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who is Hispanic FYI

He is Hispanic (White), meaning Hispanic like Martin Sheen, not chicano like Goerge Lopez.

got into fisticuffs with the youngin for some reason

The reason would be that he saw a young black man and chased him down with a gun after being told by authorities to do exactly the opposite.

from what I know:
- Zimmerman sees the kid and calls 911
- He then claims he is acting suspiciously
- he then is told not to pursue him
- Zimmerman pursues the kid and then pulls a gun and kills him.

Also on the police call you can hear him say f ing c ns.
Seems like a cut and dry case: unfortuneatly the local PD seem to not care. If it was the reverse situation the Black guy would be in jail and charged by now.

More evidence against Zimmerman pops up

The kid was on his cellphone and people heard the incident.

Their Neighborhood Watch handbook specifically states :

It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers. And they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles.

This is also another article that doesn't mention some crime wave in the neighborhood. Even when I first read about this a few weeks ago there was no mention of some crime wave in the neighborhood. The only place I have seen that is in one of the posts in this thread.

Ahtman wrote:

who is Hispanic FYI

He is Hispanic (White), meaning Hispanic like Martin Sheen, not chicano like Goerge Lopez.

got into fisticuffs with the youngin for some reason

The reason would be that he saw a young black man and chased him down with a gun after being told by authorities to do exactly the opposite.

No, meaning he speaks Spanish and just happens to have a German sounding name.

Frazzled wrote:No, meaning he speaks Spanish and just happens to have a German sounding name.

We don't know that he speaks Spanish; Hispanic is not a synonym for bilingual. I'm not sure what good it does anyway to bring it up that he was pf Spanish descent, as that that still counted as European to most. Would you feel better if it had been phrased that a man of European (Spain) descent shot a kid of African descent becuase he was eating some candy and talking to his girlfriend while walking back to his relatives house?

Zimmerman is clearly in the wrong here, IMO, and deserves to be punished.

But, Florida law is absolutely insane. Between the ridiculous laws allowing the carrying of concealed weapons, the "stand your ground" law, and the burden of proof for self defense on the state and not the accused, there's no way Zimmerman is going to jail.

As long as this law remains on the books, the body count will continue to climb with police and prosecutors unable to punish anyone. It may even get to the point where it's a "reasonable belief" to think that anyone around may misinterpret your actions and be able to justifiably kill you. Once that happens, cold-blooded murder will be completely legal in Florida.

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:No, meaning he speaks Spanish and just happens to have a German sounding name.

We don't know that he speaks Spanish; Hispanic is not a synonym for bilingual. I'm not sure what good it does anyway to bring it up that he was pf Spanish descent, as that that still counted as European to most. Would you feel better if it had been phrased that a man of European (Spain) descent shot a kid of African descent becuase he was eating some candy and talking to his girlfriend while walking back to his relatives house?

We do actually. His dad said so on NPR this morning. Remember this is a widely viewed story and has actually been ongoing for some time.
Not sure what the rest of all that you posted was about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/shooting-of-florida-youth-prompts-calls-for-federal-investigation/2012/03/19/gIQA1HZ6NS_story.html

Here we go, from the Washington Post

Last week, Zimmerman’s father released a statement to the Orlando Sentinel saying that his son did not try to pursue or confront Martin. And he disputed allegations that his son targeted Martin because he was black.

“George is a Spanish-speaking minority with many black family members and friends,” Robert Zimmerman wrote. “He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever.”

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grakmar wrote:Zimmerman is clearly in the wrong here, IMO, and deserves to be punished.

But, Florida law is absolutely insane. Between the ridiculous laws allowing the carrying of concealed weapons, the "stand your ground" law, and the burden of proof for self defense on the state and not the accused, there's no way Zimmerman is going to jail.

As long as this law remains on the books, the body count will continue to climb with police and prosecutors unable to punish anyone. It may even get to the point where it's a "reasonable belief" to think that anyone around may misinterpret your actions and be able to justifiably kill you. Once that happens, cold-blooded murder will be completely legal in Florida.

So says the guy from the city with murder as a recreation passtime, and effecitvely no 2nd Amendment Rights.
This has nothing to do with anything you said. It has everything to do with what actually happened.

Was Nicholas Angel involved?

Someone explain why FBI are being asked to get involved. Isnt this a state jurisdictional matter if local PD need external 'help'.

dogma wrote:Was Nicholas Angel involved?

