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Banzaimash wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:For a BT/DE army, it better to think of them not as allies, but as two forces forced to ignore each other to kill the bigger threat on the battlefield...

The same could happen when BT/Tau, or BT/Eldar are on the same battlefield, but are forced to attack the Ork horde coming their way for either of them to have any chance of escape.

Black Templars wouldn't think like that though, they'd just kill everyone until either they'd won or they were dead. I remember reading somewhere where a Black Templar ship was pursuing an Eldar one, then they both came under attack by a much larger Dark Eldar force. Rather than work with the Eldar, they simply got to killing both Eldar and Dark Eldar.

It's tales like this one that make the BT so compelling. It may seem wierd, but I think most BT players would prefer not being able have so many ally options. Just the fact that you can, cheapens the BT lore.

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:These are the same Sisters who showed up to the homeworld of the Space Wolves demanding entrance, and have (despite how flimsily rationalized in the fluff it was) attacked and decapitated Space Marine Chapters in the past.

The funny thing is that according to this chart they get along better with the Space Wolves, so maybe we should just realize that the table is largely random and not reflective of the fluff at all.

wd are talking about the real chart in the book, not the old tourney one. Try to keep up.

And just because you didn't like it doesn't make the Sisters' purges "flimsily rationalized". Marines are not meant to be immune from Imperial retribution, deal with it

It isn't about liking it or not. Don't care. It's just a very silly and unbelievable story.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:For sure, even the Codex Chapters wouldn't want them around most of the time.

Well, that's your opinion, but it's not what the fluff in GW's books says.

Dunno, we've got examples of Space Marines not wanting them around, so you can stop making stuff up, lol. Present an alternate opinion if you feel so inclined, but don't pretend against fact.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Black Templars are fanatical warriors dedicated the service of the Imperium, and adhere to the archaic creeds of the Great Crusade, abhoring psykers because they were forbidden ten thousand years ago. They have no mystical abilities.
The Sisters are fanatical warriors dedicated to the Ecclessiarchy and its deification of the Emperor, something the Black Templars very specifically deny. They have magical (albeit completely nonsensical) abilities derived from this worship of the non-God who gives magical powers apparently (Don't ask me, no it doesn't make any sense).

They do make sense if you'd simply read the Sisters' background and analyze the actual portrayal of their powers instead of hating on them. Stop claiming they are shooting lightning out of their eyes.
The Sororitas' abilities are as much "magic" as the Black Templars' Vows, or all Marines' Feel No Pain in general.

They suddenly get significantly stronger, faster, their shooting becomes inexplicably more powerful, or they gain invulnerable saves. That's pretty fething magical since it has no explanation grounded in what could be considered "normal" and the book describes it as the intervention of the Emperor, something that shouldn't be possible. I'm not hating on the Sisters. I'm hating on GW for making them stupid. If they got rewritten to be like their 2nd Edition incarnation that fits with the fluff of the universe, I'd not care about the Sisters one way or the other.

Lynata wrote:

You need a primer on the Eldar race. GW's list of Eldar allies, and their levels, makes sense. Especially regarding Dark Eldar.

The funny part is, you use the official material as absolute gospel most of the time. Now, the official material lists something in opposition to your beliefs and suddenly you have a "more fluffy" chart, lol.

Not sayin', just sayin'.

In the Grim Darkness of the Future........there is only opinion on fictional characters.

This guy, however, will be building Sisters and Steel Legion. WHAT UP FLUFF

Veteran Sergeant wrote:wd are talking about the real chart in the book, not the old tourney one. Try to keep up.

I am talking about the very same chart. If you'd happen to take a look, the SoB's level of alliance is one level above their alliance with the Black Templars.

Try to keep up.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It isn't about liking it or not. Don't care. It's just a very silly and unbelievable story.

A story? Which one are you referring to in particular?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Dunno, we've got examples of Space Marines not wanting them around, so you can stop making stuff up, lol. Present an alternate opinion if you feel so inclined, but don't pretend against fact.

You mean like you do?

