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Ailaros wrote:

General_Marshall wrote:They work most of the time, and people credit my generalship when they do

Then the people around you fail...

Not everyone is you, nor should be expected to live up to your standards

In addition, I don't think many would disagree with me when I say that there is an inherent psychological attack upon your opponent knowing that none of his units can escape from their bombardment.

I know the marine player I play against, (Bevan on these forums) dreads them firing each turn.
Another Ork player whom I regularly fight also dislikes them.

Whilst we are on it- mortars do fill one small niche, in that they can be pretty great vs lootaz, especially smaller units where its easy to force a morale check making them jump through two LD7 hoops

Ailaros wrote:

General_Marshall wrote:They work most of the time, and people credit my generalship when they do

Then the people around you fail to realise that 40k is a game of dice. The killing power of any given unit has absolutely nothing to do with one's generalship, it has everything to do with the odds that the statline of a weapon gives you, and what they results of the dice are.

If you're getting really lucky with your dice while using mortars, and are playing against dumb players who can't figure out how to spread out their units, then more power to you, but don't think it's your personal awesomeness that exudes from your very being that makes them so good for you.

Mortars are too weak to handle vehicles with any degree of certainty, and have too crappy of an AP to do much more than make loud noises at units with a decent armor save. Meanwhile, they have no way of compensating for displacement or cover, either (or both) of which your opponents can use to their advantage to seriously mitigate any casualties taken.

They're a niche weapon that only resembles good in a very narrow band of situations. Thinking highly of your abilities as a field commander doesn't change the inherent limitations to this weapon.

Also you are a bit out of line, you can win games with good tactics over dice rolls, and IG is one of the few armies this works on. Don't judge the people around me because I use tactics you don't understand, I'm just here to share ideas, not judge people and dismiss things without a second thought, this is the internet of course, so feel free to say what you wish, but you're acting somewhat immature by being so judgemental quickly. (Unless you are a Commissar of course)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marsden wrote:I have a squad of three mortars which I bring every game without a second thought. My tactic involves placing them behind my gunline and targeting various annoyances which are just beyond my 24" reach.

A couple of their greatest successes have been:

-knocking out 5 Orc Kannons in one game.
-causing enough wounds on marines that they eventually have to roll a 1 or 2 on their armour save. (They are surprisingly effective against MEQ's as they wound on 4's instead of 5's.)
-Wounding a couple of nurgle daemons camping on an objective which are completely out of line of line of sight.

In contrast, I have only ever pinned an opponent once. So they are limited in their effectiveness to that regard.
And I do admit, they are a hit and miss weapon. (Pun intended.) You either get a good game with them or you don't, simple as that really.

I won't be getting rid of mine anytime soon.

You are giving a perfect example of what I'm trying to prove.

Also you are a bit out of line, you can win games with good tactics over dice rolls, and IG is one of the few armies this works on. Don't judge the people around me because I use tactics you don't understand, I'm just here to share ideas, not judge people and dismiss things without a second thought, this is the internet of course, so feel free to say what you wish, but your acting somewhat immature by being so judgemental quickly. (Unless you are a Commissar of course)

I agree with you on this point.

We all have our personal preferences, quirks and unorthodox methods when we play 40k. That is what makes games so unique, brilliant and fresh each time. I would honestly be depressed if every single player decided to build their army around melta/plasma vets in chimeras with an army were every single point is geared to win.

Besides, all these "elite" playlists fall apart when someone does something unorthodox!

The last game I played, I decided to put my Primaris Psyker in a chimera. My opponent focused his fire upon my Leman Russ and was completely unaware that my Chimera would be pouring out an average of 10 S6 shots a turn! Haha!

Then again, my opponent got me back by choosing to field a squad of Kannons instead of the typical Ork battlewagon heavy support choice.

Half the fun is in the unexpected and narrative.

Marsden wrote:

Also you are a bit out of line, you can win games with good tactics over dice rolls, and IG is one of the few armies this works on. Don't judge the people around me because I use tactics you don't understand, I'm just here to share ideas, not judge people and dismiss things without a second thought, this is the internet of course, so feel free to say what you wish, but your acting somewhat immature by being so judgemental quickly. (Unless you are a Commissar of course)

I agree with you on this point.

