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Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

I may be reading things wrong here, but are the American posters seriously suggesting NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION?

The irony...

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
Dominar






Melissia wrote:As a taxpayer, if I vote to have taxes directed towards helping the poor, I am therefor voting to direct MY money to help the poor.


I was under the impression you were unemployed? If not unemployed, underemployed in a salary range that probably does not net pay federal income tax?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:You would get more taking 50% of the top 1% than if you took 100% of the bottom twenty percent.

But that aside, increasing the tax on capital gains to be equal to the tax rate on income would help a lot as well.


And it's irrelevant because this is talking about marginal increases in revenue growth. Tens of billions per year kind of marginal. Immaterial set against the deficit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 17:03:37


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

sourclams wrote:
Melissia wrote:As a taxpayer, if I vote to have taxes directed towards helping the poor, I am therefor voting to direct MY money to help the poor.


I was under the impression you were unemployed? If not unemployed, underemployed in a salary range that probably does not net pay federal income tax?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:You would get more taking 50% of the top 1% than if you took 100% of the bottom twenty percent.

But that aside, increasing the tax on capital gains to be equal to the tax rate on income would help a lot as well.


And it's irrelevant because this is talking about marginal increases in revenue growth. Tens of billions per year kind of marginal. Immaterial set against the deficit.


It is also less relevant when you consider a increase of taxes on capital gains will lower the over all capital gains as the increased cost of investing is taken into account by the investors.

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Easy E wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Easy E wrote:
Frazzled wrote: no. Everyone must have skin in the game.


This expression confuses me, and I'm not sure I understand what exactly it is trying to say.

If you live in the same country don't you all ready have "skin" in the game? What happens to the country impacts you, right?

Maybe I'm missing somethign fundamental here.



No and no. If you have the power to vote to give benefits to yourself for no cost to yourself then you have no skin in the game. Either be part of a family unit that pays income taxes or don't be able to vote on any matters concerning taxing and spending.


Hmmmm, kind of like the only people who should be willing to vote are the ones who are willing to put their lives on the line to defend the nation as soldiers?


I'd be ok with that too. No more unnecessary wars. I didn't vote for a second term for Bush I because of Desert Storm. Thats why I had sepcifically voted FOR a Republican. Prior to that, Republicans generally didn't start wars (may have been the first actually).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 17:12:31


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

sourclams wrote:
Melissia wrote:As a taxpayer, if I vote to have taxes directed towards helping the poor, I am therefor voting to direct MY money to help the poor.


I was under the impression you were unemployed? If not unemployed, underemployed in a salary range that probably does not net pay federal income tax?


Aren't you making a false correlation that the only taxpayers are those which pay "net federal income tax"? Because a great deal of Americans don't make enough to pay federal income tax, but pay plenty of other tax: state, local, payroll, FICA, sales, possibly capital gains, etc etc etc....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 17:12:31


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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The Great State of Texas

Ouze wrote:
sourclams wrote:
Melissia wrote:As a taxpayer, if I vote to have taxes directed towards helping the poor, I am therefor voting to direct MY money to help the poor.


I was under the impression you were unemployed? If not unemployed, underemployed in a salary range that probably does not net pay federal income tax?


Aren't you making a false correlation that the only taxpayers are those which pay "net federal income tax"? Because a great deal of Americans don't make enough to pay federal income tax, but pay plenty of other tax: state, local, payroll, FICA, sales, possibly capital gains, etc etc etc....


True but the topic is income tax and cap gains. Thats the OP.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Servoarm Flailing Magos





The moment you talk about "taxpayers' money" you're suggesting a plutocracy - since the rich overwealmingly pay the most tax. Since, you know, they have the most money to pay. In the UK 50% of all income tax revenue is paid by the top 10%.
When I got a job and started paying taxes my opinions about the country didn't change really. Still ambivalent about "the expenses scandal" and all the other rubbish that in the grand scheme of things is pointless but we're expected to care about because of some vague notion about still owning money once it's been paid in taxation.

Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
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Made in us
Dominar






CptJake wrote:It is also less relevant when you consider a increase of taxes on capital gains will lower the over all capital gains as the increased cost of investing is taken into account by the investors.


