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Go start another thread about that lol, you'll get better reception there.

For the record, I'm writing for the BL and I hope to add a chapter to the tear soaked SoB chronicle that is slightly more in their favor than it has been in the past. That's if I get published of course.

P.S. Let us not forget how instrumental the SoB were in repairing the damage of the Age of Apostasy during the Plague of Unbelief. Even if the predominant modern lore is against them, it is undeniable that the SoB have both golden hearts, and iron hands which they use with the Emperor's grace to cut the cancers away from the rotting Imperium. They are unsung and often unwanted hero's, but without them there would be no faith, no culture of the Imperium, and therefore no Imperium to defend in the Emperor's name.

7 Edit's.. just to be sure.

Well, might as well start organizing the pile.



Sons of Malice
Source: Index Astartes and Codex: Eye of Terror

Incident: The Sons of Malice are a renegade chapter whose current status is tied to an incident involving the Inquisition and the SoB.

An Inquisitor objected to the SoM's specific chapter rituals which involved flesh-eating/quasi-cannibalism. The Inquisitor seeks to rectify the situation by moblizing a strike force of Celestians, the most skilled fighters in the SoB.

Result: the Celestians are wiped out and the Inquisitor is sacrificed by the SoM.


The Sanctuary 101 Incident
Source: Necron Codex 3rd edition, Codex Witch Hunters 3rd edition:

Incident: Prior to Cron 5th RetCon (although this may have been maintained), Sanctuary 101 was the starting point of the narrative between the Imperium and the Necrons.

The Fortress-Convent was located in Ultima Segmentum (planet unrecorded)

Result: The Convent was wiped out by Necrons - circumstances point to at the very least the presence of Flayed Ones.



More to come..

DemetriDominov wrote:For the record, I'm writing for the BL and I hope to add a chapter to the tear soaked SoB chronicle that is slightly more in their favor than it has been in the past. That's if I get published of course.

P.S. Let us not forget how instrumental the SoB were in repairing the damage of the Age of Apostasy during the Plague of Unbelief. Even if the predominant modern lore is against them, it is undeniable that the SoB have both golden hearts, and iron hands which they use with the Emperor's grace to cut the cancers away from the rotting Imperium. They are unsung and often unwanted hero's, but without them there would be no faith, no culture of the Imperium, and therefore no Imperium to defend in the Emperor's name.

7 Edit's.. just to be sure.

Actually, given the FFG material, the Imperial populace quite loves the Adepta Sororitas. The nobles absolutely adore the Sisters Famulous, and having one run their house is considered a mark of honor and respect. The common folk and especially the Guard view the Hospitaller as saints of mercy, because there's no better doctors and surgeons in the galaxy and they're dedicated to the extreme. And the Sisters of Battle themselves are beloved for protecting the faithful.

Sure the FFG material has its flaws (describing their power armor as light power armor for example, directly contradicting C:WH), but it has plenty of good parts too.

Wait.. why are we reinventing the wheel?


This whole argument has been argued before on DakkaDakka!

-----> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/377243.page

And plenty of times before that. It's a recurring theme in Sisters lore.

The kindest way to describe Games Workshop's handling of the Adepta Sororitas is incompetent, and one can get meaner from there.

SoB are undoubtedly my favorite faction. Like other "normal" humans, they are often presented as physically frail compared to SM. I don't mind that. What really gets under my skin is when they are portrayed as weak willed or corruptible.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Well, might as well start organizing the pile.



Sons of Malice
Source: Index Astartes and Codex: Eye of Terror

Incident: The Sons of Malice are a renegade chapter whose current status is tied to an incident involving the Inquisition and the SoB.

An Inquisitor objected to the SoM's specific chapter rituals which involved flesh-eating/quasi-cannibalism. The Inquisitor seeks to rectify the situation by moblizing a strike force of Celestians, the most skilled fighters in the SoB.

Result: the Celestians are wiped out and the Inquisitor is sacrificed by the SoM.