For the greater good.

Orlanth wrote:Someone explain why FBI are being asked to get involved. Isnt this a state jurisdictional matter if local PD need external 'help'.

There is a strategy by the federal government to get involved in high profile cases, where the argument is that the civil rights of the victim were violated. I guess murderizing them qualifies as a violation of their rights.

Frazzled wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Someone explain why FBI are being asked to get involved. Isnt this a state jurisdictional matter if local PD need external 'help'.

There is a strategy by the federal government to get involved in high profile cases, where the argument is that the civil rights of the victim were violated. I guess murderizing them qualifies as a violation of their rights.

Central government needs this like a hole in the head.

Too much anger, not enough info = a powderkeg with a fuse of unknown length.

Zimmerman is already claiming self defense so he may say he was turned upon and stood his ground. This may well be sufficient for reasonable doubt given a good enough lawyer, cue civil unrest.

Kanluwen wrote:If you want to present it properly:

The teenager who was shot was visiting Sanford(i.e. "not a resident" or someone that this "neighborhood watch captain" would have encountered), and the "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain" saw him walking while wearing a hoodie in an area which recently had a month long spat of break-ins.

Being that I live in the area, your assumptions are entire incorrect.

He was wearing a hoodie because 1) it isn't illegal to do so and 2) it was RAINING.

Zimmerman is one of "those guys", as he calls 9/11 on average 36 times a week for things like, "my neighbor kept his garage door open" and "Suspect kids are walking around with their pants around their ankles".

He is a paranoid racist in a town where the authority has a decades long history of racism towards blacks. Nothing more, nothing less.

Frazzled wrote:We do actually. His dad said so on NPR this morning. Remember this is a widely viewed story and has actually been ongoing for some time.
Not sure what the rest of all that you posted was about.

And yours is the first that mentioned that he spoke Spanish, not that it matters at all, and it still does not mean that Hispanic is a synonym for bilingual. Hispanic (White) is person of Spanish descent, and is what has been in all the descriptions of Zimmerman. You brought up his ethnicity, I just clarified it.

"I have black friends" still isn't a good enough reason to shoot a teen.

Feds can get involved for a lot of reasons, and not always improperly or becuase of some big government conspiracy. If the local police force covered up or ignored the crime, either intentionally or through gross neglect, then this kids rights were violated, on multiple levels.

Orlanth wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Someone explain why FBI are being asked to get involved. Isnt this a state jurisdictional matter if local PD need external 'help'.

There is a strategy by the federal government to get involved in high profile cases, where the argument is that the civil rights of the victim were violated. I guess murderizing them qualifies as a violation of their rights.

Central government needs this like a hole in the head.

Too much anger, not enough info = a powderkeg with a fuse of unknown length.

Zimmerman is already claiming self defense so he may say he was turned upon and stood his ground. This may well be sufficient for reasonable doubt given a good enough lawyer, cue civil unrest.

Well civil rights violations are substantially different animal so I don't know. Standards are less and state concepts don't really apply.
Usually this is only in play against bad cops (ROdney King) or racist types, so slightly surprising. Or not depending on your paranoia level / view of the current DOJ.
NOTE: Frazzled thinks Z would get punded hard under state criminal statutes if enugh evidence can be obtained. Of course thats the same problems with federal prosecution.

Ok, Well I myself do not like an armed populace(I love the idea, but people aare stupid) because things like this happen.
Even worse is someone armed who think of themselves as a lawman. Police go through massive training. This would have ended differently if it was an officer.
If they really did want their neighborhood secure, talk to an officer. See if you cant get them to make more rounds in your neighborhood, The very idea that officers are watching is a massive deterent.

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:We do actually. His dad said so on NPR this morning. Remember this is a widely viewed story and has actually been ongoing for some time.
Not sure what the rest of all that you posted was about.

And yours is the first that mentioned that he spoke Spanish, not that it matters at all, and it still does not mean that Hispanic is a synonym for bilingual. Hispanic (White) is person of Spanish descent, and is what has been in all the descriptions of Zimmerman. You brought up his ethnicity, I just clarified it.

"I have black friends" still isn't a good enough reason to shoot a teen.

Feds can get involved for a lot of reasons, and not always improperly or becuase of some big government conspiracy. If the local police force covered up or ignored the crime, either intentionally or through gross neglect, then this kids rights were violated, on multiple levels.