I didn't even try to get into that topic because even our government officials seem to believe that behaviors will not change when the constraints do.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Last year I had an income that is not equal to zero, and thus this year I filed my taxes. I've filed taxes several times before (only one year after hitting eighteen did I have no income at all). But the amount is irrelevant-- I filed my taxes and submitted them to the federal government; ergo, I am a taxpayer. This discussion of "who is a taxpayer" is pointless and stupid.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/05/03 17:36:23


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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The Great State of Texas

Melissia wrote:Last year I had an income that is not equal to zero, and thus this year I filed my taxes. I've filed taxes several times before (only one year after hitting eighteen did I have no income at all). But the amount is irrelevant-- I filed my taxes and submitted them to the federal government; ergo, I am a taxpayer. This discussion of "who is a taxpayer" is pointless and stupid.


Actually, you didn't say you paid income taxes just then. You just said you filed your form. My mom filed a form too, but didn't pay taxes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 17:41:10


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Frazzled wrote:Actually, you didn't say you paid income taxes just then. You just said you filed your form. My mom filed a form too, but didn't pay taxes.
I refer you here:
Melissia wrote:This discussion of "who is a taxpayer" is pointless and stupid.
Emphasis mine.

And even if I didn't pay income tax, I still pay taxes every time I buy something, and numerous other examples of taxes as well, so I don't honestly care.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/05/03 17:42:34


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

SO you just admitted you don't pay income tax but want to spend my money WHO DOES PAY INCOME TAX on something you don't yourself. Awesome.

On the positive I also vote.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Frazzled wrote:SO you just admitted you don't pay income tax
No I didn't.
Melissia wrote:And even if I didn't pay income tax
Try actually reading posts you respond to some time.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

OK you're still evading . However this is a personal issue so I am backing off. It is just the OT and not like its a pressing humanitarian issue, or more importantly, lunch.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

News flash:

Even if you get a refund, you are still a taxpayer. The refund is simply the amount you OVERPAID over the course of the year based on your income.

Even if the Feds give you more back in the refund, there was between 1 day and 12 months where you did not have acces to the money, and the government was earning the interest on it (or otherwise investing/using it) instead of you.

Edit: This assumes you receive a W2

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 20:44:09


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The Great State of Texas

Thats amazingly insightful in answering an issue no one brought up...

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

Frazzled wrote:Thats amazingly insightful in answering an issue no one brought up...


And less than accurate as some folks get 'credit' in with their refund check and receive more (in some case MUCH more) than was withheld during the course of the year. And failure to understand how to properly fill out a W4 is no reason to whine that uncle sam took out too much to begin with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 20:52:50


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Guys, if you want only taxpayers to vote you merely need to eliminate all other taxes and establish a simple voting tax of between $0.01 and $100,000,000 per voter per election.

The desireable level of the tax is left to the reader as an exercise in political economy.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

CptJake wrote:
And less than accurate as some folks get 'credit' in with their refund check and receive more (in some case MUCH more) than was withheld during the course of the year.


Yes, but for the purposes of achieving the figure of ~50% of US citizens not paying taxes, one has to exclude people who simply are refunded what was withheld, which is dubious statistical gamesmanship at the best of times.

Of course, this is a lay conversation about politics and policy, so its all basically just people picking out numbers they like without bothering to consider how those numbers were produced.

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CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

Kilkrazy wrote:Guys, if you want only taxpayers to vote you merely need to eliminate all other taxes and establish a simple voting tax of between $0.01 and $100,000,000 per voter per election.

The desireable level of the tax is left to the reader as an exercise in political economy.


As far as I can tell, you're about the only one bringing that dumb idea. And it really isn't relevant to the OP.

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel







One interesting thing about this I must point out to all the British readers is the glory days of Philanthropy the Victorian Period. When our Great-Great Grandfathers all got together and said "We are men of means and wealth, there are many without, let us build that which society needs".

And they did, from Terraced housing to Parks to Schools to Hospitals to Universities. This great social, philanthropic good seemed to be en vogue and very much the right thing to do both politically, socially and morally.