The Sanctuary 101 Incident
Source: Necron Codex 3rd edition, Codex Witch Hunters 3rd edition:

Incident: Prior to Cron 5th RetCon (although this may have been maintained), Sanctuary 101 was the starting point of the narrative between the Imperium and the Necrons.

The Fortress-Convent was located in Ultima Segmentum (planet unrecorded)

Result: The Convent was wiped out by Necrons - circumstances point to at the very least the presence of Flayed Ones.



More to come..

Dannyevilguy wrote:

Spoiler:

The Sanctuary 101 incident is resolved in the book Hammer and Anvil by James Swallow. A SoB force is sent back to the planet and they destroy the necron moon base, resulting in the necron ground forces phasing out before they are able to wipe out the sisters. Many sisters died, but they overcame beyond rediculous odds and managed to sneak in a victory. This book also went out of its way to include all the new necron types from the latest codex to include a Mindshackle scarab on a survivor for the first Santuary 101 SoB. She went crazy, but managed to fight their control and escape the necron Cryptek who experimented on her.

Now that i should pass off to my friends who play Necrons.

Indeed, it's an example of why Sisters need more books from THEIR point of view.


So do the xenos races TBH. Everyone needs a chance in the limelight, not just marines.

Melissia wrote:And plenty of times before that. It's a recurring theme in Sisters lore.

The kindest way to describe Games Workshop's handling of the Adepta Sororitas is incompetent, and one can get meaner from there.

Actually jumped on Librarium and Warseer - you weren't kidding when you said "recurrent theme."

Same with the "Where do Miracles come from?" arguments.

As has been mentioned before, the Adepta Sororitas have always been somewhat of GW's stepchild. In part, one might argue this is due to an oversaturation of Imperial forces, which results in the majority of TT gamers interested in this faction picking either the Space Marines or the Imperial Guard rather than the "in-between" in form of the Sisterhood, regardless of their unique background and potential. Another part is the studio itself, seemingly lacking in employees who feel enthusiastic about the SoB rather than having to be "forced" to write about them (I recall rumours about Andy Hoare having been the only one in the studio who ever championed them). To add insult to injury, the Space Marines would then absorb various traits traditionally associated with the Sisters - including pseudo-religious appearances or even wargear options. All of this manifested itself in a vicious cycle where GW would never hype this army as much as others, so players never generated as much interest, so GW would never hype them, and so on. A few gems can be found throughout various issues of White Dwarf or minor TT supplement books, but other than that, the three Codices released so far contain about 3/4 of all available Sororitas fluff.

Naturally, this lack of presence carried on into Black Library, although James Swallow's series about Sister Miriya ("Faith and Fire", "Hammer and Anvil", "Red and Black") and one-offs like Kev Walker's graphic novel ("Daemonifuge") or a few short stories ("Daemonblood", "The Invitation") published in various anthologies are notable exceptions to the general rule. The general rule of course being a total absence at best, or a depiction either as incompetent cannonfodder or as something completely out of line with the most basic descriptions in studio material at worst. As previously mentioned by another dakkanaut, various authors seem to think they make good foes, which in itself is a reasonable conclusion, considering their training and equipment. The end result, as we know, has been that they've become the whipping girls of the franchise, seemingly taking the "martyr" theme a little too close to heart and raising understandable if misplaced concerns regarding their actual usefulness. In short, the issue only gets worse.

The aforementioned exceptions as well as the Sisters' venture in the video game ("Soulstorm") or pen&paper rpg ("Dark Heresy") market can be very much seen as a light at the end of the tunnel, however, if one were to seek an optimistic perception. In spite of their poor handling in the TT, their presence in other media and as such their recognition value has increased, which might just be enough to help them get off the ground again, provided this sudden burst of activity (compared to previous years) doesn't just die down again. I'd probably not make any bets either way.

Kettu wrote:Both these books are considered canon by GW [...]

