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I have always liked the visual image of having mortars in my Foot guard. It just looks fluffy. Honestly of its a foot unit most likely it will have mortars and other heavy weapons supporting the advance. However fluff and game play rarely mix (prime example being mech vets. The IG went from an horde shooting army to an elite shooting army. However this is off topic.)

My question is, "Is there any way to run mortars where they arent just a point sink?" Pinning is practically worthless. As is the ap 6. I can not find a reason to run them.

Edit: Typos.

I gave mortars a solid go (3x HWSs worth), when I started foot guard, but they were one of the first things that got phased out. They're better than you would initially suspect, especially against power armor.

The problem with mortars, though, isn't the guard codex, it's 5th ed. meta in general. Mortars do nothing to vehicles of any kind, or any other heavier unit in the game. Meanwhile, they compete with free lasguns in foot lists and free heavy bolters/flamers in mech lists. In the end, they only wind up adding a little to what a guard army is already good at. As such, I wound up dumping them for heavy weapons that lasguns etc. aren't already enough for.

Which is kind of a shame, as I like the idea of mortars as well. Thankfully, 40k miniatures are a durable good, so all those mortars will still be there waiting if they ever become worth taking.

I run 2 HWSs worth of mortars, and they usually do well, I just wait to fire them till I pop a transport, then hit all the guys that just got out, have got 15 hits on a 5 man scout squad doing this before. Of course, I play a mainly gunline guard, and my scatter die seems unusually fond of the hit marker, so your results may vary.

Mortors are fairly poor but good in casual games for annoying your oppents if you have 60 points spare they can be ok but id rather spend the ponint on more lascannons or autocannons.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I have always liked the visual image of having mortars in my Foot guard. It just looks fluffy. Honestly of its a foot unit most likely it will have mortars and other heavy weapons supporting the advance.

My question is, "Is there any way to run mortars where they arent just a point sink?" Pinning is practically worthless. As is the ap 6. I can not find a reason to run them.

Well, yes and no. The main thing to remember is that the Guard Artillery is all about the surface area, NOT killing tanks. Of the many, possibly two could be decent vehicle killers, but poor ones.

Mortars specifically have a pretty decent advantage of sitting on an objective (taking it because they're troops) that's out of LoS and lobbing thier munitions on enemy held objectives. In addition, they can barrage, which is really helpful dropping them on units that are getting stuck in cover or just hopped out a destroyed vehicles, and the hits can add up quickly. Once is managed 15 hits from a single mortar team against a Space Marine squad who had been jettisoned from their rhino.

But I digress.

Mortars also have a surprising reach, and being able to hit things out of LoS where your other units can't.

Con wise, they are a frail unit, but keeping them out of sight and in cover could probably keep them alive long enough for another salvo. Sure they can compete with a Heavy Bolter/Flamer from Chimeras, however, they have a longer reach and can add far more hits. They can't kill vehicles, again, none of the artillery is really designed for it, but for some strange reason people want to compare them as vehicle killers when they're clearly not.

There's a reason why no one runs them in competitive armies. They look cool and they're very much in tune with the theme of the Imperial Guard, but they just don't work well with the mechanics of the game.

I like to stick one in my CCS which is usually hiding out of LOS anyways. For 10 points, it gives them something to do. It has more psychological than real effect; some people get really irritated when they can't effectively hide a valuable support model.

If I ever get my Psyker Battle Squad painted up, I could see trying Weaken Resolve + Mortar HWS for pinning. Weaken Resolve would be better used against most units to run them off the board though, so the pinning trick would probably be best against ATSKNF space marines.

But in most cases I'd rather pay a little extra and get a squad of lascannons or autocannons instead.

Mortars cost the same as lascannons on a vet squad. What you gonna take?

Testify wrote:Mortars cost the same as lascannons on a vet squad. What you gonna take?

What planet are you on? mortars are 15pts cheaper than lascannons.

Against a big horde army of tyranids where the save is 6+ generally, yeah, take mortars. Otherwise just play them, be safe in the knowledge that your army is badass fluffy, and try to make yourself a better player by not always playing uber-competitive lists.

Imperial Monkey wrote:

Testify wrote:Mortars cost the same as lascannons on a vet squad. What you gonna take?

What planet are you on? mortars are 15pts cheaper than lascannons.

Against a big horde army of tyranids where the save is 6+ generally, yeah, take mortars. Otherwise just play them, be safe in the knowledge that your army is badass fluffy, and try to make yourself a better player by not always playing uber-competitive lists.

HWT-60 points, Lascannon-20.
Almost all hordes will get a cover from the centre of the blast anyway unless your opponent is really, really stupid.

