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But this is the Black Templars we are talking about here. If a crusader was fighting 10 orks but 5 eldar were not fighting the templar, the templar would grab both an ork and eldar at the same time and destory them, not put aside differences and just fight orks for the mean time. Besides Templars would not take a chance to ally with any xenos for their trickery.

Orks can ally with nigh on anyone. I feel like grabbing the rules for some and applying them to the Orks, notably JOTWW

Joey wrote:If you think it's unfluffy, don't play it.
The current rules allow a hardline Inquisitor to have a retinue made up of captured demon princes, no one complains.
Fluff is what you make it.

I complained dammit lol

but jokes aside

for me its always been

Fluff-modeling-rules

If they mess up the last one i generally dont mind, but mess up the fluff and i get annoyed a bit, yo are right though if i dont like it then dont do it, so i wont, im just making a point that these allies rules seem badly thought out.

Woah Woah Woah... hold one just one second, I thought Allies Rules were taken out, when did they get put back in, and why does it seem like everyone is an ally of everyone?

Phototoxin wrote:

Lobukia wrote:
SoB (perfect fit, should just fold into the BT dex).

AMEN BROTHER!

Totally OT but I do believe a 'codex witch hunters' involving SoB, Burny things and black templars would be absolutely amazing!

Also as I keep saying everywhere I do wonder if the ally rules are for multi-player games or 'with opponent consent' type things

Actually, the Sisters and Black Templars are very, very unlikely allies. Just because they both have a religious theme to them doesn't change the fact that they'd be fiercely competitive and mistrustful of eachother in reality, as often happens when two competing organizations get close to one another.

The Sisters are intolerable busybodies. The Black Templars are near-heretical rules-flaunting, headstrong crusaders.

If you were hoarding a giant cache of unauthorized Space Marines, ships, wargear, and munitions, would you be excited about working with the galaxy's biggest tattletales? msn-wink.gif These are the same Sisters who showed up to the homeworld of the Space Wolves demanding entrance, and have (despite how flimsily rationalized in the fluff it was) attacked and decapitated Space Marine Chapters in the past. I'm kinda shocked that they got "Grudging" with the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels, lol. I'd say the Sisters working with anything other than Codex Chapters would be very strained. For sure, even the Codex Chapters wouldn't want them around most of the time.

I mean, I can see the BT and SoB pairing up from time to time, but as far as being the "perfect fit" or ideal for being folded into the BT (or a new Witch Hunters) codex is kinda silly. And as was mentioned on a similar thread on another forum, the BT actually fought against the Ecclessiarchy during the Age of Apostasy.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:

Lobukia wrote:
SoB (perfect fit, should just fold into the BT dex).

AMEN BROTHER!

Totally OT but I do believe a 'codex witch hunters' involving SoB, Burny things and black templars would be absolutely amazing!

Also as I keep saying everywhere I do wonder if the ally rules are for multi-player games or 'with opponent consent' type things

Actually, the Sisters and Black Templars are very, very unlikely allies. Just because they both have a religious theme to them doesn't change the fact that they'd be fiercely competitive and mistrustful of eachother in reality, as often happens when two competing organizations get close to one another.

The Sisters are intolerable busybodies. The Black Templars are near-heretical rules-flaunting, headstrong crusaders.

If you were hoarding a giant cache of unauthorized Space Marines, ships, wargear, and munitions, would you be excited about working with the galaxy's biggest tattletales? msn-wink.gif These are the same Sisters who showed up to the homeworld of the Space Wolves demanding entrance, and have (despite how flimsily rationalized in the fluff it was) attacked and decapitated Space Marine Chapters in the past. I'm kinda shocked that they got "Grudging" with the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels, lol. I'd say the Sisters working with anything other than Codex Chapters would be very strained. For sure, even the Codex Chapters wouldn't want them around most of the time.

I mean, I can see the BT and SoB pairing up from time to time, but as far as being the "perfect fit" or ideal for being folded into the BT (or a new Witch Hunters) codex is kinda silly. And as was mentioned on a similar thread on another forum, the BT actually fought against the Ecclessiarchy during the Age of Apostasy.