To be fair, there is no canon in GW - it's an urban myth that keeps getting passed from mouth to mouth (or rather hand to hand) in spite of comments made by actual GW people as well as freelancers working with their licenses - coincidentally including Andy Hoare, since you referenced him. This is what he actually thinks about the issue of canonicity:
"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

And in contrast to my convictions during my first years as a fan of this franchise, I've come to appreciate this stance. Personally, I can do without a "canon" that includes such silliness like friendly SoB-vets who drink and play cards for fun, "civilian" plasma guns or backflipping Terminators as they occasionally get thrown around in various novels or RPG books. Instead, GW seems to intend to let the individual player see and interpret the world in the way he or she likes it - "making the setting their own", so to say. Consequently, the ensueing chaos amongst licensed works where you have one author simply not caring about what another wrote or even what it says in a studio book (see Aaron Dembski-Bowden's article above) creates a lot of inconsistencies between the fans, which is why there are so many fierce discussions about the background on this forum too ... when in fact "none of these interpretations is wrong", as Gav Thorpe commented on his blog.

In a way, this does mean that one could "freeze-frame a version of 40k", as the Contemplative Sphinx put it. Not that - to get back to the actual topic at hand - this would mean a lot to the Sisters of Battle. When limiting one's view solely to the actual studio material, few things have changed since their very first inception in the old 1st edition Rogue Trader. In fact, the designer's notes for the 3E Witch Hunter Codex, the last proper book the Sisters have received, even stated that the authors exercised great care so that nothing ever written on the Sororitas would be contradicted. One of the very few cases throughout the entire 40k franchise where you have a faction remain entirely consistent over so many years. Not that the available material wouldn't still leave a lot open to interpretation, mind you. Working as intended, one might say.

Lynata wrote:

Kettu wrote:Both these books are considered canon by GW [...]

To be fair, there is no canon in GW - it's an urban myth that keeps getting passed from mouth to mouth (or rather hand to hand) in spite of comments made by actual GW people as well as freelancers working with their licenses - coincidentally including Andy Hoare, since you referenced him. This is what he actually thinks about the issue of canonicity:
"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

And in contrast to my convictions during my first years as a fan of this franchise, I've come to appreciate this stance. Personally, I can do without a "canon" that includes such silliness like friendly SoB-vets who drink and play cards for fun, "civilian" plasma guns or backflipping Terminators as they occasionally get thrown around in various novels or RPG books. Instead, GW seems to intend to let the individual player see and interpret the world in the way he or she likes it - "making the setting their own", so to say. Consequently, the ensueing chaos amongst licensed works where you have one author simply not caring about what another wrote or even what it says in a studio book (see Aaron Dembski-Bowden's article above) creates a lot of inconsistencies between the fans, which is why there are so many fierce discussions about the background on this forum too ... when in fact "none of these interpretations is wrong", as Gav Thorpe commented on his blog.

Thank you Lynata, that was indeed most enlightening.

Probably one of the most helpful comments on this thread to date.

A small aside regarding canonicity: How does one pair up the above statements against BL's "Heretic Tome" policy? The version of WH40K represented in those works are targeted for exclusion and given the "Heretic" label because of it.

Melissia wrote:An equal number of Black Library books (the Cain books), Sisters are shown to be idiotic losers who get slaughtered to a woman.

You are aware that in Ciaphas Cain books, everyone including Cain is characterized as idiotic losers, right?
And that dogmatic people are the prime target of Cain's contempt lies also in the character.

And again the Grey Knight novel is missing in your listing, where Sororitas are presented respectfully and win in the end.

Kroothawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:An equal number of Black Library books (the Cain books), Sisters are shown to be idiotic losers who get slaughtered to a woman.

You are aware that in Ciaphas Cain books, everyone including Cain is characterized as idiotic losers, right?

I would if it was true, but it's not.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
A small aside regarding canonicity: How does one pair up the above statements against BL's "Heretic Tome" policy? The version of WH40K represented in those works are targeted for exclusion and given the "Heretic" label because of it.

