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 Manchu wrote:


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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
@ Manchu: You're not even making counter points. You just responding to the lead ins to my points

I''m sorry KC, but you've worn out my patience. I can only suggest you read more carefully because you are arguing against points that I didn't make and my blood pressure simply cannot withstand having to clearly show how you are not being clear while also clarifying my points in relation to your wayward objections.

That's fine Manchu. I make a simple 2 sentence response and you only quote the first one and then talk around me with very nebulous counter points. It's all up there for anyone to read obviosly, so I'm quite find with how the debate went. I agree that your "blood pressure" seems high lately.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I agree that your "blood pressure" seems high lately.

Honestly, you make very little effort and then complain when I am not willing to do more than you. I have tried to be patient but you aren't even bothering to address what I actually post. For example, you posted this:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The fact the Ecclesiarch could destroy the Ur-Council and reunite the Imperium is proof of their power not the lack of it.

In response to this:

 Manchu wrote:
That is why I carefully pointed out that it was the Ecclesiarchy rather than any part of Adeptus Terra (not the Astartes, not the Guard, not the Imperial Navy) that destroyed the Ur-Council and reunified the Imperium.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I agree that your "blood pressure" seems high lately.

Honestly, you make very little effort and then complain when I am not willing to do more than you. I have tried to be patient but you aren't even bothering to address what I actually post. For example, you posted this:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The fact the Ecclesiarch could destroy the Ur-Council and reunite the Imperium is proof of their power not the lack of it.

In response to this:

 Manchu wrote:
That is why I carefully pointed out that it was the Ecclesiarchy rather than any part of Adeptus Terra (not the Astartes, not the Guard, not the Imperial Navy) that destroyed the Ur-Council and reunified the Imperium.

Yes. Is that not a good counter point? You are saying the fact that the Ecclesiarchy is able to destroy a splinter empire through a massive War of Faith shows they are weak somehow. I think it proves the opposite. I completely stand by that.

Manchu wrote:@Lynata: First, I said that the Ecclesiarchy is hierarchically inferior to Adeptus Terra, not the Adeptus Mechanicus.

You said "both adepti".

(on a minor sidenote, the plural of adeptus is adepta - like in Adepta Sororitas)

Manchu wrote:Second, I do not mean that the Ministorum is managed by the Administratum or some such; merely that the Terran Empire belongs to the Emperor and his government is the Priesthood of Terra -- not the Ecclesiarch.

Yes, but the Ecclesiarchy is not subject to the civilian government. That's the grimdark beauty about the Imperium in 40k. The civilian government is in semi-open competition with the Church (and the AdMech), which is specifically what led to Vandire (as leader of the Administratum, I suppose you could equate him to a sort of "prime minister") ursurping the post of Ecclesiarch in the first place.

Manchu wrote:There is also the Martain Empire, which is co-equal with the Terran Empire. There is no co-equal Ecclesiarchical empire.

Look at the chart. The Adeptus Mechanicus, the Adeptus Ministorum, and the Adeptus Terra are all equal-level organisations that manage the day-to-day affairs in the Imperium, and all are subject to the High Lords, who are again (in theory) subject to the Emperor. There is no "Martian Empire" - I've seen this proclaimed a lot by Admech fans, but at the end of the day the top dogs remain the High Lords of the Imperial Senate, and the network of Forge Worlds is a part of the Imperium just like the Shrine Worlds are. Sovereign from the Adeptus Terra's control, but still part of the wider Imperium of Man.

Manchu wrote:To extend the metaphor, who owns the ground on which the churches in the UK are built?

What metaphor? I'm sure the High Lords could rescind Ministorum custodianship of a Shrine World. They could do the same with a Mechanicus Forge World. Or a Space Marine fiefdom. In the end, any and all worlds within the Imperium belong to the God-Emperor, and the High Lords are his representatives.

I know of no case where the High Lords actually did take a planet away from one of the aforementioned groups, but since they do award these rights (again in place of the Emperor), I see it as logical that they could just as well retract them again. On another note, I recall the Inquisition - which holds the same level as the High Lords on the chart - throwing Space Marine Chapters off their homeworlds, though. I believe it was the Relictors Chapter that had been banned from ever recruiting on that world again. Or was it the Mortificators? I dimly remember it had to do with daemon relics ... if you want, I'll look it up again, but I guess it doesn't have that much to do with the topic at hand.

Manchu wrote:That is not the Moirae Schism.