"Occasionally the Battle Sisters will even have common cause with the fierce Space marines of the Adeptus Astartes. Although the relationship between these two organisations is only civil at best, the Space Marines and Battle Sisters both respect each other's prowess and skill at arms. Many times the foes of the Imperium have been eradicated by a combined attack from these two elite forces."
- 2E C:SoB

Some Chapters like the Flesh Tearers don't want them around, others, like the Black Templars or the Salamanders have no problem with them. I believe that the alliance levels I chose for the various combinations of Marines + Sisters are a pretty good representation of this.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They suddenly get significantly stronger, faster, their shooting becomes inexplicably more powerful, or they gain invulnerable saves. That's pretty fething magical since it has no explanation grounded in what could be considered "normal"

Have you heard of the concept "mind over matter"? There are theories and studies about the effects of psychology upon the body, with some pretty impressive examples. Tiny Asian people also shouldn't be able to whack blocks of concrete apart with their bare hands, yet stuff like that happens. The Sisters' fanatism is their conduit to achieve this, and it's not too hard to muster a minimum of "suspension of disbelief" to grant this concept the necessary viability - at least when we're talking about a setting that features lulzy mutations, warp magic, demons and green-skinned monsters procreating via spores. Otherwise you just come across like TFG who complains about this or that move being "silly" in some martial arts or samurai movie.

And I'm pretty sure we've been over this once already, or am I misremembering?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:[...] and the book describes it as the intervention of the Emperor, something that shouldn't be possible.

Like the book describes the Emperor's Champion as having divine visions?

"For millennia, the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war, combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled."
- 3E C:WH

The Sisters abilities being derived from some sort of divine power is about as "accurate" an observation as the Space Wolves' claim to tap into some sort of natural force. The Space Wolves don't, they're using plain old psychic powers, they just don't realize it. Just like people prefer to believe in the Emperor protecting them rather than acknowledging sheer luck or determination. Because, you know, they're religious.

I'm missing the old pre-battle Sacred Rites because they were cool, and certainly less "fancy" than the Acts of Faith - but the latter still fit the original image. Miracles and legends have to come into being somehow, after all.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The funny part is, you use the official material as absolute gospel most of the time. Now, the official material lists something in opposition to your beliefs and suddenly you have a "more fluffy" chart, lol.
Not sayin', just sayin'.

The official material is in opposition to itself, until they release fluff that actually explains it.
Until the new fluff matches the new chart, my chart is indeed "more fluffy" because it actually aims to take the fluff into consideration.

Mahtamori wrote:You need a primer on the Eldar race.

You're probably right - it would have been "safer" if I had limited my chart to the Imperial forces, for I know far more about them than about the other armies. My research has always been very "focused", even though I occasionally dabble in xenos lore. I do like all of the alien armies, too, just not enough to commit myself to them with the same level of dedication.

d3m01iti0n wrote:This guy, however, will be building Sisters and Steel Legion. WHAT UP FLUFF

Sounds pretty cool. Armageddon 3 background, then?
I've got a list of the Orders that were active there during the war, just in case you're interested in colour scheme options.

Pentacostals claim to have visions, fall over, and speak in tongues. They're either speaking with God's voice, or they're full of crap. The Emperor's Champion is just a Space Pentacostal.

And you are right. We've been over this before, and you didn't get it then either. Mind over matter is a trite quip. The mind never allows one to defeat physics. There are actually very simple explanations behind the ability to break boards and bricks. It is'nt about believing so hard your hand turns into a jackhammer. The Sisters Acts of Faith clearly break the rules of the universe. You don't believe your bullets to penetrate armor better, lol. They're still bound by simple equations. One doesn't suddenly generate a magical invulnerability to damage, without being magical. One doesn't believe themselves to be 66% stronger, or 33% faster.

The Acts of Faith are stupid. That's where it begins and ends. The Sacred Rites made the Sisters a unique(ish) army with a place in the 40K universe. Mutations, psychic powers, etc, that's all part of 40K. The Sisters, on the other had, are very specifically not psykers, and their powers very specifically generated by the Emperor, which according to the established fluff, isn't possible. This isn't about suspension of disbelief. It's about suspension of thinking at all. In a galaxy where just about anything goes, the Sisters have managed to figure out how to go to one of the few places that isn't allowed.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You don't believe your bullets to penetrate armor better, lol.

http://www.marksmanship.info/chapter7.htm

Note further that this Act of Faith is called "Divine Guidance", not "Divine Penetration".

Veteran Sergeant wrote:One doesn't suddenly generate a magical invulnerability to damage, without being magical.

And they don't.
To quote: "Such is the power of their belief that the Emperor will protect them from mortal injury that the Adepta Sororitas can shrug off the most severe of wounds."

Neither does the Codex claim that this ability actually comes from the Emperor nor that they are somehow invulnerable. What the Codex states is that they receive a wound, but that "their belief" allows them to ignore it. This is called pain suppression and sheer dedication. As a veteran you should be familiar at least with the latter.