When did we stop? When did we all decide to ignore what our progressive forbears did and decide to keep and horde wealth. When was the watershed? And why did we stop making huge social changes with private money, just because it was the right thing to do? It seems that this Morally tempered, responsible capitalism is interesting and I really like the idea it can come back, but it seems Greed and avarice are now core to society. I saw that TV programme "The Real Wives of Orange County" today, the whole of that Car Crash of a TV show underlines how society is wrong and shallow avarice and self servience is corrupting and rottern.

For the record I believe in a direct Tax system so all strata of society pay the same 35% (or whatever) with the exception that it doesn't kick in until you earn say an arbitary amount (e.g just below the Average national earnings so £12,000 or whatever).

The wealth creators argument is nonsense, without workers they would earn nothing. It is a team element, like society, I don't believe in dodging Tax. A responsible citizen obeys the Law and pays their taxes, no more no less. Those who dodge tax are irresponsible and do not deserve to reap the benefits of an ordered and prosperous society.

Well done to Warren Buffet and Stephen King, for speaking sensible truths which will make society fairer and more cohesive.

EDIT - Someone paid a $107 Million for a painting yesterday, how much could that person have done with that? How many Thousands of Families helped? How many children immunised? How much Health care? How many School Text books? How much would a Trust fund of this amount give out over 100 years? Now they have a Canvas of a Man screaming, which is how i hope they feel when they realise they bought this one item when they could have done massive social good. It makes me want to scream.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/05/03 22:52:52


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Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

Why did you buy the computer you're posting on? You don't need it. In fact, you could have given the money to a poor family instead. Y'know, to spend in Iceland/Ladbrokes/Bargain Booze (delete as appropriate).

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Swindon, Wiltshire, UK

Don't give money to the poor, spend money to help the poor.

It's the old "give a man a fish" deal.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

Personally, I think a very important principle applies:

Don't hate, emulate.

Seriously. If you're not rich, and you're angry about it, and you look around and see people doing well, hating them and trying to drag them down a few pegs will not improve your life. If you're not rich, and you're angry about it, go out and GET rich. That WILL improve your life.

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

mwnciboo wrote:One interesting thing about this I must point out to all the British readers is the glory days of Philanthropy the Victorian Period. When our Great-Great Grandfathers all got together and said "We are men of means and wealth, there are many without, let us build that which society needs".

And they did, from Terraced housing to Parks to Schools to Hospitals to Universities. This great social, philanthropic good seemed to be en vogue and very much the right thing to do both politically, socially and morally.

When did we stop? When did we all decide to ignore what our progressive forbears did and decide to keep and horde wealth. When was the watershed?


That's an interesting question. I read an article in a newspaper about the state of Philanthropy in the world, and right now the UK is one of the worst. Yet the US ranks highly, with a high proportion of the 'super rich' (Warren Buffet, Bill Gates etc.) giving far more than their UK counterparts. I have a theory that it is how one encounters that wealth that determines the extent of their philanthropy. In the same way that the industrialists of the 19th century had new-found wealth,the likes of Buffet and Gates came to their wealth despite relatively more humble origins. They can still relate to other people in society as they were once part of it, and so they try and do what they can to help. I think moneyed families, and parts of society such as the 'old boy network' in the UK are far less likely as they don't necessarily see themselves as part of the same system.

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Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

Perhaps it's just that they feel like they give enough to society through taxation.

CAVEAT: I'm not saying that they do, just that it might be their perception.

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Pacific wrote:
That's an interesting question. I read an article in a newspaper about the state of Philanthropy in the world, and right now the UK is one of the worst. Yet the US ranks highly, with a high proportion of the 'super rich' (Warren Buffet, Bill Gates etc.) giving far more than their UK counterparts.


It may also have something to do with your tax system. In the US there is a strong incentive to engage in philanthropy for the purposes of securing tax deductions.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in au
Rough Rider with Boomstick




Brisbane, Australia

Albatross wrote:Personally, I think a very important principle applies:

Don't hate, emulate.

Seriously. If you're not rich, and you're angry about it, and you look around and see people doing well, hating them and trying to drag them down a few pegs will not improve your life. If you're not rich, and you're angry about it, go out and GET rich. That WILL improve your life.