One of the biggest points of fluff in the current Black Templars Codex is the Battle of Fire and Blood during the Vinculus Crusade, where the Black Templars happily teamed up with an Inquisitor and forces from the Order of the Bloody Rose. Just sayin'.

I was gonna say.

Sisters of Battle working with the Black Templars is one of the more prominent entries in the codex.

So if the BT work with th eGK are all the BTs gonna be mind-wipes and exterminatus-ed for knowing that the GKs exist?

They are not completely mind wiped as far as I understand it. That would damage a valuable commodity to the Imperium. They have more of a manipulation than a complete wipe. An amnesia of sorts, which is a lot safer but time consuming.

BlaxicanX wrote:I was gonna say.

Sisters of Battle working with the Black Templars is one of the more prominent entries in the codex.

Guess somebody got smarter then since that codex was published, because on the sample ally sheet, they are listed as an unholy alliance.

I mean, I'm not saying it has to be either way, and certainly there are believable scenarios if the Blood Angels can ally with the Necrons. But they aren't ideologically identical, nor even parallel.

How is BT and SoB allying count as an unholy alliance? Thats the very definition of a Holy alliance...

They're like, both religious crusader fanatics who are intolerant, venerate the Emperor as a God and recieve holy powers from him. WTF? How are BT more likely to side with some of those factions over SoB and vice versa?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:I was gonna say.

Sisters of Battle working with the Black Templars is one of the more prominent entries in the codex.

Guess somebody got smarter then since that codex was published, because on the sample ally sheet, they are listed as an unholy alliance.

I mean, I'm not saying it has to be either way, and certainly there are believable scenarios if the Blood Angels can ally with the Necrons. But they aren't ideologically identical, nor even parallel.

How is a theoretical (and probably minor) theological difference worse than allying with the aliens you are sworn to exterminate? There hasn't IMO been any suggestion that BT and SoB don't get along. Unlike the Space Wolves whose homeworld they actually invaded but count as grudging allies. They have essentially the same theme, credos and holy warrior abilities. Why would they not be natural allies?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:[ BT actually fought against the Ecclessiarchy during the Age of Apostasy.

And it was the SoB bodyguard of Goge Vandire that hacked the leader of the Ecclesiarchs head off because he misled them. There shouldn't be any hard feelings over this issue. Yet the Space Wolves forgive their homeworld being invaded?

Formosa wrote:

Joey wrote:If you think it's unfluffy, don't play it.
The current rules allow a hardline Inquisitor to have a retinue made up of captured demon princes, no one complains.
Fluff is what you make it.

I complained dammit lol

but jokes aside

for me its always been

Fluff-modeling-rules

If they mess up the last one i generally dont mind, but mess up the fluff and i get annoyed a bit, yo are right though if i dont like it then dont do it, so i wont, im just making a point that these allies rules seem badly thought out.

For me it's:

(modelling = rules) >>>>> fluff

In many cases I don't even read the fluff for any given codex that I own. I find it amusing that people are getting riled up about allies when far more preposterous match ups happen on the tabletop every day.

Table looks okay, as long as unholy alliances have to take tests to avoid attacking each other, try to cut down fleeing comrades, etc. Grudging alliances should disallow unit mixing and units from using allied characters leaderships. I think the BT/SoB alliance should move to grudging...but what do I know. Oh, wait. I know that I currently have a friend's SoB army in my closet and could try to talk him out of them to build a crazy alliance. Or...be happy with what I have and give them back.

Totalwar1402 wrote:They have essentially the same theme, credos and holy warrior abilities.

No, they don't.

The Black Templars are fanatical warriors dedicated the service of the Imperium, and adhere to the archaic creeds of the Great Crusade, abhoring psykers because they were forbidden ten thousand years ago. They have no mystical abilities.

The Sisters are fanatical warriors dedicated to the Ecclessiarchy and its deification of the Emperor, something the Black Templars very specifically deny. They have magical (albeit completely nonsensical) abilities derived from this worship of the non-God who gives magical powers apparently (Don't ask me, no it doesn't make any sense).

