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Ok, so BT can ally with

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=&pIndex=1&aId=22400024a&start=2&multiPageMode=true

BA (maybe pushing it... a little mutanty, but I can let this one slide)
DA (actually fairly similar Chapters in battlefield operations, sure)
IG (yes, of course)
SM (dito)
SW (again, like BA, pushing it, but whatever)
Eldar (so, Xenos, who have a daemon in their basement, and use witchcraft as a matter of course?!! NO WAY!)
GK (should hate them as witches, but too preachy to pass, I get this one, ok)
Tau (really?! How do the Tau live past the first contact protocols with the BT?! again, No. Way.)
DE (What is the point of allies?! I will not play some one running DE and BT. Too stupid, too wrong, just can't happen)
Crons (I can see the BT rushing in behind a Cron assault and letting the Xenos die first, this one only works if the BT have to roll like a Chaos dread to not attack the crons).
SoB (perfect fit, should just fold into the BT dex).

The only way some of these work, is if there are rules that if you use certain factions together that their has to be a leadership check for each unit each turn for them not to turn on each other (BT/DE I'm looking at you). This ally matrix better have 3 levels to it

A) Love each other, no issues
B) will work together, but strong limitations are in place
C) roll to keep them from killing each other

Am I overreacting, or maybe GW just forgot their own BT fluff and the website is wrong?

Well all the marines and Imperial things are fine.

BT actually don't mind GK being psykers. If you look at their Vow "Abhor the Witch destroy the witch" it states that they may not ally with an army including psykers, except GK.

I hope there's a rule in the Black Templar codex saying they may not be allied with another force so long as it contains a psyker, with the exception of Grey Knights. Better than handicapping yourself for fluff's sake with Abhor the Witch!

I don't think Abhor the Witch.always apllies. You can take Abhor the witch, and gain the 5+ nullifying effect, but trade in Psyker (non-GK allies) agents. Or you can just not take Abhor the Witch and carry on as normal.

I am just having my templars purge alongside my own sm chapter using the SW codex. They are rather similar in spirit and determination so it fits for me and plus there are no psykers.

Edit: They will probably mention this no psyker ally rule in a FAQ update or something.

Deadshot wrote:BT actually don't mind GK being psykers. If you look at their Vow "Abhor the Witch destroy the witch" it states that they may not ally with an army including psykers, except GK.

You're confusing the special rule 'Abhor the Witch' with the vow 'Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch'.


The latter is an optional vow. The former is an army special rule that always applies, and prevents BT armies from including allies with psychic powers (not just Psykers, which was an important distinction that allowed them to still field Inquisitors from Codex DH and WH).

So unless that rule is erratad, you will be able to allow with Eldar, but won't be able to include Farseers.

Lobukia wrote:
SoB (perfect fit, should just fold into the BT dex).

AMEN BROTHER!

Totally OT but I do believe a 'codex witch hunters' involving SoB, Burny things and black templars would be absolutely amazing!

Also as I keep saying everywhere I do wonder if the ally rules are for multi-player games or 'with opponent consent' type things

yeah unless earratered BT wont be able to include any psyker allies (including GK, as codex DH does not exist anymore) but i cant see anyone minding much, the allies rules are simply stupid

DA can ally with the following

Eldar: Hell no, DA wont even ally with abhumans and in the fluff hate aliens more than any other chapter (hence they have a huge presence in the deathwatch)
Orks: same as above
Deamons: ... really?..... Really?
chaos: this could be a fallen army to be fair

It seems they took the obvious allies and then went "oh my, looks like most factions don't have friends, let's let the dice decide who they can ally with" (they did this with DE and GK more than anyone else)

I mean, Eldar and Orks? Really? Yes, as tools by proxy, but everyone are tools to the Eldar (except Chaos whom are the target).

For a BT/DE army, it better to think of them not as allies, but as two forces forced to ignore each other to kill the bigger threat on the battlefield...

The same could happen when BT/Tau, or BT/Eldar are on the same battlefield, but are forced to attack the Ork horde coming their way for either of them to have any chance of escape.

Formosa wrote:yeah unless earratered BT wont be able to include any psyker allies (including GK, as codex DH does not exist anymore)

The BT codex doesn't reference Codex: DH. The exception to the 'no psychic powered allies' rule is for Grey Knight Space Marines. Grey Knights are Grey Knights, regardless of which codex they come from.