We all have our personal preferences, quirks and unorthodox methods when we play 40k. That is what makes games so unique, brilliant and fresh each time. I would honestly be depressed if every single player decided to build their army around melta/plasma vets in chimeras with an army were every single point is geared to win.

Besides, all these "elite" playlists fall apart when someone does something unorthodox!

The last game I played, I decided to put my Primaris Psyker in a chimera. My opponent focused his fire upon my Leman Russ and was completely unaware that my Chimera would be pouring out an average of 10 S6 shots a turn! Haha!

Then again, my opponent got me back by choosing to field a squad of Kannons instead of the typical Ork battlewagon heavy support choice.

Half the fun is in the unexpected and narrative.

Wish more wargamers had that approch, if you don't play for fun, then why play at all? Or as said in the rule book, the objective is to win, the POINT is to have fun. I'm going to spend a far bit of money on this tournement I'm going into, but I'm not making a list thats no fun for me or my opponents just to win. I much prefer to lose a close, fun game, then win a game outright versus someone who was a poor sport through the match. The, of course there are the people who play with an amazing attitude even when losing a third of there armies in first turn. (I doubt I could EVER become amazing like that )

I have thought about mortars, but I found Autocannons and a MoO fill the niche I would use mortars for nicely.

Now, when discussing mortars, are we including the one in the HS slot?

I use a griffon in most of my lists and next week I´m going to a tournament with a Griffon + a Basi on one of my HS slots (wanted a Colossus but the conversion fell through).

And why I use them, as stated above the threat of plates flying around make my opponents to spread out that in our usual tables with the recomended terrain slows them allowing me one more time to shoot. Plus the Griffon reroll is always fun, I´ve popped more than one rhino full with assault marines far from my lines much to their annoyment.

Are they the best weapon? not really but then I don´t want to use vendettas to support my blobs, I feel artillery is more into my kind of game.

M.

Happygrunt wrote:I have thought about mortars, but I found Autocannons and a MoO fill the niche I would use mortars for nicely.

Now, when discussing mortars, are we including the one in the HS slot?

We can if you want.

I think the Griffon Heavy Mortar has something immensly appealing about it, but for the life of me I cannot understand why. Especially when you squadron two or more (and for 75 Points each its not a bad bargain) the damage output they can do is startlingly pleasing. Stregnth 6 Ordnance Barrage with re-rollable scatter seems really potent, especially if paired with a Colossus.

Agreeing that these mortars aren't the most reliable things, however, they do hit the itch.

General_Marshall wrote:Also you are a bit out of line, you can win games with good tactics over dice rolls, and IG is one of the few armies this works on. Don't judge the people around me because I use tactics you don't understand, I'm just here to share ideas, not judge people and dismiss things without a second thought, this is the internet of course, so feel free to say what you wish, but you're acting somewhat immature by being so judgemental quickly. (Unless you are a Commissar of course)

QFT. *Edit* 'Quoted for Truth'? That's what that means? I thought it meant 'Quite Frakkin' True'... *Edit*

i think people have hit the nail on the head with mortars as i see them is that they are great if you dont care they arnt that good and math hammer them out of any list. I use 12 of them with a 30man blob with ac and melta guns. Only been useing them a few months but i have had a lot of fun with them and stumped several oppanats by using them in odd ways. Haveing them camp behid the blob and use as a counter charge unit while no means what they are ment for has worked for me twice now.
I see people have spoken about how takeing them makes your oppanant play diffrent and that puts them on the back foot and allows you to play to your game plan.I find it a lot easyer to make my opanant move into my fire lanes when avoiding the mortars. I use most of my armour like pillar boxes but admit i am still a new player

Oh, one more thing:

Mortars can hold objectives when you are playing objective games.

If there is an objective in your back lines then you don't have to sacrifice a squad of your guardsmen's ability to move and shoot to hold that objective.

Marsden wrote:Oh, one more thing:

Mortars can hold objectives when you are playing objective games.

If there is an objective in your back lines then you don't have to sacrifice a squad of your guardsmen's ability to move and shoot to hold that objective.

And I have said before, its the only IG unit that can do so without sacrificing any fightly ablility.

Then the people around you fail to realise that 40k is a game of dice. The killing power of any given unit has absolutely nothing to do with one's generalship, it has everything to do with the odds that the statline of a weapon gives you, and what they results of the dice are.