That's not what Lexicanum says.
Yeah, I know, Lexicanum ... I'm preaching not to rely on it so often, it feels ironic that I use it as a source now - but I'm still in the office and don't have the 6E book here. Will check up on it if I get back home again.
Or can anyone quote the passage about what the Schism exactly was?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes. Is that not a good counter point? You are saying the fact that the Ecclesiarchy is able to destroy a splinter empire through a massive War of Faith shows they are weak somehow. I think it proves the opposite. I completely stand by that.

Thanks for proving my point! I was NOT trying to prove how the Ecclesiarchy reuiniting the Imperium when Adeptus Terra couldn't do it shows how the Ecclesiarchy is weak. How could you possibly get that out of my point, which I had already made and was even in that post re-calrifying, even using the words "this is why I carefully noted" to show how important it is to my argument? The point is that the Ecclesiarchy was weak before and during the Nova Terra Interregnum, the time frame in which the Adpetus Mechanicus was stamping out the Moirae Schism, and that the Ecclesiarchy only returned to power at the end of M35 when it destroyed the Ur Council. Then the Ecclesiarchy continued to gain power, leading to the Age of Apostasy.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes. Is that not a good counter point? You are saying the fact that the Ecclesiarchy is able to destroy a splinter empire through a massive War of Faith shows they are weak somehow. I think it proves the opposite. I completely stand by that.

Thanks for proving my point! I was NOT trying to prove how the Ecclesiarchy reuiniting the Imperium when Adeptus Terra couldn't do it shows how the Ecclesiarchy is weak. How could you possibly get that out of my point, which I had already made and was even in that post re-calrifying, even using the words "this is why I carefully noted" to show how important it is to my argument? The point is that the Ecclesiarchy was weak before and during the Nova Terra Interregnum, the time frame in which the Adpetus Mechanicus was stamping out the Moirae Schism, and that the Ecclesiarchy only returned to power at the end of M35 when it destroyed the Ur Council. Then the Ecclesiarchy continued to gain power, leading to the Age of Apostasy.

Yes, and my point is the Church has never been weak. Their single handed destruction of the Ur-Council proves it. That's why I made the point of how their power has only been curtailed once and it was in the wake of the second biggest civil war The Impeirum has had. That's what it took. I also mentioned the mind boggling amount of clout it must have had to even be declared the state religon. I think the burden of proof is on you to prove the church's weakness.

Personally, I would reserve judgment on when exactly the Ecclesiarchy returned to full power. As per the Codex material, the Ministorum got weaker until early M35. Mid M35, it stabilised. We know it was pretty strong at the end of M35, but we do not know when exactly this strength was regained. It could already have happened Mid M35, and without further information I don't think anybody could say for sure. Certainly, Greigor's election and reforms, which already occurred in M35 for sure, could have given the AdMech cause for alarm, regardless of how much power the Ecclesiarchy actually had at that point. The trend is important.

Not to mention that the Ur-Council stuff could have other reasons for the delay in reaction. With an entire galaxy to control, "cleaning house" takes time. If you were the Fabricator General, would you actually wait until the Ecclesiarchy is done with the military build-up, or would you start worrying as soon as you notice that they're raising more and more Frateris Templar every year? See: real-life Cold War.

 Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Manchu wrote:To extend the metaphor, who owns the ground on which the churches in the UK are built?

What metaphor? I'm sure the High Lords could rescind Ministorum custodianship of a Shrine World. They could do the same with a Mechanicus Forge World. Or a Space Marine fiefdom. In the end, any and all worlds within the Imperium belong to the God-Emperor, and the High Lords are his representatives.

I know of no case where the High Lords actually did take a planet away from one of the aforementioned groups, but since they do award these rights (again in place of the Emperor), I see it as logical that they could just as well retract them again. On another note, I recall the Inquisition - which holds the same level as the High Lords on the chart - throwing Space Marine Chapters off their homeworlds, though. I believe it was the Relictors Chapter that had been banned from ever recruiting on that world again. Or was it the Mortificators? I dimly remember it had to do with daemon relics ... if you want, I'll look it up again, but I guess it doesn't have that much to do with the topic at hand.

Even in that metaphor through a significant period in European History The Pope was the most powerful man in Europe. Even Kings answered to him. The Ecclesiarch is the Space Pope and The Imperium is structurally closer to medieval Europe than modern day.

