Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2012/04/17 02:02:56
Subject: 'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
Experiment 626 wrote:
I just can't get over how the media especially are blaming all the shinanigans on the Pens.
Welcome to Vancouver media, the only place in the world where the Sedins aren't whiny bitches.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
generalgrog wrote:I just watched the highlights from game 3 Pens-Flyers. I thought Schenns hit was fine, it was that crosscheck to the adams apple that was out of line from Adams.
The Schenn hit was dirty as feth, he either aimed high deliberately or he's too stupid (read: physically incompetent) to be playing professional hockey.
He absolutely deserved what he got. You feth around, you get your ass kicked, its really quite simple. I would have done, and have done (in other sports), exactly the same thing.
If this type of behavior is going to stop, the NHL needs to decide that it wants the officials to police players rather than allowing the players to police each other.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/17 02:10:14
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/04/17 02:58:37
Subject: Re:'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
Crosby is simply trying to stoke a fire up his team's collective arses because they're all playing like morons... I think his poking the glove away was a really dumb & childish thing to do, but considering all the crap that's been flying at him since he first entered the league, it's no surprise he's growing a huge chip on his shoulder and finally acting out.
I've been forced to quit playing because of taking too many concussions, (I've suffered 8 in total), all from cheap blindside/hits from behind. I don't blame Crosby for getting outright p ed-off because the refs aren't doing their jobs at all... You take enough crap, it's only human nature to want to hurt the thugs right back!
It's simply sad that he's the guy having to try and be something he's not! Though it was fun to see him and Giroux wrestle about as niether guy was going to really throw any real punches - just a good dust-up between each team's top players!
2012/04/17 23:18:00
Subject: 'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
generalgrog wrote:I just watched the highlights from game 3 Pens-Flyers. I thought Schenns hit was fine, it was that crosscheck to the adams apple that was out of line from Adams.
The Schenn hit was dirty as feth, he either aimed high deliberately or he's too stupid (read: physically incompetent) to be playing professional hockey.
He absolutely deserved what he got. You feth around, you get your ass kicked, its really quite simple. I would have done, and have done (in other sports), exactly the same thing.
If this type of behavior is going to stop, the NHL needs to decide that it wants the officials to police players rather than allowing the players to police each other.
What?
listen to Barry Melrose (I think?)..who actually knows something about hockey.
GG
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/17 23:19:33
2012/04/18 02:10:46
Subject: 'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
generalgrog wrote:I just watched the highlights from game 3 Pens-Flyers. I thought Schenns hit was fine, it was that crosscheck to the adams apple that was out of line from Adams.
The Schenn hit was dirty as feth, he either aimed high deliberately or he's too stupid (read: physically incompetent) to be playing professional hockey.
He absolutely deserved what he got. You feth around, you get your ass kicked, its really quite simple. I would have done, and have done (in other sports), exactly the same thing.
If this type of behavior is going to stop, the NHL needs to decide that it wants the officials to police players rather than allowing the players to police each other.
What?
listen to Barry Melrose (I think?)..who actually knows something about hockey.
GG
Yep, Schenn's hit was so legal and clean... I mean, he only;
a) charges two thirds the width of the ice (so, you could call him for 'charging')
b) leaps off the ice into his target (also known as a minor penalty for 'bording')
c) targets the opposing player at the shoulders or above (so, a 'high hit' and deserving of a roughing minor)
Ashem only steped up and defended his team mate like any good enforcer would do.
If I ever saw a play like this in a game I was officiating, (and yes, I am a certified OWHA on-ice official), I'd have tossed both players - Schenn a major + game for obviously showing no respect towards his opponent and making a very dangerous hit, Ashem a major + game for cross-checking & intent to injure in retaliation.
If you honestly think Schenn's hit was a 'clean hockey hit', then you need to re-learn a few rules my friend... (or else step up and take a few similar hits and see for yourself just how 'clean' getting decked like that supossedly is!)