I brought it up because people were throwing around white/black nonsense. Don't get confused by the name.

Frazzled wrote:I brought it up because people were throwing around white/black nonsense. Don't get confused by the name.

No one accused Zimmerman of being white, or blamed white people. Ethnicity was postulated to be a motivating factor in Z's paranoia, and even knowing that it was Hispanic(White) that shot a Black kid, hasn't changed that at all. There is still a racial component to it either way.

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I brought it up because people were throwing around white/black nonsense. Don't get confused by the name.

No one accused Zimmerman of being white, or blamed white people. Ethnicity was postulated to be a motivating factor in Z's paranoia, and even knowing that it was Hispanic(White) that shot a Black kid, hasn't changed that at all. There is still a racial component to it either way.

Or not.

Frazzled wrote:Or not.

A non-black guy shot a black kid. There is a racial component. Just not wanting there to be one won't make it so.

Frazzled wrote:
NOTE: Frazzled thinks Z would get punded hard under state criminal statutes if enough evidence can be obtained. Of course thats the same problems with federal prosecution.

Bold heighlight.

Zimmerman admitted pulling the trigger, its the why which will be problematical. With no witnesses to support the prosecution it may be hard top prove. It could be easier if a 'self defense' shooter didn't have a lot of bonus rights under Florida law.

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Or not.

A non-black guy shot a black kid. There is a racial component. Just not wanting there to be one won't make it so.

I reject that. Under that mantra everything is racial. Absence actual evidence, its not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orlanth wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
NOTE: Frazzled thinks Z would get punded hard under state criminal statutes if enough evidence can be obtained. Of course thats the same problems with federal prosecution.

Bold heighlight.

Zimmerman admitted pulling the trigger, its the why which will be problematical. With no witnesses to support the prosecution it may be hard top prove. It could be easier if a 'self defense' shooter didn't have a lot of bonus rights under Florida law.

And the feds have the same problem.
No justice no Peas!

Orlanth wrote:Someone explain why FBI are being asked to get involved. Isnt this a state jurisdictional matter if local PD need external 'help'.

There are several reasons the FBI may have some level of jurisdiction. The FBI can take a case if their is significant evidence someones civil rights have been violated, as they are responsible for enforcing federal civil rights laws (including some hate crime laws). They also can investigate "color of law" types of crimes, if there is the possibility that local law enforcement participated in a coverup.

I'm not saying any of the above scenarios happened, or didn't happen - just that those are the grounds for the FBI looking into a case to determine if they should\could get involved. Finally, and the most likely one - local law enforcement can request FBI assistance. In this case, the governor of Florida, Rick Scott, directed the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to allocate "appropriate resources" to the case. While it's speculation to say they asked for FBI assistance, it's probably pretty good speculation.

Frazzled wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Or not.

A non-black guy shot a black kid. There is a racial component. Just not wanting there to be one won't make it so.

I reject that.

That doesn't change anything. It isn't "should there be a racial component", there will be a racial component, for right or wrong. It is already there. You can deny the sun in the sky but it is still there as well. Racial component doesn't mean "the guy was a KKK member", but whether race will play an element in the incident, which includes discussion of the incident.

Even you actually know that race is a consideration since you felt the need to point out the man was Hispanic, even though no one had claimed he was white. It is already in the dialogue of what happened, you can't just wish it away becuase you don't want to believe that people aren't going to consider it. Even by talking about whether race should be talked about we are adding a racial component to the dialogue.

Perhaps you are solely referring to the altercation in specific, which is still questionable as to racial issues, and that is where the confusion is coming from. I'm talking about the entire incident, including the politics, news coverage, and overall discussion.

My personal opinion is that race played some part in it, though not overtly. I don't think he wanted to go shoot a black guy or anything that blatant or overt. I do think if it had been a white teen, or hispanic (white) teen, it is likely that he wouldn't have been as quick to jump to the 'criminal' conclusion and would not have been as belligerent in his treatment of the situation. Even so, that isn't something you can prosecute for, and if he is arrested and prosecuted, it will be becuase he chased down a teenager and shot him in cold blood. He attacks a teen who fights back, then shoots him and claims self defense. If someone chased you down and tried to grab and question you, wouldn't you be in fight or flight mode as well?

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Or not.