Ahh - I see what he meant now, even though it's not at all what I was talking about.

 Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Lynata: First, I said that the Ecclesiarchy is hierarchically inferior to Adeptus Terra, not the Adeptus Mechanicus.

You said "both adepti".

 Manchu wrote:
The Priesthoods of Terra and Mars are sovereign institutions in a mutualistic relationship. The Ecclesiarchy is hierarchically subordinate to the two Adepti, specifically to Adeptus Terra. Mars has its own holdings throughout the galaxy where, to the extent that there is any worshiping of the Emperor going on at all, it is worship of him as the Omnissiah.

Context provides clarity, no? Mars and Terra are empires not churches. The Ecclesiarchy represents the state religion of the Terran Empire. Its prominence and position flow from the state and particularly the sovereign of that state, whom it confesses is a God.

 Lynata wrote:
the Ecclesiarchy is not subject to the civilian government

It certainly is, in the sense that the Emperor himself is the leader of the civilian government. This is different from saying that the Administratum controls the Ecclesiarchy, which is wrong and which I never even implied. Moreover, the Fabricator-General is NOT the subordinate of the Emperor. He is the sovereign of an independent empire bound to the Terran empire.

 Lynata wrote:
Look at the chart. The Adeptus Mechanicus, the Adeptus Ministorum, and the Adeptus Terra are all equal-level organisations

All the chart says is that the Ecclesiarchy is not managed by Adeptus Terra or the Adeptus Mechanicus. What I am talking about is that one is an Empire and the other is the official church of that Empire. The Empire is therefore a higher level institution.

 Lynata wrote:
There is no "Martian Empire"

100% incorrect. The Imperium of Man is the union of Mars and Terra. These two, independent empires pre-existed the rise of the Emperor. His great achievement was to forge them together.

 Lynata wrote:
I'm sure the High Lords could rescind Ministorum custodianship of a Shrine World. They could do the same with a Mechanicus Forge World.

That proves nothing. The Fabricator-General is one of the High Lords. You're just saying "the Imperium governs the Imperium." Adeptus Terra has no right to tithe a Forge World because that world was never part of the Terran Empire. By contrast, Shrine Worlds are part of the Terran Empire -- the Administratum exempts them.

 Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:That is not the Moirae Schism. The schism resulted from a prophecy foretelling of the fall of Mars and the merging of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Mechanicus.

That's not what Lexicanum says.

Sure it is:

Lexicanum wrote:These radical teachings included references to the future overthrow of Mars and the fusion of the Adeptus Mechanicus and Ecclesiarchy.

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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Even in that metaphor through a significant period in European History The Pope was the most powerful man in Europe. Even Kings answered to him. The Ecclesiarch is the Space Pope and The Imperium is structurally closer to medieval Europe than modern day.

I can actually clear that up for you. The pope was not in charge of everything going on in Europe. In fact, the pope and his curia had a very well defined jurisdiction. And in many cases, when popes tried to go further, they would end up fighting with kings. And popes did not always, or even mostly, win.


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 Lynata wrote:
Personally, I would reserve judgment on when exactly the Ecclesiarchy returned to full power. As per the Codex material, the Ministorum got weaker until early M35. Mid M35, it stabilised. We know it was pretty strong at the end of M35, but we do not know when exactly this strength was regained.

Sure we do -- or at least we have a damn good idea. The Ecclesiarchy recovered exactly because of the opportunity posed by the Nova Terra Interregnum. We know when the Ecclesiarchy was feeling ultra-powerful -- the year the Eccleiarch commenced his War of Faith on the Ur-Council.


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 Lynata wrote:
If you were the Fabricator General, would you actually wait until the Ecclesiarchy is done with the military build-up, or would you start worrying as soon as you notice that they're raising more and more Frateris Templar every year? See: real-life Cold War.

A better example is WWII: "Yeah, I don't like the Commies either but we've got to stop these Fascists." Result: Cold War. Same thing here. The Fabricator-General needed the Ecclesiarchy to be strong so it could reunite the Terran empire. But that strength would then obviously pose a threat to the Mars later on, which exactly what happened.

 Manchu wrote:


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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Even in that metaphor through a significant period in European History The Pope was the most powerful man in Europe. Even Kings answered to him. The Ecclesiarch is the Space Pope and The Imperium is structurally closer to medieval Europe than modern day.

