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Stopped funding the German war effort half way through the war. Then they pulled some strings and dragged America into the war and funded funded their efforts instead.

I think he meant (I hope he meant) that Hitler believed the Jews betrayed Germany in WWI.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Stopped funding the German war effort half way through the war. Then they pulled some strings and dragged America into the war and funded funded their efforts instead.

If you seriously believe that you're as crazy as a gak house rat and are probably one of the people that are the subject of this thread.

As Manhcu noted if thats just your theory on why Hitler was crazy because he believed that then I take it back.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Stopped funding the German war effort half way through the war. Then they pulled some strings and dragged America into the war and funded funded their efforts instead.

Wait do you actually believe that?

Manchu wrote:@Polonius

Your statement: "It's not the suffering that makes the holocaust so relevant, but the aftermath."

The relevance of the Holocaust is not contingent upon the existence of Israel except if one is only interested in the existence of Israel -- you know, like an Iranian president who denies that the Holocaust ever happened.

Really? I mean, the Holocaust is pretty unique, if only because the diaspora lead to jewish populations in many nations. It is the only genocide that was terrifyingly thorough in the elimination of one population (European Jews) while leaving a large and related population (American, Russian, and Middle Eastern Jews). This is why it has resonated so powerfully.

I was only arguing that one reason to focus on the Holocaust in an overview of human history, compared to other genocides, is that it led directly to later history, namely the state of Israel. It's not that Armenia, Tibtet, or Ukraine haven't had history, but not on the global stage.

Also, I can assure you that the whole Aryan business was built up around anti-semitism as a form of German nationalism.

No, that's just what the military generals believed. It was known as the "Stab in the back" theory, and many politicians in Germany and the armed forces believed it.


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Manchu wrote:Also, I can assure you that the whole Aryan business was built up around anti-semitism as a form of German nationalism.

Have you read Mein Kampf?

Polonius wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Polonius

Your statement: "It's not the suffering that makes the holocaust so relevant, but the aftermath."

The relevance of the Holocaust is not contingent upon the existence of Israel except if one is only interested in the existence of Israel -- you know, like an Iranian president who denies that the Holocaust ever happened.

Really? I mean, the Holocaust is pretty unique, if only because the diaspora lead to jewish populations in many nations. It is the only genocide that was terrifyingly thorough in the elimination of one population (European Jews) while leaving a large and related population (American, Russian, and Middle Eastern Jews). This is why it has resonated so powerfully.

I was only arguing that one reason to focus on the Holocaust in an overview of human history, compared to other genocides, is that it led directly to later history, namely the state of Israel. It's not that Armenia, Tibtet, or Ukraine haven't had history, but not on the global stage.

Glitch on one - Russian Jews (or I should say Soviet Jews), were actively slaughtered both in camps and "on site" as it were.


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DeadlySquirrel wrote:No, that's just what the military generals believed. It was known as the "Stab in the back" theory, and many politicians in Germany and the armed forces believed it.


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Manchu wrote:Also, I can assure you that the whole Aryan business was built up around anti-semitism as a form of German nationalism.

Have you read Mein Kampf?

OK then I apologize, you're just quoting the crazy theory and not agreeing with it (right?)

Manchu wrote:Also, I can assure you that the whole Aryan business was built up around anti-semitism as a form of German nationalism.

I'm not sure what you mean here. It seems that you're arguing that German nationalism was built around a set of negatives: "we're not Jews."

That seems odd to me. The Aryan movement had plenty of stuff that they grabbed unto, such as shared language, culture, etc.

I mean, there was anti-semticism long before there was a Germany, so that's not my argument.

Polonius wrote:I was only arguing that one reason to focus on the Holocaust in an overview of human history, compared to other genocides, is that it led directly to later history, namely the state of Israel.

but also:

Polonius wrote:It is the only genocide that was terrifyingly thorough in the elimination of one population (European Jews) while leaving a large and related population (American, Russian, and Middle Eastern Jews).

?

I agree that the existence of Israel one reason to "focus on" the Holocaust but you seem to be dancing around that being the only reason while simultaneously listing other reasons?

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Stopped funding the German war effort half way through the war. Then they pulled some strings and dragged America into the war and funded funded their efforts instead.