Oh right, you want to rephrase that there. What your origional post means is that with a veteran squad, giving them a mortar is the same as giving them a lascannon. Simple misunderstanding, that is all.
With a big tyranid horde it would still be worth something, much more than lascannons or autocannons just for the number of hits. After all, the more hits an wounds the more saves you have to make and the chances are that more will be failed.

In a competitive list, I agree, they arent very useful.

However, in most of my casual games I take at least two groups of them for fun and they have always served me well. Actually had a squad in the end of a game charge into assault with their mortars in tow and win. Ended up giving them the honors of the match and I think they came out it with "relentless" for the campaign. Rather funny.

It all depends on your definition of "competetive" if your local players are running anything vaguely related to Mech-Spam then you've got a points sink.

Lets look at it in more favourable circumstances, against Termagaunts, I assume considering i'm an Ork player that it is a guess range weapon, so keeping it out of LOS and on the furthest back part of the board makes perfect sense, lets compare it with some of the other thing suggested, 10 Guardsmen with Lasguns.

So 10 Wounds against 9.
In SV I assume they're both the same?
For amount of hits it's 10-9 or 20-9 (Assuming three hits on each blast marker)
But where they shine is constesting backfield objectives, the only way a troop choice can make it over there would be through Transport or flanking, if it's through the latter it means they're not hunting something for dangerous. If it's through transport I would assume the list has the means of dealing with said transport before it arrives.

I summary, they're good depending on what you want them for, I would use them as bait for flanking and to contest the backfield objectives whilst the rest goes to work.

InquisitorVaron wrote:But where they shine is constesting backfield objectives

except that a quick burst of scatter laser or heavy bolter fire will have them running off the board, if not wiped out.

HWSs are the HS choices of a guard army. The primary way you judge them is by how much killing power they put out. That they also score if your opponent ignores them is a nice little bonus, but I've found that it's rarely used, as HWSs tend to get pretty heavily targeted early on.

... especially if they were your only unit holding an objective.

Strangelooper wrote:I like to stick one in my CCS which is usually hiding out of LOS anyways. For 10 points, it gives them something to do. It has more psychological than real effect; some people get really irritated when they can't effectively hide a valuable support model.

If I ever get my Psyker Battle Squad painted up, I could see trying Weaken Resolve + Mortar HWS for pinning. Weaken Resolve would be better used against most units to run them off the board though, so the pinning trick would probably be best against ATSKNF space marines.

But in most cases I'd rather pay a little extra and get a squad of lascannons or autocannons instead.

I've had this used on me before, it works well if you need to pin a large infantry unit early on to slow their advance, but otherwise, it's not super effective. The problem is most of the things that the combo works well against, have ways of dealing with it, so it's a mixed bag

I love mortars myself, but only in larger point games would I dare use them. I have two general perposes I use them for; the first is putting on objecitves further back and out of sight, so they can still shoot, heavy bolter teams are better at this in most cases, depending on how dense the terrain is. The second thing I use them for is harrasing, and quite frankly its all they can do. Peppering squads hiding in cover seems to get people's attention more then you would think.

I am tryin one mortor team in each or my 2 PCSs tonight. I don't expect more of them than to sit on a rear objective and lob a couple shells. The squads also have flamers and can pull double duty guarding my flanks or my blob from assault. In this sense I am using the pcs as a Swiss army knife. Should be fun for a laugh.

While I largely agree with the above statements, I find them decently useful in a blob army.

I like them in the throw-away half of a combined squad. the 2 small blasts can churn out a lot of wounds on top of your lasguns in the right circumstance, and if you need to move them up instead it's not a total waste since you're only losing 10-15 points worth of firepower.

Pinning is a decent side-benefit, I mean it has the same odds of popping off as a moral check and against non-MEQ (or CSM) it can really put a wrench in the enemy works.

Sometimes I use a couple of mortar HWS as bubble wrap around Leman Russes or artillery to keep Deep Striking melta away from them while still being able to kill a model here and there. There are a lot of Green Tide players in my local meta and mortars also put a lot of hurt on big Ork squads that are a bit bunched up after a close combat, which is also nice. That said, if they were even 10 points more expensive I doubt I'd ever use them.

So Mortors in my PCS worked well, they killed some space marine scouts in cover. I'll keep using them in some iteration.

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:So Mortors in my PCS worked well, they killed some space marine scouts in cover. I'll keep using them in some iteration.

Thats what I find they work for, thinning large units and being annoying.