I can actually clear that up for you. The pope was not in charge of everything going on in Europe. In fact, the pope and his curia had a very well defined jurisdiction. And in many cases, when popes tried to go further, they would end up fighting with kings. And popes did not always, or even mostly, win.

Which is also true of The Space Pope. So it is a good metaphor in that way but the real life flow chart of Medieval Europe really was God -> Pope -> King. Real Pope was still higher ranked than the Space Pope so it's not a good metaphor to show how Space Pope is weak.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, and my point is the Church has never been weak.

Your point is wrong. Please read again the timeline I provided and the source Lynata provided backing it up. Of course I'm not saying that the Ecclesiarchy was "weak" as if it was weaker than a newborn kitten or something -- I am obviously saying it was weak in comparison to the AdMech which would not have felt presently threatened by it.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on you to prove the church's weakness.

Done!


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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
the real life flow chart of Medieval Europe really was God -> Pope -> King

No it wasn't. If that was true, there would have been no Reformation. In fact, the princes exercised temporal authority over the local religious institutions and the bishops exercised spiritual authority -- remember that it was Constantine rather than the pope who called and presided over the Nicene Council. Of course, princes are princes whether you call them kings or cardinals. The ecclesiastical centralization of papal authority happened largely after the Reformation and has a lot to do with the slow dissolution of the churches' temporal power.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, and my point is the Church has never been weak.

Your point is wrong. Please read again the timeline I provided and the source Lynata provided backing it up. Of course I'm not saying that the Ecclesiarchy was "weak" as if it was weaker than a newborn kitten or something -- I am obviously saying it was weak in comparison to the AdMech which would not have felt presently threatened by it.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on you to prove the church's weakness.

Done!

You could make the arguement that the AdMecha is stronger than everything and always has been. However, the rise of the Church's power was unprecedentedly rapid and worrying for everyone else in the Imperium. This Moirie thing threatened to pull the AdMech's dogmatic feet right out from under them. In the case of unification obviously The Ecclesiarch would reign supreme (even in the Church's slightly waned state of M34). It is simple unfathomable that all the normal humans and churches through the realm would recognize The Fabricator-General as their spiritual leader. It was a giant threat to the AdMech not the other way around and that's why they moved to crush it immediately.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
In the case of unification obviously The Ecclesiarch would reign supreme (even in the Church's slightly waned state of M34).

You have not a shred of evidence to back that up so let us turn to your argument:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
It is simple unfathomable that all the normal humans and churches through the realm would recognize The Fabricator-General as their spiritual leader.

You're talking as if "normal humans" would matter to the Fabricator-General. Lynata already answered my rhetorical question about the Moirae prophecy perfectly. Who would overthrow Mars? -- the Moirae schismatics and NOT the Ecclesiarch. It would be the Moirae schismatics who polluted Martian orthodoxy with some weird Ecclesiarchical notions, at least in the perception of the Fabricator-General. The Moirae Schism was a threat to the AdMech not because the Fabricator-General believed that the Moirae prophecy of merging with the Ecclesiarchy might be true and he had to prevent it. Rather, he saw it as a threat because if he allowed the schismatics to act of their belief, polluting orthodoxy, it would tear the Martian Empire apart in civil war -- just like what was going on with the Ur-Council and the Terran Empire.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
In the case of unification obviously The Ecclesiarch would reign supreme (even in the Church's slightly waned state of M34).

You have not a shred of evidence to back that up so let us turn to your argument:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
It is simple unfathomable that all the normal humans and churches through the realm would recognize The Fabricator-General as their spiritual leader.

You're talking as if "normal humans" would matter to the Fabricator-General. Lynata already answered my rhetorical question about the Moirae prophecy perfectly. Who would overthrow Mars? -- the Moirae schismatics and NOT the Ecclesiarch. It would be the Moirae schismatics who polluted Martian orthodoxy with some weird Ecclesiarchical notions, at least in the perception of the Fabricator-General. The Moirae Schism was a threat to the AdMech not because the Fabricator-General believed that the Moirae prophecy of merging with the Ecclesiarchy might be true and he had to prevent it. Rather, he saw it as a threat because if he allowed the schismatics to act of their belief, polluting orthodoxy, it would tear the Martian Empire apart in civil war -- just like what was going on with the Ur-Council and the Terran Empire.

Then you need proof of the opposite. The scenario of The Mechanium enveloping The Church.