Was this before or after Nazi Atlantis?
I'm also fairly certain, in the 100% range that German Jews never funded the US war effort...what with being German and all.

Have you read Mein Kampf?

Nope. I did read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which is a completely much more rational dialectic.

Polonius wrote:It seems that you're arguing that German nationalism was built around a set of negatives: "we're not Jews."

Nope. I'm saying that hatred of Jews was a major, perhaps the major, galvinizing theme of post-1918 German nationalism. The Nazis capitalized on this and built their more broadly racist, social darwinist ideology around it.

Frazzled wrote:Glitch on one - Russian Jews (or I should say Soviet Jews), were actively slaughtered both in camps and "on site" as it were.

Oh, no doubt. But not as completely. Hardly any polish jews survived the war. Millions of russian Jews did.

My point is that entire populations and communities were lost, while enough of the culture survived to mourn the loss.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Have you read Mein Kampf?

Yes.

Yup, it's a real thing. I can't imagine what's wrong with these people. There are pictures, videos, testimonies, Court Cases... basically everything you need to prove anything.

I see it as an anti-semetic gesture, honestly. I don't think these people actually believe what they're telling themselves.

By Jews, they meant the Jewish banks. Like the Rothchilds. Not the German Jews.

Polonius wrote:
And that's the danger: because people have a fear of groupthink, that doubt enters people's minds.

Interestingly, that fear almost always leads to groupthink.

You fear being taken in by what they think, and are unwittingly taken in by what they* think.

Polonius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Glitch on one - Russian Jews (or I should say Soviet Jews), were actively slaughtered both in camps and "on site" as it were.

Oh, no doubt. But not as completely. Hardly any polish jews survived the war. Millions of russian Jews did.

My point is that entire populations and communities were lost, while enough of the culture survived to mourn the loss.

They escaped because they had the ability to get the heck out of there. The Polish didn't.

The Rothschilds were Germans as far as supporters of Anschluss would be concerned, had they (the Rothschilds) not been Jews or they (the supporters of Anschluss) not been Nazis.

Manchu wrote:

Polonius wrote:I was only arguing that one reason to focus on the Holocaust in an overview of human history, compared to other genocides, is that it led directly to later history, namely the state of Israel.

but also:

Polonius wrote:It is the only genocide that was terrifyingly thorough in the elimination of one population (European Jews) while leaving a large and related population (American, Russian, and Middle Eastern Jews).

?

I agree that the existence of Israel one reason to "focus on" the Holocaust but you seem to be dancing around that being the only reason while simultaneously listing other reasons?

I mean that, in 100 years, the Holocaust will still be known and studied due to the ramifications for 65+ years after it.

Obviously, there are plenty of reasons for individual narratives to focus on it, both in art and history.

I was addressing the idea that the Holocaust was disproportionately mentioned in history books, even those aimed at children. And giving a good reason why, regardless of who and how many vicitms there were.

It's the same reason we remember that there was a USS Maine, and that it sank in Havana over a hundred years ago.

Manchu wrote:

Polonius wrote:It seems that you're arguing that German nationalism was built around a set of negatives: "we're not Jews."

Nope. I'm saying that hatred of Jews was a major, perhaps the major, galvinizing theme of post-1918 German nationalism. The Nazis capitalized on this and built their more broadly racist, social darwinist ideology around it.

sorry, I read "national identity," when you said Nationalism.

I'd agree with this. It was something that protestents and catholics, and union members and industrialists, could all agree on.



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Frazzled wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Glitch on one - Russian Jews (or I should say Soviet Jews), were actively slaughtered both in camps and "on site" as it were.

Oh, no doubt. But not as completely. Hardly any polish jews survived the war. Millions of russian Jews did.

My point is that entire populations and communities were lost, while enough of the culture survived to mourn the loss.

They escaped because they had the ability to get the heck out of there. The Polish didn't.

Exactly. But an orphan has no family to mourn him.

When three out of seven children die, lots of people remember that lots of people died.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:By Jews, they meant the Jewish banks. Like the Rothchilds. Not the German Jews.

Dear God why would British Jews fund the war effort against the Germans?!

AustonT wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:By Jews, they meant the Jewish banks. Like the Rothchilds. Not the German Jews.