Yeah, so they have roots in religious conflicts of the past. So do a lot of things in 40K. /shrug

Why would they not be natural allies?

I already covered this.

Here's the thing. I'm not saying they couldn't be allies. There are dozens of reasons Templars and Sisters might find themselves in a temporary alliance. Hence why they share an ally slot on the table. What I was rejecting was the idea that they are a perfect match, and should be in the same codex list.

It's there difference of these two conversations:

"You hate witches? We hate witches too! There's a witch over there. We should kill her."

and

"You hate witches? We totally hate witches. We should totally hang out and kill witches all the time. But, you have to promise not to tell about our illegal army, illegal fleet, oh, and maybe put up with the fact that we totally think your religion is bullcrap, and really just assume that we're never going to full cooperate with you, and pursue our own agenda. Oh, and you can totally report back to the Ecclessiarchy and the Inquisition on all of our movements around the galaxy and the things we do."

I mean, we're on pages that are close though. I think the Sisters should have the Grudging or Unholy or whatever the lowest level is with all of the Space Marine codex books, not just the Templars. They aren't armies that mix. Space Marines might tolerate the Inquisition because typically there's some kind of tangible benefit to teaming up with Grey Knights, or a powerful Inquisitor. The Sisters offer nothing to the Space Marines that the Chapters don't already have something better organically, and fluff wise don't match up in ideology.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:They have essentially the same theme, credos and holy warrior abilities.

No, they don't.

The Black Templars are fanatical warriors dedicated the service of the Imperium, and adhere to the archaic creeds of the Great Crusade, abhoring psykers because they were forbidden ten thousand years ago. They have no mystical abilities.

The Sisters are fanatical warriors dedicated to the Ecclessiarchy and its deification of the Emperor, something the Black Templars very specifically deny. They have magical (albeit completely nonsensical) abilities derived from this worship of the non-God who gives magical powers apparently (Don't ask me, no it doesn't make any sense).

Yeah, so they have roots in religious conflicts of the past. So do a lot of things in 40K. /shrug

Why would they not be natural allies?

I already covered this.

Here's the thing. I'm not saying they couldn't be allies. There are dozens of reasons Templars and Sisters might find themselves in a temporary alliance. Hence why they share an ally slot on the table. What I was rejecting was the idea that they are a perfect match, and should be in the same codex list.

It's there difference of these two conversations:

"You hate witches? We hate witches too! There's a witch over there. We should kill her."

and

"You hate witches? We totally hate witches. We should totally hang out and kill witches all the time. But, you have to promise not to tell about our illegal army, illegal fleet, oh, and maybe put up with the fact that we totally think your religion is bullcrap, and really just assume that we're never going to full cooperate with you, and pursue our own agenda. Oh, and you can totally report back to the Ecclessiarchy and the Inquisition on all of our movements around the galaxy and the things we do."

I mean, we're on pages that are close though. I think the Sisters should have the Grudging or Unholy or whatever the lowest level is with all of the Space Marine codex books, not just the Templars. They aren't armies that mix. Space Marines might tolerate the Inquisition because typically there's some kind of tangible benefit to teaming up with Grey Knights, or a powerful Inquisitor. The Sisters offer nothing to the Space Marines that the Chapters don't already have something better organically, and fluff wise don't match up in ideology.

Great post (and the prior one too). I, at some level, knew all of this already, I just never out the pieces together. Excellent information, changed my view of the BT a little and the SoB a lot.

Makes a little bit more sense now... with the new matrix being released, but I really hope the FAQ makes BT xenos allies have to stay 12" away of be attacked (or the like).

Real allies table here

http://natfka.blogspot.co.nz/2012/06/pics-pages-from-rulebook-force-weapons.html

Templars are fine with all marines and guard, will ally with GK, tau and eldar if they have to, sisters, crons and DE in dire circumstances, Orks never, Chaos never

Grey Knights are Nigel No friends

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

The Black Templars are fanatical warriors dedicated the service of the Imperium, and adhere to the archaic creeds of the Great Crusade, abhoring psykers because they were forbidden ten thousand years ago. They have no mystical abilities.