You're putting the cart before the horse. Why would there even be a civil war? Why doesn't the Fabricator-General just say "ok". Why is it worth going into a shooting war over?
Fear of a future scenario caused the Civil War not Civil War was the Fear.

If the communications from the Emperor were discovered by Mechanicus Adepts on Moirae, and it was a Mechanicus based process why would the Ecclesiarchy be in charge?

For all we know the Fabricator General may have looked into the Moirae Astronomican reading techniques and genuinely found them to be mistaken. The idea itself was dangerous enough to warrant his personal presence. We just don't know his motivations.

The Fabricator-General does not want to be the Ecclesiarch.

And the Ecclesiarch does not want to be the Fabricator-General.

The Fabricator-General is afraid that some weirdos who believe the Moirae prophecies will corrupt the Machine Cult.

The Machine Cult is the basis for Martian sovereignty. Religious heresy is the equivalent of political succession in this case.

The Fabricator-General had already seen the Ur-Council secede from the Terran Empire. He thought the Moirae schismatics would secede from the Martian Empire.

So before they could gather strength, he launched a ruthless purge. He could do this because the AdMech was not weak, as the Adeptus Terra and Ecclesiarchy were.

Because the Adetus Terra and Ecclesiarchy were weak, the Nova Terra Interregnum not only succeeded by lasted 900 years.

The bifurcation of the Terran Empire made the Fabricator-General nervous because it could lead to a bifurcation of the Martian Empire. In fact, this is exactly how he perceived the Moirae Schism.

So he would have favored some Terran institution becoming strong enough to destroy the Ur-Council. Turns out it was the Ecclesiarchy.

Adpetus Mechanicus had formerly spoken against the rise of the Ecclesiarchy and helped to curb its power throughought M34 and M35. But now, with the whole Segmentum Pacificus seceding, a strong Ecclesiarchy was a better ally than a weak Ecclesiarchy was an enemy.

Adeptus Terra paid the price for this in M36 but even Goge Vandire could not bring Mars to heel.

@Manchu: That sir is a well explained position....and you almost got me with it. We've been around in so many circles I almost forgot where we started this. It was with your statement
"In other words, it more likely signified a potential Martian usurpation of the Ecclesiarchy than the reverse."

To me that means you do think The Fabricator-General being Space Pope is possible. And somehow the Moirie schism enables it.

Right, I think I get it now.

Even if the Moirae Adepts could hear the Emperor, it didn't matter to the Fabricator General or the rest of the Mechanicus as it weakened their sovereign position, it completely went against what had been established when the two Empires joined forces during M30ish and undermined their own faith that had been practiced long before the union.

Also, what was the Martian Empire doing while the Warp storm surrounded Terra? Was the Mechanicus actively waging war in the Galaxy against Xenos and Techno-heretics? (If the book Mechnicum covers this please tell as I have it but kind of lost interest in it a few chapters in, but would consider reading it again.)

Manchu wrote:Context provides clarity, no? Mars and Terra are empires not churches.

They're not. Or rather - they are in a way that the network of Shrine Worlds under Ecclesiarchal control are an "empire". When it comes down to it, there is actually little political difference between the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Adeptus Ministorum. Both are religious organisations who have custodianship of a number of planets, duties extending beyond, and a seat on the Imperial Senate.

Manchu wrote:It certainly is, in the sense that the Emperor himself is the leader of the civilian government.

I would say it is more accurate that the Emperor is above the civilian government - exactly as the 6E rulebook chart shows. There is no official seat for the Emperor reserved in some boardroom of the Adeptus Terra. If he were still around, he'd simply pass along orders to them.

To draw a real-life comparison, the President of the United States isn't a "member" of the Bureau of Administration, either. Or congress. Or the senate.

Manchu wrote:This is different from saying that the Administratum controls the Ecclesiarchy, which is wrong and which I never even implied.

"Hierarchically subordinate" is actually implying this, and you said the Ecclesiarchy would be subordinate to both the AdMech and the Administratum. It appears you just meant something different, but your previous posts certainly deliver a "wrong" message regarding this subject, even if unintentionally.

Manchu wrote:Moreover, the Fabricator-General is NOT the subordinate of the Emperor. He is the sovereign of an independent empire bound to the Terran empire.

There is no "independent Martian Empire" anymore, ever since the Adeptus Mechanicus was forced to bow to the Emperor. The Fabricator-General is a High Lord of the Senatorum, and all High Lords are his subjects. The Forge Worlds are sovereign territories from the Adeptus Terra's control, but that does not mean they do not belong to the Imperium of Man - as the rulebooks show. And the Imperium of Man can only have one single leader, not two.