The best way to clear this kind of crap up is to simply get rid of the NHL's moronic instigator rule because all it does is protect the goons. Let the players police themselves more like they did in the late 80's/early to mid 90's and you won't have stupid plays like this cropping up in every damn game!
2012/04/18 02:23:52
Subject: 'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
generalgrog wrote:
listen to Barry Melrose (I think?)..who actually knows something about hockey.
Shockingly, I know a thing or two about hockey myself, not on a professional level, but I've been watching it since I was born. Most American kids watched football with their dad's, I watched hockey with mine. I even played for a few years (I was awful, can't skate worth a damn).
The hit was charging, plain and simple, he traveled a sufficient distance for him to leave his feet on impact, and its arguable that he aimed at his head. You could even make the case that his target was defenseless due to his position inside the other Flyer.
Asham's hit was illegal, but so was Schenn's, and he absolutely deserved what he got.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Experiment 626 wrote:
The best way to clear this kind of crap up is to simply get rid of the NHL's moronic instigator rule because all it does is protect the goons.
It is notable that back in the day, before the instigator rule, the goons of the league were actually decent players too.
That being said, I don't think the instigator rule is a huge issue, I think the NHL just needs to decide, really decide, how it feels about violence in the sport.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/18 02:25:34
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/04/18 02:29:07
Subject: Re:'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
OK so I'm not a hockey expert obviously, but I didn't see schen leave his skates until his teammate tripped him and he didn't hit high, he hit at shoulder level. The commentator said it was a clean hit and the NHL is not calling it a dirty hit.
Shrugs...
GG
2012/04/18 02:34:34
Subject: 'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2012/04/18 04:16:52
Subject: 'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
I've only had a chance to watch a couple of games so far due to time, space, and work. I have to say playoffs are about 1000 times better than the regular season...especially the craptastic 'push' some teams put together. <cough> Calgary <cough>
I am curious to see the shake up in Vancouver after they get swept. They do have a great team (they did win the Gary Bettman Trophy), but even if Schneider gets a win for them in the first series, I can't see the team being left intact. As for the Pens, I think they're unlucky they got Philly in the first round. I don't care who wins that series, but it makes me want to see a Flames/Oilers, Loafs/Sens series again for that intensity.
Did anyone else like the music the organist played while Hossa was on the ice spitting up teeth? The linesman was standing right there for the hit and play went on for awhile. Someone won't be officiating in Chicago anytime soon.
2012/04/18 11:43:35
Subject: 'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
Khornholio wrote:Someone won't be officiating in Chicago anytime soon.
Or ever again.
That degree of incompetence is beneath contempt.
The problem is, a Linesman has very little actual power on the ice. Not sure if the NHL makes it worse, but under the CHA guidlines, the Linesman technically can't even blow the play dead in this instance - the injured player's team must gain possession & control of the puck and the Referee blow the play dead, OR the ref has to see it and blow the play dead immediately if they feel the injured player is in need of immediate medical attention.
A linesman who sees an infraction during a play, can at the next stoppage of play, go to the referee and report what they saw. (ie: the infraction commited, player's number, etc...) The referee at that point, may assess a penalty to the guilty player.
Like I said though, that's how Hockey Canada plays it, and sadly, linesmen very rarely follow-up this aspect of their job.
Torres at least has been suspended twice this season and fined once, plus the suspension he got last year in the play-offs! He's a repeat offender, and a known predatory type of player, so hopefully Shanny is allowed by his handlers to really throw the book at this dumb .
If you look, Hossa's eyes are pretty much closed as he's being wheeled off the ice, pretty clear indication he's well & truely concussed! I hope he can recover from his injury in a timely manner, and that he won't suffer long-term symptoms as other players have.
2012/04/18 13:42:38
Subject: Re:'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
On the Schenn hit... If you watch the hit Schenn delivers, his momentum is broken by the other Flyer before he contacts the Pens player. Schenn was also given a Charging minor on that play.