The Sisters are fanatical warriors dedicated to the Ecclessiarchy and its deification of the Emperor, something the Black Templars very specifically deny. They have magical abilities derived from this worship of the non-God who gives magical powers apparently


Here's the thing. I'm not saying they couldn't be allies. There are dozens of reasons Templars and Sisters might find themselves in a temporary alliance. Hence why they share an ally slot on the table. What I was rejecting was the idea that they are a perfect match, and should be in the same codex list.

I mean, we're on pages that are close though. I think the Sisters should have the Grudging or Unholy or whatever the lowest level is with all of the Space Marine codex books, not just the Templars. They aren't armies that mix.

What do you think the Emperors Champion is? Hes a standard battle brother who recieves holy visions and takes up the sword a changed man. Or the vows? Those are supernatural abilities akin to BA blood rage or Space Wolves wolf abilities. The implication is that they have a religious source. Plus, I thought the Imp Fists were split on the basis of Templrs being the most "fanatical" hence all the religious crusader imagery and it would be a bit silly if BT weren't the religious marine chapter; which is what you are suggesting. I mean you even have a chaplian SC who is crushed defending an Imperial cathedral and has servitors carry the reliquaries of said cathedral around with him. You don't think that screams that they worship the Emperor as a God? Its what seperates them from vanilla marines.

But those are tiny and negligible differences that are purely academic. They are still part of the Imperium, humanity and serve the God Emperor. That inherently makes them closer than non-Imperial armies. This alliance system equates Templars n Sisters with Sisters n Necrons or Sisters n Tau. Which makes no sense. An Imperial faction is still an Imperial faction.

How are the BT keeping a fleet worse than the Wolves/BA who have mutants in their army? Why would they care? The Templars actions result in killing the enemies of the Imperium. You know that big human-centric Empire that they're all part of? Temporary Alliance? They are already allies by definition. All Imperial armies should be higher on that scale than any non-Imperial army.

Slightly off topic but why does it give the battleforce as a viable option for purchasing for your allied army when all I've seen so far is of 1HQ and 1Troops choice being available

Yea some of the allies seem off...at the same time I am not bothered by it. If I want to twist my army's personal fluff to allow for an uneasy alliance between the templar and some mercenary DE, or the BT and DE fighting on the same field of battle and deciding to kill each other only after the much larger tyranid army has been dealt with first than that is my right. Maybe after the game is finished my surviving models will fight each other to see who the true victor is.

Where I will get off is if DE and BT interact with each other (grimaldus joining a squad of incubi, archon leading terminators, etc)

FC Assault terminators out of a webway portal...

Totalwar1402 wrote:What do you think the Emperors Champion is? Hes a standard battle brother who recieves holy visions and takes up the sword a changed man.

A charlatan who lies to receive an elevated position? I mean, are we assuming all the people who fall to the floor speaking in tongues at Pentacostal churches are really speaking from God? Pfft.

You don't think that screams that they worship the Emperor as a God?

Black Templars fluff is rife with bad writing. I mean, we can use it as evidence or we can accept that in nearly fourteen years of BT fluff, there are bizarre contradictions that result from a lack of a cohesive editing vision, lol.

But those are tiny and negligible differences that are purely academic. They are still part of the Imperium, humanity and serve the God Emperor. That inherently makes them closer than non-Imperial armies. This alliance system equates Templars n Sisters with Sisters n Necrons or Sisters n Tau. Which makes no sense. An Imperial faction is still an Imperial faction.