A non-black guy shot a black kid. There is a racial component. Just not wanting there to be one won't make it so.

I reject that.

That doesn't change anything. It isn't "should there be a racial component", there will be a racial component, for right or wrong. It is already there. You can deny the sun in the sky but it is still there as well. Racial component doesn't mean "the guy was a KKK member", but whether race will play an element in the incident, which includes discussion of the incident.

Even you actually know that race is a consideration since you felt the need to point out the man was Hispanic, even though no one had claimed he was white. It is already in the dialogue of what happened, you can't just wish it away becuase you don't want to believe that people aren't going to consider it. Even by talking about whether race should be talked about we are adding a racial component to the dialogue.

What are you on about? WHy the hostility? I merely remarked

The argument is that Zimmerman (who is Hispanic FYI) got into fisticuffs with the youngin for some reason, and capped him in self defense.

As the argument at issue, that some sort of altercation started, and that Z is stating it was self defense. You're the one going on and on about the hispanic. Work through your issues somewhere else.

Then everything has a racial component, and as a consuence its not more important than any other case. Sorry, absent actual evidence its not special.

Frazzled wrote:Then everything has a racial component, and as a consequence its not more important than any other case. Sorry, absent actual evidence its not special.

Choosing not to look at the specifics of the situation are your prerogative, and so is coming to a poorly thought out conclusion as well. Evidence shows a non-black guy saw a black teen and thought he was up to no good, armed himself and chased him down, and shot him. There are a myriad of studies that show that black men in America of all economic and educational backgrounds are consistently more likely to be treated as criminals first and questioned second. The evidence and history are there, I can't help it if you choose not to want to see it.

No one has said this case is solely important becuase there is a racial component. This is news becuase a teenager was shot for doing nothing wrong, which a is tragedy, and then compounde3d by the fact the guy who did it was never held or charged. This would still be news even if it the players involved had been of the same ethnicity, but since they weren't it just adds another dimension to it.

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Then everything has a racial component, and as a consequence its not more important than any other case. Sorry, absent actual evidence its not special.

Choosing not to look at the specifics of the situation are your prerogative, and so is coming to a poorly thought out conclusion as well. Evidence shows a non-black guy saw a black teen and thought he was up to no good, armed himself and chased him down, and shot him. There are a myriad of studies that show that black men in America of all economic and educational backgrounds are consistently more likely to be treated as criminals first and questioned second. The evidence and history are there, I can't help it if you choose not to want to see it.

No one has said this case is solely important becuase there is a racial component. This is news becuase a teenager was shot for doing nothing wrong, which a is tragedy, and then compounde3d by the fact the guy who did it was never held or charged. This would still be news even if it the players involved had been of the same ethnicity, but since they weren't it just adds another dimension to it.

NO.

Evidence shows that local goody goody saw a teenager, called 911, and followed him against advice of the 911 operator. Everything else is disputed and the subject of any potential criminal prosecution.

Frazzled wrote:NO.

Maybe you are unaware of this, but putting a word in all caps doesn't change anything.

Frazzled wrote:Evidence shows that local goody goody saw a teenager, called 911, and followed him against advice of the 911 operator. Everything else is disputed and the subject of any potential criminal prosecution.

Since I think you passed it over earlier I wil restate:

Perhaps you are solely referring to the altercation in specific, which is still questionable as to racial issues, and that is where the confusion is coming from. I'm talking about the entire incident, including the politics, news coverage, and overall discussion.

And again, refuting any racial element is still discussion of race, and is a racial component to the discussion. Your are proving my point by trying to refute it. If it wasn't there, you wouldn't have to deny it.

Frazzled wrote:
Evidence shows that local goody goody saw a teenager, called 911, and followed him against advice of the 911 operator. Everything else is disputed and the subject of any potential criminal prosecution.

Really?

Its disputed that the teenager was visibly a black teenager?

I mean, if you can tell someone is a teenager, then I'm fairly certain you can also tell he was black.

No I am just denying you.

If you argue the sky is comprised of fluffy bunnies and used tampons, and I disputed that, it wouldn't mean that there's a component there, just that you are 1) drunk; or 2) wrong.


The case doesn't need the racial component. Boil it down a teenager got murderized by the local crime watch Batman wannabe who thought he was someone casing the place.

Batman wannabe says its self defense.

Its up to the jury to decide.