A good question - if I were to guess this development came to be because the contents of these "Heretic Tomes" are even further from the studio standards than in the average licensed product. As Gav Thorpe wrote in the linked blog, "there certainly are established facts", and companies such as BL, FW or FFG do have editors who would refuse or change drafts deviating too much from the current studio vision, even with the considerable artistic license that authors obviously enjoy. Yet, as this vision has changed over the years, some books may now appear way more out of line than others.

Perhaps this is an attempt of Black Library to "save face" and set their normal products apart from books where everyone knows they "don't work" in relation to the current 40k 'verse - I imagine the various companies being well aware that these writings are valued not only for telling a story but also because fans wish to see them as "enriching" the setting with new information, as we can see in all those threads where someone points them out as a source (and I've done the same back then). In this, it is noteworthy that the companies themselves flat-out refuse to officially comment on the issue of canonicity (I believe the only time this happened was an article from BL in the White Dwarf where they gave a rather deflective "everything and nothing is true") ... currently, it is only the individual authors and designers behind the products who will tell you on their blogs or in an interview.
After all, publicly declaring everything "non-canon" could be argued as lowering the value of these products, and as such profits made by their sales.

Just a theory, of course - but it would add up.

On a sidenote, there are actually a lot of GW writings where the Battle Sisters come off as a capable force - they're just very scattered and hard to find, which is why a whole lot of people, including ardent Sisters fans, don't know about them. An example would be the old official website of GW's Armageddon campaign, which can still be accessed via the wayback machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20070202084051/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/shroud.html & http://web.archive.org/web/20061012034227/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Fire_Wastes/firewastes.html

Lynata wrote:http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

Sometimes I really wonder why Aaron is such a fan-darling. I've noticed a trend of being disingenuous and disparaging with regard to his readers. For example:

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:I don’t sit at my desk, rubbing my hands together, delighting in the fact that I might’ve annoyed Fan #3,974,910 because I said Commander Dude Guyman zigs instead of zags. I sympathise with that irritation.

So Fan #3,974,910 (nice way to dehumanize and trivialize the folks who make your lifestyle possible, bub) is all lathered up about something that doesn't even matter. But don't worry -- the author who talks about you as a faceless jerk boiling over about nothing apparently also has sympathy for you.

Heh, in fairness, he does have a point regarding the level of detail such debates often concern themselves with - certainly I've been engaged in some very petty arguments myself, and ADB directly addresses this passionate behaviour in his blog. It's not the fans' fault, given that the companies are probably quite happy with the level of interest surrounding their products as sources of a non-existing canon and see no need to dispell this notion, but it ends up making the authors look bad if their works end up conflicting with what somebody else wrote - even when everyone involved in actually making the product knows it shouldn't matter. In turn, many fans lash out against the authors for "violating" some detail regarded as sacrosanct, and the authors feel as if they are treated unfairly. Needless to say, this does create a certain gap.

I think ADB is still regarded with an above-average level of respect due to him originating from the very group of fans and forumites he is now writing for, and for occasionally commenting or explaining stuff on a forum or his blog - as he did with his article about the issue of canonicity. This closeness is valued by the fans, even moreso as it stands in an ever-growing contrast to GW, who seem to grow apart more and more from their customers the bigger they get.

How much anyone likes him probably depends on how much emphasis you'd place on his books "conforming" to your own interpretation of the setting (as formed from anything you've read so far) - and if you're part of the lucky ones whose ideas are in line with his.

It's kind of a lie, though, isn't it, that this guy was playing 40k and then just started writing BL novels? He was writing for White Wolf before and I think also Mongoose. I've never seen him post a battle report or a painting blog or even start a discussion thread about the fluff. (TBF, haven't gone looking, either.) I have, by contrast, seen him swoop into discussions to defend against criticism of his work. Which is basically what he's doing in this article, sans swoop. I guess when people come to your soapbox, swooping is a bit like stooping. Anyway, all that playing and painting and ... er .. fandom is really for people who like trivial, irritating things like poor Fan #3,974,910.

