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Polonius wrote:I'm really not.

Okay thanks for clarifying. The idea that the Holocaust is only relevant because Israel became a state is kind of plank of Holocaust denial so I thought its appearance needed to be challenged.

Well to be honest, whether it happened or not, the Jews tend to use it as an excuse for what they're doing to the Palestinians...

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Well to be honest, whether it happened or not, the Jews tend to use it as an excuse for what they're doing to the Palestinians...

I thought it was the incessant rocket attacks, and terrorist attacks.

Interesting bit, the PLO was formed before Israel took the Golan Heights/West Bank/Gaza....

Oh, so going into a country and taking their houses and forcing them into camps where they don't get enough food and water because a League of Nations bill gave them that country is ok? (Bare in mind that they took control of a sovereign nation before the terrorist attacks)

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Well to be honest, whether it happened or not, the Jews tend to use it as an excuse for what they're doing to the Palestinians...

I'm suspicious of this claim. I don't know many Jews so maybe I'm just not exposed to it but the only time I've heard of Jews justifying mistreatment of Palestinians via the Holocaust is from people who are critical of Jews.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Oh, so going into a country and taking their houses and forcing them into camps where they don't get enough food and water because a League of Nations bill gave them that country is ok? (Bare in mind that they took control of a sovereign nation before the terrorist attacks)

Israel took control of Israel before the terrorist attacks?

EDIT: ok lets not get off ito that thicket. I will say I have heard the Holocaust as an argument by Israelis about their militaristic stance, as well as Jewish organizations in defense of Jewish issues here.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

AustonT wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:By Jews, they meant the Jewish banks. Like the Rothchilds. Not the German Jews.

Dear God why would British Jews fund the war effort against the Germans?!

Don't ask me, it was their theory.

I read something about how they were promised Palestine in return for funding the British war effort and bringing America into the war.

A Theory that you have chosen to perpetuate here in this forum. If you can't or won't support it leave it in Atlantis where it belongs.

The facts are that the Zionist movements international organizations prior to and in the early years of WWI were overwhelmingly in support of the Central Powers, and Germany extensively recruited among Jewries beyond her borders. The pro-British minority of which the British Rothschild peerage supported (durr), used money and wartime communication troubles to dominate Jewries beyond the borders of the German Empire, in case your wondering that means Jews who weren't German who have this weird tendency to support nationalism in their own countries...you know like France,Britain, and America. The German Rothschild bank no longer exists because it went down swinging with the Empire it supported.

The state of Israel didn't exist until after the First World War... And it was given to them by the League of Nations.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Well to be honest, whether it happened or not, the Jews tend to use it as an excuse for what they're doing to the Palestinians...

I don't know many Jews that do that.

I know a whole lot of other people that use the antisemitism as a shield for Israel in much the same way that lots of people use racism as a shield for black people, but its almost never explicitly about the Holocaust just as its almost never explicitly about slavery when racism is invoked.


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DeadlySquirrel wrote:The state of Israel didn't exist until after the First World War... And it was given to them by the League of Nations.

That's completely wrong, unless you meant "second" and "Britain".

Manchu wrote:I'm suspicious of this claim. I don't know many Jews so maybe I'm just not exposed to it but the only time I've heard of Jews justifying mistreatment of Palestinians via the Holocaust is from people who are critical of Jews.

It would not be unfair to say that some of the current generation of Israelis mistreat Palestinians as a matter of course. I happen to know an IDF captain ( A former American Jew) who defends Jewish settlements in the POT (its a constitutional requirement whether the gov't supports it or not) she has had to put young Jewish soldiers on report, strip rank, etc. because of mistreatment of Palestinians. Meanwhile on the border between other settlements where the "wall" is chicken wire Jews and Palestinians converse, barter, and live peacefully. But we digress from the issue at hand. Suffice to say being critical of the state of Israel is not equal to antisemitism.


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DeadlySquirrel wrote:The state of Israel didn't exist until after the First World War... And it was given to them by the League of Nations.

The State of Israel didn't exist until May,1948. Don't let facts get in your way though.

What's interesting to me about Holocaust denial is that is'actually the final and greatest act of genocide.

There's something Orwellian about not only destroying a people, but denying that they existed in the first place.

Indeed, let's not get caught in that semantic trap where anyone who criticizes Israel is an antisemite.

Unless you want to call the US government an antisemite zionist authority for defending Israel but also criticizing the settlements.

Polonius wrote:What's interesting to me about Holocaust denial is that is'actually the final and greatest act of genocide.

There's something Orwellian about not only destroying a people, but denying that they existed in the first place.

During the rise of Humanism European scholars very seriously debated the "humanity" of Jews. Yes, they actually debated whether Jews were human beings or not. There's also a custom in Imperial Rome where a person wasn't just killed he was erased, images destroyed, name rubbed out. Happened to a couple Emperors if memory serves, why couldn't the same thing theoretically happen to the Jews? Especially in the 40's it's entirely possible the Jews could have disappeared entirely after WW2.

Melissia wrote:Indeed, let's not get caught in that semantic trap where anyone who criticizes Israel is an antisemite.

Yeah, it's good to avoid that but no one was saying it so I'm not sure what AustonT was getting at.

DeadlySquirrel said Jews use the Holocaust to justify their treatment of Palestinians. My response is that I never heard a Jew do this. But I have heard anti-semites say this about Jews.

