a crime wave going on in the gated community so I'm not sure where that comes from. Anyone got a link to a reputable source that has statistics for that? I will continue to look.

If the suspect was Black and the victim was White...would it be a hate crime?

ZImmerman doesn't have to be some "all black people are this and that" kind of racist, but it is just stupid that anyone could assume that race didn't play a role in what happened. He was clearly prejudiced when it came to skin color.

Mr Hyena wrote:If the suspect was Black and the victim was White...would it be a hate crime?

It probably wouldn't be, but you can be sure that the suspect wouldn't of just been let go.

I think they said that the Florida "hold your ground" law will make it very difficult to prosecute in this case.

From what I gather, if you claim that it was self defence then you usually walk.

Grakmar wrote:

d-usa wrote:If that kid was old enough and had a CWL he would have been in the right to shoot Mr. Z. I wonder if he would still be on the street in that situation.

He'd have been completely in the right if he shot Zimmerman.

And this is the lesson to learn from all of this. If you're in Florida and feel threatened, start shooting before the other guy feels threatened and shoots first.

only if you want to go to jail for a long time.


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Alexzandvar wrote:Zimmerman would make a good Inquisitor.

I hear the teachers always harassed him for passing notes.


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Mr Hyena wrote:If the suspect was Black and the victim was White...would it be a hate crime?

Hispanics have their own special interests and census form notation. I'd proffer shooting someone is on its face a hate crime.


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Ma55ter_fett wrote:I think they said that the Florida "hold your ground" law will make it very difficult to prosecute in this case.

From what I gather, if you claim that it was self defence then you usually walk.

Thats inaccurate. You can't be in the furtherance of a crime at the time. Further, you still have to apply reasonable person standards. the law was put in place to prevent criminals and overzealous prosecutors from suing people who didn't flee as NY law requires.

Mr Hyena wrote:If the suspect was Black and the victim was White...would it be a hate crime?

It isn't a hate crime now, so why would it be then? If a black person were to kill a white person just becuase they were a white person it would fall under a hate crime. Here the question is whether he assumed the kid was a criminal becuase he was black, or was more quick to go to lethal force because the kid was black. Those are more questions for society to talk about, but aren't criminal as far as prosecution goes.