Asham was dealt the Major not just for the throat check, but also for the punch to the back of Schenn's head. and now a 4 game suspension.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/18 13:43:57
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
helgrenze wrote:On the Schenn hit... If you watch the hit Schenn delivers, his momentum is broken by the other Flyer before he contacts the Pens player.
No it wasn't, his principle point of contact was the Pitt guy's upper chest. He never makes any significant contact with his teammate, and left his feet.
If you want to make that claim, then anyone else should be able to make the claim that Asham's stick only rode up to the Adam's apple, and wasn't aimed at it, so it was just a garden variety cross-check.
Experiment 626 wrote:
Like I said though, that's how Hockey Canada plays it, and sadly, linesmen very rarely follow-up this aspect of their job.
In the NHL they're required to report major, or misconduct, penalties at the whistle. And, seeing as the linesman in question visibly flinched at the hit...
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/04/18 15:53:09
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/04/18 17:26:41
Subject: 'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
Raffi Torres needs to be suspended for at least 10 games.
They suspended Shaw for 3 games for his incidental hit on Smith.
Smith will play Tuesday night in Game 3 and had he been injured, Shaw would have sat the rest of this series.
Earlier in the month NHL disciplinarian Brendan Shanahan had this to say about hits on goaltenders out of the crease: "Depending on the intent and depending on the situation, a player runs the risk of being suspended."
Shaw did not intend to hit Smith and still got suspended.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2012/04/18 17:54:31
Subject: Re:'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
As I've said above, the NHL needs to decide whether it wants a violent game, or a relatively passive one. This half-measure crap just gets people hurt and, honestly, screws the people calling the games.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/04/18 19:52:21
Subject: Re:'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
dogma wrote:As I've said above, the NHL needs to decide whether it wants a violent game, or a relatively passive one. This half-measure crap just gets people hurt and, honestly, screws the people calling the games.
Hockey, like (Am.) football, is an inherently violent sport. Collisions will happen. Given the physics involved, they would be impossible to prevent. However, certain types of impacts can be regulated, and for the most part, they are. Does this stop the players from doing things "in the heat of the moment" that are inherently dangerous and damaging? No.
The reason? You cannot regulate emotion.
This becomes a bigger issue during the playoffs. As each play means more, emotion runs higher. Want to regulat that? Adopt the College football BCS system.
Which sucks.
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
Khornholio wrote:^^ True. But will Vancouver burn tonight?
I doubt it - it's only the quarterfinals.
Both times they burned a small part of the city, it was after losing the cup itself.
I suspect if/when they lose tonight most Vancouver fans will first cry into their beer, then bemoan how awful the team played, then decide it was all the league's fault becuase both Sedin's were/are currently injured due to very questionable hits!
Why, give them another or two of this, and they'll start to sound like Toronto fans!
2012/04/19 00:41:23
Subject: Re:'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
Ugly night in Philly.... for the Flyers. 10-3 Pens early in the 3rd.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/19 02:03:13
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
helgrenze wrote:Ugly night in Philly.... for the Flyers. 10-3 Pens early in the 3rd.
Philly goaltending was pathetic. I have seen pee wee goalies move faster in the crease...
I saw the stick hold by cooke, but what did he do to get a 10 min. game misconduct other then get punched and cross checked multiple times?
The refs weren't taking any chances. Cooke had helped ignight the situation by holding the stick, he then threw a punch during the dust-up.
Quickest thing for any intelligent ref to do is to simply assess off-setting penalties to each involved player. No team gains an advantage, the clowns can sit it out and cool off.
Had the series not already escalated so completely out of control, I doubt any of the four players involved would have been given misconducts. But, considering the powderkeg that's always close to exploding in this series, better safe than sorry!
It'll be interesting to see if the Flyers player who'd been ejected eariler in the game will face any additional discipline. Pretty stupid what he did, and the Flyers have started alot of BS going on anyways. The Pens have simply been the dumber team by continuousally retaliating through the first three games.