You mistake the Imperium, and its agencies, as a cohesive entity. The Ecclessiarchy functions completely independently from the Imperium. While a basic, four tiered system doesn't adequately explain the nuances between reasons, Space Marines are still going to be extremely wary of allying with the Sisters. I mean, what do you want, a 5th tier to make you feel better? There's one tier that says "We're homeboys, next round is on me!". A tier that says "You cool, we can hang out if you're going to be at the same club". A tier that says "Well, since you're already here and I can't get security to kick you out, we'll have to hang out near eachother". And finally, a tier that says "Oh, you at this club? The only way we not fightin' is if some other foo starts bustin' caps at me first". There's no room in such a simplistic system for greater detail. What you want is a tier that says "We friends of friends, but I don't I know you be snitchin'." and has the same game effect as the third one.

The Templars actions result in killing the enemies of the Imperium. .

The Sisters are hardly the exemplars of tolerance when it comes to context versus content. The fact is, the Black Templars are breaking the rules. And like Walter Sobcheck, they're going to stand up, rack their pistol slide and scream "Am I the only one here who gives a gak about the rules?!"

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Guess somebody got smarter then since that codex was published,
.

1hadhq wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Guess somebody got smarter then since that codex was published,
.

Facepalm all you want. The new ally chart pretty much proves me right. /shrug

Don't worry, I've heard being wrong builds character. Probably why mine is always under so much scrutiny.

How will Imperial Armour lists that "upgrade" a codex, Ie, Carcharadons upgrade C:SM? Will they be able to.ally with any of the armies C:SM can?

Similarly, if an army can ally with Codex SM can it ally with Carcharadons.

Bookwrack wrote:Yeah... about that... you seem to have overlooked the part where the Soritas as a whole are pretty much dripping with warp power.

wat

Please report for Arco-Flagellation in Penitent Booth #97, block B.

All Sisters are genetically screened long before they even become novices. Anybody with the psyker gene would have been shipped off in the Schola already.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Actually, the Sisters and Black Templars are very, very unlikely allies. Just because they both have a religious theme to them doesn't change the fact that they'd be fiercely competitive and mistrustful of eachother in reality

"Actually" you are only making this up. Your "fact" is a personal opinion not reflected in any of the studio material, where actually all we ever read about is them fighting side by side with no problem whatsoever. What exactly is your motif for these claims?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:These are the same Sisters who showed up to the homeworld of the Space Wolves demanding entrance, and have (despite how flimsily rationalized in the fluff it was) attacked and decapitated Space Marine Chapters in the past.

The funny thing is that according to this chart they get along better with the Space Wolves, so maybe we should just realize that the table is largely random and not reflective of the fluff at all.
And just because you didn't like it doesn't make the Sisters' purges "flimsily rationalized". Marines are not meant to be immune from Imperial retribution, deal with it.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:For sure, even the Codex Chapters wouldn't want them around most of the time.

Well, that's your opinion, but it's not what the fluff in GW's books says.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Black Templars are fanatical warriors dedicated the service of the Imperium, and adhere to the archaic creeds of the Great Crusade, abhoring psykers because they were forbidden ten thousand years ago. They have no mystical abilities.
The Sisters are fanatical warriors dedicated to the Ecclessiarchy and its deification of the Emperor, something the Black Templars very specifically deny. They have magical (albeit completely nonsensical) abilities derived from this worship of the non-God who gives magical powers apparently (Don't ask me, no it doesn't make any sense).

They do make sense if you'd simply read the Sisters' background and analyze the actual portrayal of their powers instead of hating on them. Stop claiming they are shooting lightning out of their eyes.
The Sororitas' abilities are as much "magic" as the Black Templars' Vows, or all Marines' Feel No Pain in general.

OnTopic - personally, I think this would be a much more fluffy allies table:



Note that the above chart makes some combinations impossible that would otherwise be cool ideas, such as Traitor Guard + Daemons. However, I am of the opinion that a list supporting such concepts would have to be open to any combination, as I do believe that it is actually possible to find an excuse for why any of the armies on the chart would work together with the other. Such occurrences, however, would be rare exceptions, even if they are occasionally supported in the fluff. This chart only attempts to display a more or less accurate "standard" for battlefield relationships, meaning alliances that refer to the actual core concept of an army (example: only Imperial Guard, no Blood Pact or Gue'vesa) and are comparatively easy to explain.