If this was ideal meritocracy then your argument might hold some weight.

Unfortunately, it isn't and it doesn't.

sebster wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Its a known fact that Aussies are genetically disposed towards crime, we intentionally set them up that way.

But only awesome crimes like bushranging and, if I understand the song correctly, sheep stealing and suicide.
 
   
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Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Albatross wrote:Why did you buy the computer you're posting on? You don't need it. In fact, you could have given the money to a poor family instead.


The distilled essence of why these threads are so silly. To wit: pontificating about the wasting of money from a completely superfluous machine that generally costs a fair amount of... um... money.

Well done, you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/04 06:39:50


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Haters gon' hate. 
   
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Lieutenant Colonel







Albatross wrote:Personally, I think a very important principle applies:

Don't hate, emulate.

Seriously. If you're not rich, and you're angry about it, and you look around and see people doing well, hating them and trying to drag them down a few pegs will not improve your life. If you're not rich, and you're angry about it, go out and GET rich. That WILL improve your life.


I'm not angry at rich/wealthy people, I'm angry at horders and greedy people who take more and give little, don't pay their fair share of TAX and don't see how detrimental it is for society. Those who dodge Tax, and don't seem to understand how lucky they are, the worship of wealth and materialism is bad for society. This isn't Communism, it's social responsible capitalism.

In the UK if you earn between £99,000 to £114,000 your effective tax rate is 55%, where as if you earn above £114,000 it's 45%. Explain that? So you pay less TAX if you earn more?

Don't Hate, emulate isn't a cure, it actually perpetuates this 1% of people controlling 25% of the wealth.

Most Millionaires have their Pay paid into a Company avoiding the 45% TAX Rate, and paying CORPORATION TAX @ 27%. Quite alot of people who earn over £99,000 do this and avoid the PAYE TAX system, this is wrong. The burden of TAX proportionally is on the Middle Earners or Middle Class.

It's not about bringing people down, it's about encouraging people to be socially responsible. Just because you are wealthy doesn't mean you should be beyond reproach or without morals. Bill Gates and others have given away Billions, and he has done incredible amounts of good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_philanthropists

For the Record - Wealth doesn't equal an Improved Life. Possibly more comfort, but by what measure can determine if a life is improved?

@MONSTER RAIN thats such a ridiculous statement, a Laptop costs £300 some of the richest people earn more than that in a single minute and yet pay protionally less TAX than me. What is wrong with me earning £50,000 (paying TAX @ 40%) a year buying a Car and a Laptop and a house, but also giving by Direct Debit to CANCER RESEARCH UK? To say give away your material goods is great in principle but it would kill Capitalism if we started doing this, and thereby the system and even less people would benefit from the increasing growth in world wealth. It is a vacuous argument for Rampant Capitalism and thats why the Worlds in a Complete Mess Financially, because of a lack of responsibility brought on my uncontrolled avarice.

The Argument of give a man a fish holds zero water as does give up all material things to better others. Better to give the man immunisation and education, but most of these people live in highly corrupt societies with little or no infrastructure or oppressive regimes or murderous groups (like Somalia for example) so how do you do it? So buy a man a fish is bollox it shows the comprehension level of a child or willful naivety.

dogma wrote:
Pacific wrote:
That's an interesting question. I read an article in a newspaper about the state of Philanthropy in the world, and right now the UK is one of the worst. Yet the US ranks highly, with a high proportion of the 'super rich' (Warren Buffet, Bill Gates etc.) giving far more than their UK counterparts.


It may also have something to do with your tax system. In the US there is a strong incentive to engage in philanthropy for the purposes of securing tax deductions.


We actually do get TAX breaks for Philanthropic Works and Donations and it is a popular way of Big earners reducing their Tax bill. The Government screwed up a couple of weeks ago trying to close this supposed Loop hole, and brought down the wrath of the Extremely Wealth and Charities who gain from this.

The Yanks are extremely generous by comparison.

This message was edited 20 times. Last update was at 2012/05/04 08:27:23


Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest! 
   
 
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