Which also explains why Inquisitors can commandeer Titan Legions, by the way. They're on the same level as the High Lords, which means higher than the Mechanicus.

Manchu wrote:All the chart says is that the Ecclesiarchy is not managed by Adeptus Terra or the Adeptus Mechanicus. What I am talking about is that one is an Empire and the other is the official church of that Empire. The Empire is therefore a higher level institution.

There is no "Martian Empire" anymore - and even if it were, why exactly should it be a "higher level institution" when the chart places it on the exact same level, and under the same level of control of the High Lords?

You're really grasping at straws here. Show me something that backs your opinion up.

Manchu wrote:100% incorrect. The Imperium of Man is the union of Mars and Terra. These two, independent empires pre-existed the rise of the Emperor. His great achievement was to forge them together.

Yes, by force of arms. At which point the Adeptus Mechanicus became a sort of satellite state under control of the Council of High Lords as the Emperor's direct representatives.

Manchu wrote:Adeptus Terra has no right to tithe a Forge World because that world was never part of the Terran Empire.

No, the Adeptus Terra has no right to tithe a Forge World because the Adeptus Terra is not higher on the chart than the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Manchu wrote:By contrast, Shrine Worlds are part of the Terran Empire -- the Administratum exempts them.

See above.

Manchu wrote:Sure it is: "These radical teachings included references to the future overthrow of Mars and the fusion of the Adeptus Mechanicus and Ecclesiarchy."

That's not what I was talking about at all. I'm referring to the Imperial Creed, which includes the Emperor's divinity. If the Moirae Schism truly promoted the Imperial Creed, then it also promoted the Emperor being a god and master of all mankind, and the Ecclesiarch to be his highest representative. Obviously, this would make the Ecclesiarch a much more powerful person than the Fabricator General even amongst the latter's own people, which is why (in the AdMech's eyes) the Schism had to be put down.

Manchu wrote:Sure we do -- or at least we have a damn good idea. The Ecclesiarchy recovered exactly because of the opportunity posed by the Nova Terra Interregnum.

Except that this is not what the Codex fluff says. As mentioned before, the Ecclesiarchy recovered because of the changes instituted by Greigor, which means mid M35.
Why exactly should the Interregnum even be an opportunity that makes the Ecclesiarchy stronger? The opposite is the case - the Ecclesiarchy already needed to be strong at this point, else it could not have acted on it!

Ah Lynata, this is discussion that involves the BRB and Codexes, right in your wheelhouse and I agree by the way.

lol @ wheelhouse

I'm disappointed, tho. I just checked my 6E BRB and the bit about the Moirae Schism doesn't say anything about what the schism is actually about.

If it's not just made up by some wiki editor, I'll have to presume that this info is contained in the Imperial Armour book referenced on the Lexicanum article - but aside from me generally treating any non-studio source with scepticism, I don't have it, which kinda hampers my ability to discuss the issue. :/

Okay, I think I see that the tit-for-tat quote block style of argument is definitely not helpful for KC and it seems to be just as unhelpful for Lynata. So I'll try the other way again. And I will ask you guys not to respond with tit-for-tat quote blocks as well, as a courtesy.

First principle: The Emperor is the "ground" or "field" upon which the Imperium is possible. He is the context of the Imperium. He is not just the founder and the "king." His symbolic person is the necessary condition of the Imperium.

Second principle: Imperium and empire are not synonymous. "Imperium" refers to a particular political alliance, the unification of humanity. "Empire" refers to a general concept, the concept of a sovereign political institution.

Third principle: "Hierarchy" does not imply relationships of authority. Rather, "hierarchy" implies levels of organization. A family is one hierarchical level. A church is another. Saying they are hierarchical units does not imply that a particular family goes to a particular church. Some families do not go to any church. The unit of family is still at a lower or subordinate level of hierarchy than the unit of church.

Flashback: Terra and Mars are the capitals of two separate empires. Each capital was isolated from its wider empire by Warp storms. On Terra, central authority disappeared. Then the Emperor showed up and reunited Terra into one empire. The boundary of that empire was the surface of Terra.