Really, it's the exact same case with the Marines and their FNP rule making them "invulnerable" to damage, simply by ignoring the injury. They still get injured, it just doesn't have an effect on the immediate battle at hand. They keep on fighting. Like the Sisters, in that instance.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:One doesn't believe themselves to be 66% stronger, or 33% faster.

Actually, one does so.

This shouldn't be a big surprise. Nervousness causes people to fail, confidence allows you to get the most out of your body.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Sisters, on the other had, are very specifically not psykers, and their powers very specifically generated by the Emperor [...]

Stop making things up, please. You're just plain wrong, as the provided quotes should have established.

Or perhaps "wrong" is not the correct term - it would be better to say that your interpretation of the Sisters isn't exactly supported by the fluff in their studio material.
I do recommend going over said material again, though. Perhaps you merely misremember or have misread the texts, completely missing the difference between Church propaganda and in-setting reality, given a comparison of your claims with the actual contents of the books.

Either that, or ... well, continue to hate on the Sisters and claim that *I'm* the one who "doesn't get it" even though your so-called facts are nothing but made-up personal opinion conflicting with what has been written on the subject. Expect an appropriate counter-argument each time you do so, though. I wouldn't want anyone else to pick up this interpretation, at least not without knowing what the books actually say.

The beauty of the Sisters' Acts of Faith has always been that they were worded so vague that you can see them as divine magic ... just like you can see them as as mental fortitude. By ignoring the latter you are just constructing an artificial conflict for the sake of ... well, for what? To make them look bad? To challenge their image? The SoB already are a fairly unpopular army compared to others, I believe they can do without people fanning the flames with their bias.

Why do people keep posting the old table?

This one is from the book.

As you can see, Sisters of Battle are "Allies of Convenience" to all the Loyalist Astartes except the Black Templars--whom they are "Desperate Allies" with.
There is only one army which they are "Battle Brothers" with, which is the Imperial Guard.

Black Templars, on the other hand, are "Battle Brothers" with the Imperial Guard and all of the Loyalist Astartes except the Grey Knights.

I'm not sure how this does not make sense. The Black Templars certainly are Crusaders and upholders of the Imperium, but it's important to note that they are still Astartes and the Ecclesiarchy and Astartes do not get on well at the very best of times.

Lynata wrote:
Really, it's the exact same case with the Marines and their FNP rule making them "invulnerable" to damage, simply by ignoring the injury. They still get injured, it just doesn't have an effect on the immediate battle at hand. They keep on fighting. Like the Sisters, in that instance.

The only time I have seen a Marine get FNP, outside of Mostly Bionic Vhaplain Cassius, is via an Apothecary or Equivilent, in which case the explanantion is that they DO get woumded, they DO know and believe it, bilut resilience, and the Apothecaries painkillers and battlefield medication just blocks out the pain. So in reality the autocannon did just blow a guy's arm off, except Super Morphine allows him to ignore.it. Whereas SoB can be literally invulnerable.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Pentacostals claim to have visions, fall over, and speak in tongues. They're either speaking with God's voice, or they're full of crap. The Emperor's Champion is just a Space Pentacostal.

The Sisters Acts of Faith clearly break the rules of the universe. You don't believe your bullets to penetrate armor better, lol. They're still bound by simple equations. One doesn't suddenly generate a magical invulnerability to damage, without being magical. One doesn't believe themselves to be 66% stronger, or 33% faster.

The Acts of Faith are stupid. That's where it begins and ends. The Sacred Rites made the Sisters a unique(ish) army with a place in the 40K universe. Mutations, psychic powers, etc, that's all part of 40K. The Sisters, on the other had, are very specifically not psykers, and their powers very specifically generated by the Emperor, which according to the established fluff, isn't possible. .

So...you're perfectly fine with women gaining super-natural powers if some daemonic diety from another dimension grants them it. But you consider the same from (arguably) the most powerful psyker in the galaxy to be unreasonable? You are aware that this is 40k right?

No, thats not true. Black Library publications have Living Saints and Acts of Faith in them. The Horus Heresy books also have these "divine" connections and invocation of holy powers. The established fluff has made it very clear that the Emperor has limited ability to act through his followers and confer strength upon them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:


I'm not sure how this does not make sense. The Black Templars certainly are Crusaders and upholders of the Imperium, but it's important to note that they are still Astartes and the Ecclesiarchy and Astartes do not get on well at the very best of times.

Theres a big difference between a tension between estblished allies who are part of the same Empire and their avowed enemies. SoB having only one ally is, well, odd. I can understand Space Wolves since they had their homeworld invaded by the Church. But others shouldn't actually be more likely to ally with xenos scum or undead machines than fellow Imperials.