DeathReaper wrote:For a BT/DE army, it better to think of them not as allies, but as two forces forced to ignore each other to kill the bigger threat on the battlefield...

The same could happen when BT/Tau, or BT/Eldar are on the same battlefield, but are forced to attack the Ork horde coming their way for either of them to have any chance of escape.

Templars see neither force as a threat and would attack both without thought.

EDIT: Hold the phone!!!!! Just clicked on the BT ally page on GW site and I hope this is still WIP because I just saw Dark Eldar... in fact seeing any xenos on their ally list makes my stomach churn. Oh a lot of people are getting crusaded for this and any true Templar using even one xenos in their army shall be purged for heresy.

Lobukia wrote:
SoB (perfect fit, should just fold into the BT dex).

Yeah... about that... you seem to have overlooked the part where the Soritas as a whole are pretty much dripping with warp power.

Well, I'm mostly annoyed by SM allying with anything non-imperial that it has no background with, but hopefully the limit of 1 HQ and 1 troop is all you get-I'd enjoy running a GK libby and a GK squad with my BT, or maybe running some DA with them, or even get a unit of DC from the BA book to make a suicide charge against the enemy. My Daemons and Chaos Marines would enjoy teaming up (I started after the split) and my new Mantic guard models would enjoy helping out my Space Marines. That said, SM of any flavor should never ally with Orks, Chaos or Dark Eldar, but I can see them grudgingly working with Eldar and Tau as an uneasy alliance with negative ramifications. 'Crons...well, I suppose they should have a grudging alliance with BA (since there is now [awful] fluff to support) but definitely no alliance with Eldar or BT. Helbrecht called-he wants his arm back.

timetowaste85 wrote: That said, SM of any flavor should never ally with Orks, Chaos or Dark Eldar, but I can see them grudgingly working with Eldar and Tau as an uneasy alliance with negative ramifications.

For Space Marines, there would be no appreciable difference between the different Eldar factions.

Orks will fight in the same direction as anyone if the mood hits them, and it's not too hard to imagine that a clever Marine commander might use that to his advantage to clear out a troublesome enemy, intending to clean the Orks out later.

And Chaos is the easiest of all... You just assume that the Loyalist part of the army is newly turned. Or is being deceived... Some enterprising Sorcerer casts an illusion that causes the Loyalist Marines to see their Black Legion 'brethren' as Iron Hands...

unmercifulconker wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:For a BT/DE army, it better to think of them not as allies, but as two forces forced to ignore each other to kill the bigger threat on the battlefield...

The same could happen when BT/Tau, or BT/Eldar are on the same battlefield, but are forced to attack the Ork horde coming their way for either of them to have any chance of escape.

Templars see neither force as a threat and would attack both without thought.

And they would naturally kill what is coming at them trying to kill them before some other small force killing the same enemy. Though they would try to kill that other small force they would only do so after everything that is trying to kill them is dead.

Remember the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

unmercifulconker wrote:EDIT: Hold the phone!!!!! Just clicked on the BT ally page on GW site and I hope this is still WIP because I just saw Dark Eldar... in fact seeing any xenos on their ally list makes my stomach churn. Oh a lot of people are getting crusaded for this and any true Templar using even one xenos in their army shall be purged for heresy.

It is not a WIP. It is what it is going to be. Nothing wrong with it.

After all you see two loyalist armies fighting it out on the tabletop all the time.

This does not really go with the fluff either...Training exercises maybe?

Well looking at the pages visible in previews, videos, and such, it looks like there is at least 2 levels to the ally matrix (a friendly level and an allies of convenience level. For the second, at least, there appears to be no power crossovers and a real chance of hurting each. I'm hoping that there is an allies of necessity level that makes it tough to put the two forces near each other.

Maybe tgere will be an allies matrix and associated ruling based on points limits

For example, 2 friendly armies, ie, SOB and BT could ally at any point value.
2 armies that can ally in circumstance (a la BA+ Crons Vs Nids)
would be 2000pts+ to represent a large scale engagment that forces cooperation

And something like GK+Daemons would be at 3000+, Apocalypse where anything can ally with anything,

BT and DA wold be a good match up, 2 forces of totally insane zealous marines kicking ass

Formosa, I think your sudden 'Fallen' thought at the end of the post above when noting which DA allies seemed way off, is quite possible.

Although some have rubbished it, more than one rumour monger (If I'm remembering correctly) has suggested Cypher may be in the DA book.