Dear God why would British Jews fund the war effort against the Germans?!

there are about 12 jokes that could get me banned to be made here.

Manchu wrote:@Polonius: I'm on board for your analysis that psychologically defective or immature people are manipulated by sinister demagogues. What I don't like is the "scientistic" explanation-cum-justification of the defect/immaturity/manipulation.

I wouldn't say they're psychologically defective, or immature, or even that the demagogues are sinister. It is a reality of democracy that politicians will have to convince people to endorse things they don't necessarily understand. This doesn't imply malice, even at the level of Holocaust denial. Iit implies that no one understands everything, and that most political issues are fundamentally intellectual; and that most people aren't so intellectual as to devote time to subjects that aren't relevant to them.

It is shockingly easy to make people do what you want when you have position, knowledge, and don't need specific people to do things. Even more so when the people in question view themselves as subject to some powerful, outside influence (corporations or government, primarily these days).

The trick comes when I need John to pull the lever, and not just any random person. And even then, there are ways to ensure it happens, they're just messier and more likely to involve being sinister.

AustonT wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:By Jews, they meant the Jewish banks. Like the Rothchilds. Not the German Jews.

Dear God why would British Jews fund the war effort against the Germans?!

Don't ask me, it was their theory.

I read something about how they were promised Palestine in return for funding the British war effort and bringing America into the war.

@Polonius: I think you're very much underestimating the scope of the Holocaust's relevance. I think the Holocaust is more of a cultural catastrophe for the Western World than the Armenian Genocide (dismissed as "Turks did it") or the treatment of Amerindians (dismissed as "no Western culture lost," "they were savages") because it was a complete meltdown at the heart of European civilization, with Westerners destroying Westerners in complete contradiction to the expectations of rationalized 19th-century intellectual life. It directly calls into question the narrative of modernism, all the way back to the middle ages. A significant portion of European history has to be completely reconsidered in light of the Holocaust.

Manchu wrote:So these people, skinheads and Iranians, are denying the Holocaust because they feel guilty for surviving it? Are there a lot of Holocaust deniers who are Jews or were actual captives?

i'm not restricting my view on denial to only those that publicise it. skin heads, neo-nazi's and likewise extremeists are clearly morons and our gene pool would be better off if THEY were gone. (ironic isn't it)

My point was, by in large, most of the german folks I know, don't speak of the Holocaust, or ignore it, out of shame from their country. (one of my best friends wife actually) she won't outright DENY that it happenned, but her comment is "its really painful and we don't want to remember it."

Especially since in my theory, it's common (if biased) people being manipulated by demagogues, using writings/ideas from the cranks.

And it's not all bad. The American revolution was fought and won thanks to demagogues.

And cranks are just people with a few normal traits (commitment to their ideas, ability to discern good from bad evidence, eagerness to share their ideas) that are simply present in harmful levels.

dogma wrote:I wouldn't say they're ...

My main concern is giving the phenomenon a "natural" patina. Polonius doesn't mean to excuse conspiracy theorists, I know. But Polonius also cannot control the way that the next person will pick up and use his genetic-evolutionary analogy, either. It's like how a person who says "only we have the truth" doesn't necessarily also say "and therefore you are expendable." But if the "only we have the truth" idea is current, we won't have to wait long for someone who thinks that everyone else is expendable.

Manchu wrote:@Polonius: I think you're very much underestimating the scope of the Holocaust's relevance. I think the Holocaust is more of a cultural catastrophe for the Western World than the Armenian Genocide (dismissed as "Turks did it") or the treatment of Amerindians (dismissed as "no Western culture lost," "they were savages") because it was a complete meltdown at the heart of European civilization, with Westerners destroying Westerners in complete contradiction to the expectations of rationalized 19th-century intellectual life. It directly calls into question the narrative of modernism, all the way back to the middle ages. A significant portion of European history has to be completely reconsidered in light of the Holocaust.

I'm really not.

I agree with all of those. Hell, I gave reasons and examples as to why it's important to us now.

Litreally all I was doing was showing that was at least one reason for it's relevance that had nothing do with what happened.

Much like the sinking of the Maine, or the Boston Massacre, or the Stonewall riots, there is a historical value to the event, regardless of whether millions died.

The fact that millions died, in a way that is well documented and remembered, gives it a huge importance.