Good thing Fan #3,974,910 has Aaron's sympathy.

In any case, I do enjoy his books. And not because the difference between 4 1/2 stars and 5 is whether all the serials match on the parts making up the lasguns his characters use. I like his work because it's full of interesting ideas and images as well as effective narrative techniques. Canon in and of itself is not a matter of how many targeting reticules flit around on the lenses of a Mark IV helmet. Canon is about coherence across a franchise. If how many targeting reticules appear is a big feature of your story, then it better damn well be consistent between authors. If it isn't, then we have an example of what Aaron says he would never defend:

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:Having loose canon is no excuse for crappy research or poor writing, and I would never suggest otherwise.

I'll give it to you, Lynata, regarding the point about Aaron at least talking to the fans. My problem is that any talk is not good talk. Trivializing your fandom is stupid and mean. "It's all real and none of it's real" is not some spiritual insight or an invitation to creativity. It's a marketing strategy. Fluff discussions are how fans transform the bitter experience of being (ineffectually) marketed to into the meaningful experience of exploration and enjoyment.

Manchu wrote:

Lynata wrote:http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

Sometimes I really wonder why Aaron is such a fan-darling. I've noticed a trend of being disingenuous and disparaging with regard to his readers. For example:

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:I don’t sit at my desk, rubbing my hands together, delighting in the fact that I might’ve annoyed Fan #3,974,910 because I said Commander Dude Guyman zigs instead of zags. I sympathise with that irritation.

So Fan #3,974,910 (nice way to dehumanize and trivialize the folks who make your lifestyle possible, bub) is all lathered up about something that doesn't even matter. But don't worry -- the author who talks about you as a faceless jerk boiling over about nothing apparently also has sympathy for you.

Really?
You think that's "dehumanizing and trivializing the folks who make his lifestyle possible"?

There's a measure of rage that goes against authors for doing things that people don't like. We saw that ourselves here on Dakka when Pyriel got into a shouting match with ADB over ADB's "fanboyism" of the Night Lords "destroying half the Blood Angels Chapter!", and we still are seeing it about freakin' Mat Ward and the Grey Knights Codex.

People take things out of context or from word of mouth/the Internet and blow them up into some kind of personal affront.

Hell, I'm guilty of it with C.S. Goto. But really, I think most of us are...

@Manchu:

You seem to know a lot more about him than I do! Coincidentally, I didn't even read any of his books (as he like most BL authors doesn't write anything concerning my immediate interests; I'm long done with Marines). I just thought his opinion, like Gav's or Andy's, was very insightful in what goes on in the heads of the people writing the stuff we're talking about. Especially given the prevalence of the "canon myth".

But yeah, I do agree about the points you raised about it being a market strategy, and that some more consistence would have been nice. The latter is unfortunately not something "we" got, and by now it'd take Leelandian efforts to bring everything in line now. Which, as I mentioned before, likely isn't even what the Powers That Be actually want. If you've been reading GW books of different editions, you'll notice how over the years things have become more and more vague, leaving more and more room for personal interpretation. The last "hard" numbers we got for how big the SoB are, for example, are from 2nd Edition. Same about the actual protective value of Space Marine armour, or how many Storm Troopers there are in the Imperial Guard. The absence of such information in recent editions increases the room to maneuver for both fans and authors, allowing them to come up with numbers they think are "right" without contradicting contemporary studio fluff.

And it works just fine, until somebody happens to pick up two books whose authors are stating opposite things. Or until you go on an internet forum where people who have read something else have formed an incompatible interpretation of the 'verse, at which point they begin verbally slapping each other with their favorite sources.

I have to say that ADB at least displays a willingness to read up on things before writing about them. I'm not too sure how true this is, but I've certainly gotten the impression that there are a number of authors who don't even care to do that. In some cases this may be due to the information being hard to find (see my earlier posts), but in others it's just plain lazyness ... or the author being convinced that his own idea is superior to whatever the original creatores came up with, aka arrogance.