I haven't. I've heard "they're all filthy terrorists" though.

Mind you that was in the US. Not sure what they're using across the pond.

Melissia wrote:I haven't. I've heard "they're all filthy terrorists" though.

Yeah, but that's quite different from saying anything about the Holocaust. Again, we're circling around the actual topic here. Part of the answer to OP's question is that some people deny the Holocaust because they oppose the state of Israel. The notion that Jews generally use the Holocaust to justify Israel's relationship with Palestine is animated by the same spirit that animates Holocaust denial among opponents of Israel -- namely, antisemitism. It's a long step between that and using anti-Semitism as a shield in the way that dogma mentioned above.

Manchu wrote: My response is that I never heard a Jew do this. But I have heard anti-semites say this about Jews.

it's a fascinating phenomenon. I have a facebook friend that's a very casual gaming aquaintenance. He is apparently the world's leading expert on how "liberals" think. A third of his status updates are somehow explaining how they are stupid/brainwashed/evil/impotent/etc.

I have a good friend that literally was in the Green Party leadership for New York State. He's a giant hippie. And he doesn't live up to that sort of stereotype.

Of course, the irony was his last update, asking why liberals are always so full of hate...


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Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:I haven't. I've heard "they're all filthy terrorists" though.

Yeah, but that's quite different from saying anything about the Holocaust. Again, we're circling around the actual topic here. Part of the answer to OP's question is that some people deny the Holocaust because they oppose the state of Israel. The notion that Jews generally use the Holocaust to justify Israel's relationship with Palestine is animated by the same spirit that animates Holocaust denial among opponents of Israel -- namely, antisemitism. It's a long step between that and using anti-Semitism as a shield in the way that dogma mentioned above.

There certainly aren't a lot of people that talk about how rich and wonderful jewish culture is, but then point out that the Holocaust was grossly exaggerated.

Now part of this is how toxic the Nazis are, and making the claim that they weren't as bad as you think isn't exacly a savvy move.

Melissia wrote:I haven't. I've heard "they're all filthy terrorists" though.

Mind you that was in the US. Not sure what they're using across the pond.

Something along the lines of "פלשתינים בעלי חיים"

Polonius wrote: ... making the claim that they weren't as bad as you think isn't exacly a savvy move.

And yet this is a universal truth as far as the internet is concerned. I think it's some kind of redshift corrolary to the blueshift described by Godwin's Law.

AustonT wrote:

Melissia wrote:I haven't. I've heard "they're all filthy terrorists" though.

Mind you that was in the US. Not sure what they're using across the pond.

Something along the lines of "פלשתינים בעלי חיים"

*pops it in google translate*

Ugh. Reminds me of when the school nazi called this black guy a "jungle bunny" amongst other animal-based epithets (and subsequently got his ass kicked, but it was still an unpleasant situation for everyone).

"The School Nazi" lol

It's a fairly common way the radical Orthodox refer to the Palestinians if they don't just drop "Philistin'im" of the front and refer to them as "the animals"

Melissia wrote:
Ugh. Reminds me of when the school nazi called this black guy a "jungle bunny" amongst other animal-based epithets (and subsequently got his ass kicked, but it was still an unpleasant situation for everyone).

Unpleasant?

If you sold beer you would have a new spectator sport.

Manchu wrote:"The School Nazi" lol

Yes.

The school nazi. He actually sent in twenty bucks to get his name registered with the US nazi party and had a card in his wallet.

Then he went and joined the Marines and got a black sergeant and wrote tear-stained letters home as he tried desperately to make it through basic.

Ah...the military where black,white, brown, or other your all gaks. Or green...whatever the Marines tell kids these days.

dogma wrote:

Melissia wrote:
Ugh. Reminds me of when the school nazi called this black guy a "jungle bunny" amongst other animal-based epithets (and subsequently got his ass kicked, but it was still an unpleasant situation for everyone).

Unpleasant?

If you sold beer you would have a new spectator sport.

I don't think the event would last that long. Back in ancient times, when dinosaurs roamed the countryside, the last time I heard that phrase in Real Life (TM), the only redneck trash that ever uttered that were always skinny little weasel faced s who would only whisper it in mixed company, because they would get mauled utterly.

Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:

Melissia wrote:
Ugh. Reminds me of when the school nazi called this black guy a "jungle bunny" amongst other animal-based epithets (and subsequently got his ass kicked, but it was still an unpleasant situation for everyone).

Unpleasant?

If you sold beer you would have a new spectator sport.

I don't think the event would last that long. Back in ancient times, when dinosaurs roamed the countryside, the last time I heard that phrase in Real Life (TM), the only redneck trash that ever uttered that were always skinny little weasel faced s who would only whisper it in mixed company, because they would get mauled utterly.

Not all sports need to have evenly matched opponents. Sometimes, you just want to sit back, relax, and watch an evil person get punished.

Like Celibrity Death match?

All I said was that the state of Israel didn't exist until after the first world war. 1948 is after the first world war, right?

DeadlySquirrel wrote:The state of Israel didn't exist until after the First World War... And it was given to them by the League of Nations.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:All I said was that the state of Israel didn't exist until after the first world war. 1948 is after the first world war, right?

Oh, you dashing devil you!

Of course, the league of nations didn't give Israel to anybody, so I think you're grasp of history is exposed as weak, even if you what you said happened to be partially correct.

It would be like saying, "I lost my wallet after the battle of Gettysburg."