40k is a game of movement. The game is won in the deployment phase and the following movement phases. The movement phase dictates, how and where the encounters happen, that include dice. So the better you move, the better your odds will be. It does not depend on weapons primarily. You have full control over your movement, but no control over your dice, you can only shift odds in your favour, but you cannot guarantee success.

The game has more factors than weapon strength and individual unit strength:

1. movement (plan your movement thoroughly for one turn and roughly for the whole game and interfere with the opponents probable movement)
2. firing discipline (set firing strategies that win you the game and supports 1. (i.e. stunlock or extreme target priority or selective preparing fire))
3. close combat judgement (know what probable outcome a possible assault will create and what worth it will have for your goal to win the game (i.e. tarpit, multi assault, focused assault, draw-away-assault)
4. time management (the game has 5-7 turns and the decisive ones are turn 5-7 so make sure you are where you want to be in this/those turn/s)

this is what wins you the game if you are not totally outmatched (i.e.: DE vs Nids/daemons). And it still allows you to play for a draw in bad matchups.

Then apart from that, there are units that perform exceptionally better in the hands of a good player and there are units that perform fairly the same not depending too much on the players generalship.
But that doesnt make them better in any form. The unit has to suit a certain task. And that task isnt only: killing, because killing can't be a task. A kill is one of many results of an executed task.

Played a small battle yesterday 500 pnt IG vs 500 pnt Tau.

Lets keep in mind that each heavy weapon has a specific purpose.

I wont get into too much detail but here are the general lists.

Tau
Shas'el or whatever
2x Fire Warrior Squads with 4 drones
1x Stealh squad

IG
CCS
PCS
2x Infantry Squads
1x HWS of mortars
1x Veteran Squad
Chimera

Long story short, I lost a PCS and about 5 guardsmen from each Infantry Squad and he lost everything. The mortars were able to apply 3-4 kills per volley and keep the FW's pinned. A FWS was always pinned and always taking losses. This is something AC's and Lascannons simply couldn't do. Heavy bolters require line of sight and have limited range. In this particular case I probably would have lost if I didn't bring them.

Had he used say Space Marines, I probably would have brought Autocannons.

The point of this post is simply to point out that each HWS has there advantages and disadvantages. Mortars are still very much viable if used correctly and used on the right targets.

Mortars and Bolters are for infantry
Autocannons are for heavy infantry and light vehicles
Lascannons are for Heavy infantry and Heavy Vehicles.

In a game of dice rolls the IG win by making people roll more dice.

As others have said before, mortars aren't awesome insta-killers, but not needing LOS to shoot = awesomesauce.

After all, what's more useful - a unit of mortars that probably won't kill much without a streak of good luck, but that can shoot EVERY TURN, or a unit of uber-zappy lascannons that can't see anything to shoot at and twiddle their thumbs for most of the game?

I use mortars, often, usually 3. I find them to be a pretty consistent unit, able to stick wounds on all kinds of infantry, from far away. I just can't decide how I like them better - in a HWS or in 10-man bubblewrap squads. In the HWS, hits are magnified, but split up, misses are ameliorated (since 1/3 hit on the scatter, you have less turnss where all miss, but less turnss where all hit.) In the HWS at least if they can't see they all shoot still.

I'm not too sure why they're being sold as comparable with lasguns - sure they share the same targets, but with double the range, +1 S and an AP value, and can also glance vehicles, barrage and pin. Pretty good lasgun! We're comparing the weakest small arm in the game with the weakest heavy weapon in the game, so I hope expectations aren't too high.

Can a list function without them? Hell ya. Can they bring value to a list? Hell ya. Clearly they aren't as important as bringing enough anti-tank weaponry, but bringing some along is not going to auto-break a list.

I'm personally hoping that the "leaked 6th ed" rules for pinning come true, because then we'd see a radical shift in the meta for mortars. a pin test with a penalty to leadership equal to the number of unsaved wounds will make these guys really shine. Same with Ratlings. That said, in this edition, a couple PBS in chimeras go a long way to making mortars more effective. You could potentially pick and choose which units you would rather save for later.

"oh, those marines in the crater are going to move and contest my objective? not anymore." =3

SoliderSnake wrote:I' a pin test with a penalty to leadership equal to the number of unsaved wounds will make these guys really shine. Same with Ratlings.

Hopefully, this would be so awesome.