Before the allies rules, this made no sense and obviously folks instantly went against the idea. Now I'm thinking its quite possible he might be in there.

Space Marines are the gateway army. It's what most of the younger kids play, so they skate along on the 'Rule of Cool' - if 12 year olds want to team their Marines with those really cool Dark Eldar, GW will let them. It's probably also why Space Marines have access to the most new Psychic disciplines, and I suspect it's why the newest armies (GK, DE, Necrons) have access to so many allies when they really should be among the armies that have access to the fewest. Pandering to the big money spenders among their players.

Formosa wrote:

DA can ally with the following

Eldar: Hell no, DA wont even ally with abhumans and in the fluff hate aliens more than any other chapter (hence they have a huge presence in the deathwatch)
Orks: same as above

Well we don't want to ally with you either! But we'll gladly manipulate your fate strands and loot your stuff

Eldar - farseer basically duped the DA into fighting and dying for the craftworld, space marine meat shields too the fore! Protect our guardians with your power armored lives!

Ork - In blind pursuit of a fallen, a DA task force runs afoul of an Ork Waaaugh. The Ork gleefully ambush and kill the marines, making of with an impressive amount of battlefield salvage. Looted Deathwing, yay!

Tbh, that one of the things I'm looking forward to. Ork armies with other races allies, but making it out as if its all looted.

Going to be some crazy awesome conversions out there.

rabidaskal wrote:

Formosa wrote:

DA can ally with the following

Eldar: Hell no, DA wont even ally with abhumans and in the fluff hate aliens more than any other chapter (hence they have a huge presence in the deathwatch)
Orks: same as above

Well we don't want to ally with you either! But we'll gladly manipulate your fate strands and loot your stuff

Eldar - farseer basically duped the DA into fighting and dying for the craftworld, space marine meat shields too the fore! Protect our guardians with your power armored lives!

Ork - In blind pursuit of a fallen, a DA task force runs afoul of an Ork Waaaugh. The Ork gleefully ambush and kill the marines, making of with an impressive amount of battlefield salvage. Looted Deathwing, yay!

lol fair enough

Eldar - Good luck duping a chapter that makes a living of breaking down mental barriers

Orks - no problem with being attacked by orks... just not allying with them.

the obvious thing is...well obviously i dont HAVE to take such allies in my games, its just my love for the game will die a little every time i see BT or DA allying with any kind of Xenos, i know its a fluff thing but that is what keeps me in this game, and fluff wise im not sure people realise just how insane and hate fuelled both these chapters are... even space wolves are more forgiving than DA or BT

Well, DE can ally with daemons...

So you can make a DE/Slaaneshi army, now wouldn't that be weird?

EDIT: Matt Ward must be happy, since BA can ally with 'crons...

I agree these allies just seem so badly thought out. For DE you can have
Eldar (Fair enough there was a story where they worked together and i would imagine it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to work against a common enemy)
Black templars (what? Seriously what?)
Chaos daemons (so apparently the eldar souls lost their taste)
Chaos space marines (Why would they work together? Dark eldar hate chaos and it's servants.
Imperial guard (I guess we could say they are slaves or something, and i am hoping to include a "slave" unit of guardsmen.
Orks (Maybe they were manipulated i guess, could work but i don't particuarly like it)
Sisters of battle (Really, would the most zealous fighters in the imperium team up with the most alien of xenos)
Space marines (Seriously, i just can't understand this one)
Space wolfs (^^)
Tau (There was a story in the DE codex where they worked together although the tau soon found out the DE couldn't be trusted. Might be nice to have a unit of fire warriors modelled to look similair to wracks which could work with the story)


Just seems a bit slap dash to me.

Tau and chaos daemons? The next thing you know we will have eldar and necrons.

It seems to me that the DE and probably the Orks too are supposed to fulfill the role of your generic mercenary. Both are very ruthless and opportunistic to achieve their goals and are probably the biggest corsair factions atm so it's not toooo unrealistic to make out a reason for them to fight along this specific force.

Except BT & SoB...

Why are people so upset anyway? It's called an alliance of convenience, not a BFF Alliance. They'd probably turn on eachother once the battle on the tabletop is over if they didn't like eachother to start with.

I have more of a problem with Orks...

If you think it's unfluffy, don't play it.
The current rules allow a hardline Inquisitor to have a retinue made up of captured demon princes, no one complains.
Fluff is what you make it.