Which reminds me of a comment Stardock CEO Brad Wardell made regarding the debacle that was Master of Orion III:
"Don't go off and say, 'I have my own artistic vision. Okay, good--so call it something else. Don't ride the coattails of the people who came before you to launch your own artistic vision."

Kanluwen wrote:Hell, I'm guilty of it with C.S. Goto. But really, I think most of us are...

Is it even the same case with C.S. Goto?

Melissia wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:An equal number of Black Library books (the Cain books), Sisters are shown to be idiotic losers who get slaughtered to a woman.

You are aware that in Ciaphas Cain books, everyone including Cain is characterized as idiotic losers, right?

I would if it was true, but it's not.

Agreed - Cain gets irritated by the Sisters often gung ho attitdue to battle but he is impressed by theri actual abilities and is always careful to keep his views to hisself as everyone else in the Cain novels is deeply respectful of them - including many fo the more battleharded veterans he hangs about with - I mean is Commissar to.

The Cain novels portray the majority of the participants as human, often flawed but usually good at what they do - occassionally you do have fools but thats a plot point.

The Sisters in one Cain novel are killed - but thats at the hands of a Tryanid swarm and they very effective until overwhelmed
Other sisters ecnountered are formdiable warriors who do just fine.

The Sisters in the recent Legion of the Damned again are effective and steadfast warriors fighting with the Astartes to defend their world against the hordes of Khorne.

Kanluwen wrote:Really? You think that's "dehumanizing and trivializing the folks who make his lifestyle possible"?

Yes. That's why I posted it.

Kanluwen wrote:Hell, I'm guilty of it with C.S. Goto. But really, I think most of us are...

I can't speak for you but I don't think the problem with C. S. Goto is that I misunderstood and have blown out of proportion some small fault on his part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:Or until you go on an internet forum where people who have read something else have formed an incompatible interpretation of the 'verse, at which point they begin verbally slapping each other with their favorite sources.

Whether or not you or I might enjoy this prospect, it's part of the fandom. It's disingenuous to call yourself a fanboy when you're actually an employee churning out product. Calling yourself a fanboy is something of a marketing strategy itself, especially in the context of an apology for your employer, and it becomes an intolerable bit of self-delusion when you juxtapose against it against trivializing your fans and their experience of the franchise.

Manchu wrote:Whether or not you or I might enjoy this prospect, it's part of the fandom. It's disingenuous to call yourself a fanboy when you're actually an employee churning out product. Calling yourself a fanboy is something of a marketing strategy itself, especially in the context of an apology for your employer, and it becomes an intolerable bit of self-delusion when you juxtapose against it against trivializing your fans and their experience of the franchise.

Definitively. Don't get me wrong - I did not intend to defend his choice of words, merely pointing out that I understand why he feels that way. I'm certainly guilty of the behaviour he is criticizing myself. For example when I'm reminding people that the Veteran Superior in the Cain novels is pretty much the antithesis to how they are described in GW sources, or when I'm nagging about certain choices made by FFG again.

All of that stuff is good, healthy fandom.

This is in distinction, of course, to what Kanluwen mentioned about how people willfully misinterpret Mat Ward.

Eh, there's a point when fandom results in you being TFG on an internet forum somewhere, literally working yourself into an apoplectic lather because someone got the color of a button on a pauldron of a Space Marine Chapter "wrong".

That person is Fan #3,974,910, and is richly deserving of mockery.

You argument is a tautology: TFG is TFG.

There's a point where fandom becomes something... different. And when you become TFG, then your fandom has exceeded the bounds of a healthy hobby and become... something else entirely, whether that's a religion, a clique, a fixation, a... well, I don't know what, but something that obviously isn't healthy, either physically or socially.

If the fact that someone has a different opinion from yours (nonspecific) in a game involving little plastic soldiers fighting little plastic elves drives you into fits of rage and fist-smashing keyboards and angry internet rants about it... it's time to step back and re-think your choices in life.

Same tautology.