Kanluwen wrote:As you can see, Sisters of Battle are "Allies of Convenience" to all the Loyalist Astartes except the Black Templars--whom they are "Desperate Allies" with. [...] I'm not sure how this does not make sense. The Black Templars certainly are Crusaders and upholders of the Imperium, but it's important to note that they are still Astartes and the Ecclesiarchy and Astartes do not get on well at the very best of times.

Have you been following the thread?
The question is as to why the SoB suddenly get along better with the Space Wolves than the Black Templars. With the latter they share a history of joint operations, including the Battle of Fire and Blood as referenced in the BT Codex. With the former they share a bloody conflict on Fenris, mutual distrust (crazed fanatics vs mutant heretics) and knowledge of the Wolves murdering a bunch of priests in cold blood.

My surprise at this chart should thus be somewhat understandable.

Deadshot wrote:The only time I have seen a Marine get FNP, outside of Mostly Bionic Vhaplain Cassius, is via an Apothecary or Equivilent, in which case the explanantion is that they DO get woumded, they DO know and believe it, bilut resilience, and the Apothecaries painkillers and battlefield medication just blocks out the pain. So in reality the autocannon did just blow a guy's arm off, except Super Morphine allows him to ignore.it. Whereas SoB can be literally invulnerable.

No, they can't. Where do you read this? I have provided the quote above - it literally says they get wounded but ignore the effects of the injury. How is this different from a Marine blocking out the pain, as you say?

And I thought FNP was more prevalent, my bad. I'm sure I can dig up similar examples of abilities granting a miniature "physical" effects by having a psychological origin, though, if that should truly be required.

Some more citations:

"Their faith and devotion to the Emperor can be manifested as a potent force in itself, empowering Sisters with all manner of miraculous abilities, such as shrugging off wounds that would kill a normal person or holding them fast in the face of overwhelming odds."

"For millennia, the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war, combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled."

Basically, they chant and pray themselves into a state of mind that allows them to reach to the boundaries of what their highly trained bodies are capable of. To the people witnessing this, it's a miracle. You know, a bit like Buddhist monks walking over a bunch of glowing coals. It may well have reasonable explanations, but the people don't care. They see a miracle. We have sufficient examples of such artificial mystification in human history; religion is full of stories about miraculous feats, and I would say that many of them may actually hold a grain of truth, but were simply mis-interpreted when there may have been a perfectly good explanation.

Totalwar1402 wrote:The established fluff has made it very clear that the Emperor has limited ability to act through his followers and confer strength upon them.

To be fair, this bit is what the people believe. It doesn't have to be the truth. It can be, or maybe it isn't. This is up for individual interpretation.

Although non-studio sources can some times be much less vague. FFG's Blood of Martyrs is a lot more "magical", for example, and a clear nod towards your interpretation. It's not one I subscribe to, but that does not make either of us wrong.

Lynata wrote:The question is as to why the SoB suddenly get along better with the Space Wolves than the Black Templars. With the latter they share a history of joint operations, including the Battle of Fire and Blood as referenced in the BT Codex. With the former they share a bloody conflict on Fenris, mutual distrust (crazed fanatics vs mutant heretics) and knowledge of the Wolves murdering a bunch of priests in cold blood.

The BL novel Helsreach also features Sisters of Battle and Black Templars working together, making a desperate last stand against the Orks during the 3rd War for Armageddon. (I think this is a different event from the Battle of Fire and Blood- though I don't have my BT Codex handy to doublecheck). Still, BT and SoB seem to have more in common than a lot of the other alliances on there.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Acts of Faith are stupid. That's where it begins and ends. The Sacred Rites made the Sisters a unique(ish) army with a place in the 40K universe. Mutations, psychic powers, etc, that's all part of 40K. The Sisters, on the other had, are very specifically not psykers, and their powers very specifically generated by the Emperor, which according to the established fluff, isn't possible. This isn't about suspension of disbelief. It's about suspension of thinking at all. In a galaxy where just about anything goes, the Sisters have managed to figure out how to go to one of the few places that isn't allowed.

No, they're just Space Pentecostals.

On a more serious note, the Black Templars would probably count as having gone to that place as well. Codex: Black Templars is explicit: the Emperor's Champion not only recieves visions of the Emperor but is guided by Him in battle. He sure as hell isn't a psyker (or is he? *cue dramatic music*), so he presumably does it in a way similar to the Sisters.

Actually, I like to liken the Black Templars to Space Pentecostals. After all, the Marine who will be the Emperor's Champion supposedly has visions, and then tells the chaplain about it so he gets special treatment and fancy gear.

Pfft. Charlatans.