2012/04/19 03:58:34
Subject: 'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
helgrenze wrote:
The reason? You cannot regulate emotion.
No, but you can regulate the behaviors that follow from it. The problem is that NHL has been wildly inconsistent in how it approaches this regulation.
Say what you will about the NFL regarding protection of the quarterback, and really even receivers and running backs, but they decided they would rather err on the side of caution and have consistently come down hard on players both on and off the field who go against that sentiment. Is it always necessarily good, or correct? No, but it is consistent, and that's the sort of punishment that actually leads to prevention.
As a secondary point, I would argue that teams should be punished for the behavior of their players as well, thereby removing the incentive to have guys like Torres on the ice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Quickest thing for any intelligent ref to do is to simply assess off-setting penalties to each involved player. No team gains an advantage, the clowns can sit it out and cool off.
Basically.
I think you'll see more of this after the Torres and Asham hits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/19 03:59:47
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/04/19 04:21:29
Subject: 'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
There will always be a place for the Dave Schultz's, if it's only for the intimidation factor.
But if every team has an enforcer type player then you run the risk of heavy hits and fights. Add in high emotion and frustration, plus the speed of the game and basic physics......
I think the NHL is doing all it can to control things.
Slowing the game down won't help either.... girls field hockey has roughly the same injury rate.
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
People talk about "the old days" in both football and hockey.(I've been watching the flyers since the mid 80's) But they don't realize that in the old days they didn't know about the negative long term impact concussions had on players. Hard hits are ok, but not to the head.
GG
2012/04/19 13:07:28
Subject: 'There's Always Next Year!' And the NHL Play-offs for the rest of us!
helgrenze wrote:There will always be a place for the Dave Schultz's, if it's only for the intimidation factor.
But if every team has an enforcer type player then you run the risk of heavy hits and fights. Add in high emotion and frustration, plus the speed of the game and basic physics......
I think the NHL is doing all it can to control things.
Slowing the game down won't help either.... girls field hockey has roughly the same injury rate.
The NHL is currently a running a joke in how it applies 'discipline' to its players & teams.
For example, every single organisation EXCEPT the NHL have added in the 'checking to the head rule' at least 4-5 years ago! Not to mention they actively punish it too... Here in Canada, doesn't matter if you're playing organise girls hockey, boys house league or junior AAA - a check to the head is at a minium a 2min minor penalty + 10min misconduct. Any kind of decent force, automatic 5min major + game ejection.
The NHL has only just this year brought in a bastardised version of the rule, and they find excuses not to apply it! (especially the officials on the ice)
And to finish it off, organisations like Hockey Canada & Hockey USA have clearly defined rules regarding minimum suspensions for various infractions. (ie: a match penalty in Canadian minor hockey will net you a minimum 4 game suspension + a formal hearing!) The NHL seemingly has no such system so it leads to very inconsistant justice with teams up in arms over the outcome of suspensions, the fans scratching their heads in confusion, and every other governing body like the NFL pointing and laughing!
There's no real punishment overall for running an opposing player and hurting them. Look at the Rangers/Sens series! Alfie is still out, and likely could miss the rest of the series due to a concussion. (I know Ottawa is really pushing to get him back, but my gut feeling tells me he won't be back before game 6 if at all) The guy who hit him? 3 game suspension so he's 100% assured of getting back into the series.
So really, when you're into such a complete 'win at all costs' mentality like pro sports, why not go out and just hurt the other team's star player/s? All you'll get in the end is a pointless fine and maybe upto 5 or 6 games off, while the star player might not be back for months!
NHL 'discipline' is clearly a case of the inmates running the asylum and has been for years. (imho it really began to show after the Moore/Nassland hit which led to Bertuzzi doing what he did, as Crawford had simply incited his team to 'go get him back' due to a complete lack of any responsible action by the NHL)
ed-off because the refs aren't doing their jobs at all... You take enough crap, it's only human nature to want to hurt the thugs right back!