Personally, I support the idea of simply allowing everyone to ally with anyone and letting the players come up with a good explanation. Be it for Exodite Eldar allying with their DE brethren, an Inquisitor and his Grey Knights working together with Ork mercenaries, a Genestealer Cult helping out the Hive, or a bunch of Tyranids implanted with devices that allow a Necron Lord or Tau Commander to remotely control them.
But that doesn't need a chart.

I also tried to incorporate a few of the Marine Feuds, but as I'm no expert on Astartes fluff I may well have forgotten something. And I'm rather torn on a few of the combinations; I admit that some cases where I had to decide between "cannot ally" and "alliance of convenience" were decided purely by gut feeling. Is it true that the Tau are now protected by the UM? In that case this would have to be reflected in the chart, ofc.

Tau only able to ally with one other faction? I don't...what? I mean hell, by your line of thinking they should at least be Alliances of Convenience with the same people the Eldar are allied with, because if the Imperium is going to ally with an ancient race far more advanced than them , then they'll certainly be willing to ally with a Xenos race they don't even consider a threat. In a pinch, at least.

Dark Eldar wouldn't work with Chaos, they're not Chaos Eldar they're rape pillage sex drugs rock n roll Eldar.

Necrons in the current lore are similar to Eldar, in that they'll occasionally help out the Imperium, Orks, or whoever if it furthers their goals.

XV8 Crisis Suit wrote:Tau only able to ally with one other faction? I don't...what? I mean hell, by your line of thinking they should at least be Alliances of Convenience with the same people the Eldar are allied with, because if the Imperium is going to ally with an ancient race far more advanced than them, then they'll certainly be willing to ally with a Xenos race they don't even consider a threat. In a pinch, at least.
Dark Eldar wouldn't work with Chaos, they're not Chaos Eldar they're rape pillage sex drugs rock n roll Eldar.
Necrons in the current lore are similar to Eldar, in that they'll occasionally help out the Imperium, Orks, or whoever if it furthers their goals.

Yeah, the Tau are where I was most undecided. The Imperial alliances with the Eldar would happen, well, just because it's the Eldar - they look sorta human and are excellent at both being manipulative as well as diplomatic when the situation calls for it. The Tau are "just" diplomatic. I could see alliances, but not as often as it'd happen with the Eldar, and I wanted to keep rare exceptions out of the chart. I acknowledge the criticism, though.
Wasn't there a faction of Dark Eldar actually working together with Chaos? I know their race as a whole shuns it (and in fact their fear of Slaanesh being the reason for why they hunt what amounts to "distraction sacrifices"), but I thought I read about that once ... might just have been some crazy BL stuff though.
About the Necrons: helping out, or actually being diplomatic? The chart wasn't intended to address cases where one part of the army is unaware of the other helping it, but active cooperation. I honestly don't know the full extent of the Necrons' options now, I'm only aware that their leaders have more personality now.

As I said, you can explain almost anything with a good idea, hence the best solution would be no chart at all and making it depend on the players explaining it to each other (if they actually bother), then agreeing to it. For tournaments, combinations would have to be approved by the organizers.

Orks have reportedly been hired as mercenaries by the Imperial Guard, Inquisitors, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines and Necrons (in exchange for weapons or scrap), both Eldar and Daemons have tricked them into fighting alongside them. While I can perfectly see why some of the more radical chapters wouldn't ally with Xenos, most of the factions across the Universe have fought alongside orks at some point in time.

DeathReaper wrote:For a BT/DE army, it better to think of them not as allies, but as two forces forced to ignore each other to kill the bigger threat on the battlefield...

The same could happen when BT/Tau, or BT/Eldar are on the same battlefield, but are forced to attack the Ork horde coming their way for either of them to have any chance of escape.

Black Templars wouldn't think like that though, they'd just kill everyone until either they'd won or they were dead. I remember reading somewhere where a Black Templar ship was pursuing an Eldar one, then they both came under attack by a much larger Dark Eldar force. Rather than work with the Eldar, they simply got to killing both Eldar and Dark Eldar.