Kind of a waste of a slot, though. For only 15 more points, you could take a lascannon (or for 5 more, an autocannon), which would allow you to be more than just annoying with that PCS, while still not being too big of a target.

Ailaros wrote:Kind of a waste of a slot, though. For only 15 more points, you could take a lascannon (or for 5 more, an autocannon), which would allow you to be more than just annoying with that PCS, while still not being too big of a target.

Still, in my opinion the harrassing effect is something that seems to be of good use, and in a non-artillery army, the long ranged barrage is a useful tool to have at hand.

General_Marshall wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Kind of a waste of a slot, though. For only 15 more points, you could take a lascannon (or for 5 more, an autocannon), which would allow you to be more than just annoying with that PCS, while still not being too big of a target.

Still, in my opinion the harrassing effect is something that seems to be of good use, and in a non-artillery army, the long ranged barrage is a useful tool to have at hand.

If it wasn't a lasgun with a small blast marker, I'd agree.

Ailaros wrote:Kind of a waste of a slot, though. For only 15 more points, you could take a lascannon (or for 5 more, an autocannon), which would allow you to be more than just annoying with that PCS, while still not being too big of a target.

I already had 8 lascannons and 7 autocannons on the field. If I had an extra 30 points I would probably bring a MoO.

so far people have been saying 1 take one or two squads or even just one or two mortars. To me and the games i have been playing recenlty that is not the best way to run mortars the best way if your going to use them is then to commit to them and run a lot of them. My current list runs at least twelve some times 13 and they really can hurt by doing what guard do best. Weight of fire not quantiy. Add in a psyker squad and those bikers or thunder wolves have a better than not chance of running off the board. Of corse it is a point sink when they dont work but for 500 points i love my mortar team and there blob platoon wrapping.

Yes, but anything can create the appearance of effectiveness when spammed hard enough. In this case, you have to look at the opportunity cost.

What are you going to do more damage with, 5 mortar HWSs, 4 autocannon HWSs or 3 lascannon HWSs? Even if you already have lascannons and autocannons in your list elsewhere, the latter two (especially the lascannons) are likely to provide you with more killing power, given that they can handle more of the common targets that your lasguns aren't already good against than can mortars.

I mean, if your army was critically low on anti-light-infantry killing power (despite the fact that you need to take at least one platoon to have HWSs in the first place), then perhaps, but even then I'd rather take a hellhound or some hydras or something.

I agree with toumas, I dont run as many as him but mortars in numbers are amazing. only have 1 or two of them isn't very effective.

As far as Lascannons (because it seems everyone loves them) to me is a point sink. 1 shot per turn from each with a 50% chance to hit. Nothing is more frustrating than watching your a IS do more damage in a turn because all your LC's missed.

Edited for grammar and spelling

Regardless of how many Mortors are the right amount to take, every HW has a different role to play. One cannot argue one over the other when they are meant for different targets. It's about having the right tool in the toolbox. How many of you only keep hammers in their toolboxes? How many just keep screwdrivers? Ever try to hang a nail with a screwdrver? See my point. Take a list with no lascannons and you can't pop armor or transports reliably from turn 1 on. Refuse to take autocannons and you are leaving a strong and versatile weapon behind. Everyone's local gaming scene is also different thus requiring different combinations of tools in said toolbox. I am not a big fan of heavy bolters, but having 3 on a LRBT spits out a lot of volume of fire and performs quite well against the right targets. That being said its not just about having the right tools In the right quantity I would say its also about having those weapons on the right platforms. What works for me might not work for you in your local scene but if you understand what roles your army is deficient in then you can add in exactly what you need.

Silent way - most people put lascannons in their CCS for BS4 or use orders to reliably hit wih BS3 with those lascannons.

I find Mortars the better alternative to the Heavy Bolter, since it took a nerf in damage with the universal +4 Cover Save. Having two or three in the backfield can help throw wounds on squads you don't want to waste the high strength, low AP weapons against.

One cannot argue one over the other when they are meant for different targets. It's about having the right tool in the toolbox. How many of you only keep hammers in their toolboxes? How many just keep screwdrivers? Ever try to hang a nail with a screwdrver? That being said its not just about having the right tools In the right quantity I would say its also about having those weapons on the right platforms. What works for me might not work for you in your local scene but if you understand what roles your army is deficient in then you can add in exactly what you need.

This would be correct if we weren't talking about Guard, to a degree. Alot of players believe that the redundancy they show in their armies (as in Spamming Las Cannons and Auto Cannons) somehow overcomes the weapon's overall weaknesses (Hordes). Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I do not follow it because it doesn't work for me.

But the redundancy really depends on the local scene and the skill of the players you face.