Then the Emperor went to Mars. Mars was also centralized into one planetary empire. Its boundary was the surface of Mars (and may have extended into the solar system). The Emperor did not conquer Mars and fold it into his Terran empire. Instead he made an alliance with Mars. Mars would provide resources for the Emperor's armies to reconquer the old galactic Terran empire and in exchange the Emperor's armies would also reclaim the worlds of the old Martian galactic empire on behalf of Mars.

This alliance is the Imperium of Man. The factor that unites the two empires such that they are one Imperium is the person of the Emperor himself. (This is my first principle above.) The specific mechanism of this unity is the recognition by the Adeptus Mechanicus of the Emperor as their Omnissiah.

Please remember that the Emperor who demanded/accepted this recognition refused to be considered a god. Therefore, the Emperor could not have been claiming or accepting the office of the Machine God's divine avatar. This must therefore have been explicitly understood as a political arrangement whereby the Emperor did not become the master of the Mechanicum itself bu rather the master of the Imperium -- the so-called "Master of Mankind."

The Omnissiah, as understood in the context of the Imperium, means the man who would bring back understanding of technology to Mars. This is not a metaphor or a merely mystical issue. It was literally true at the time and it was the condition of the alliance between Mars and Terra. By liberating the Forge Worlds (including tracking down the ancient STCs) the Emperor would literally be the Omnissiah.

The Emperor swayed the Mechanicum not only by the threat of force but also because he demonstrably surpassed the Adeptus Mechanicus's understanding of technology. For example, we know that he could make Primarchs and engineer a Webway. He was indeed and provably the Omnissiah. "Machine, heal thyself."

The title "Master of Mankind" therefore is made up of and surpasses his two other titles: the Emperor of Terra and the Omnissiah of the Adeptus Mechanicus. The Imperium therefore is the union of Mars and Terra -- two distinct and hierarchical co-equal sovereign empires. (Two-headed eagle.)

The Imperium is a higher or superior hierarchical level of organization. But it does not imply direct authority in the sense of military rank. The Emperor is the messiah of the Adeptus Mechanicus,, not its commanding officer. The Emperor of Terra does not command Mars; Mars follows the Omnissiah. They are different roles of the same person.

"Master of Mankind" is therefore not a rank, like Fabricator-General or Ecclesiarch, but rather a description of what makes the Imperium possible -- the unity of humanity.

We can see this distinction in action when we look to the Senatorum Imperialis (emphasis on Imperialis): the Fabricator-General is a co-equal member and cannot be ordered around by his peers in the Adeptus Terra.

The Horus Heresy happened. No need to get into it, I think.

A thousand years later, the Temple of the Savior Emperor became the official religion of the Terran Empire -- and this is very important -- NOT of the Martian empire. When we say the Ecclesiarchy is the church of the Imperium, we are overstating it (i.e., we are speaking from a Terran point of view). We don't usually think about it but it's obviously true: the Adeptus Mechanicus does not acknowledge the Emperor as the god worshiped by the Ecclesiarchy but rather as the Omnissiah.

The Ecclesiarchy is a lower level of hierarchical organization than either the Martian or Terran empires. It is the religious institution of the Terran empire. This is where I was too hasty earlier: the Adeptus Terra and the Adeptus Mechanicus are also lower hierarchical levels than their respective empires. They are the governments of those empires.

In the case of the Martian empire, the Adeptus Mechanicus is both the religious institution and the government of the Martian empire. Why the Priesthood of Terra is not also the religious institution of Terra probably has to do with the Emperor refusing to be worshiped as a God when he created the Adeptus Terra.

From M32 until M34, the power of the Ecclesiarchy grew and grew and grew. The Ecclesiarchy was becoming one with the government of Terra. The religion-government of Mars objected to this as a potential threat to the consitution of the Imperium: namely that Mars and Terra were separate, co-equal empires who in alliance made up the Imperium. If the Imperium could be dominated by the Ecclesiarchy, the Adeptus Mechanicum rightly worried that would entail it also dominating Mars.

The Adeptus Mechanicum, working with the more skeptical Terran institutions (the Administratum and Astartes), successfully sought to curb the power of the Ecclesiarchy in M34. What they did not understand is that the Ecclesiarchy was holding the far-flung Imperial domain together. Weakening the Ecclesiarchy also meant weakening the Imperium.

This correlation is probably why the Ecclesiarchy developed relatively soon after the Horus Heresy. The Imperium needed faith to bind it together. It apparently needed this even when the Emperor was still active (hence the development of the proto-Imperial cults before and during the Heresy).

This weakness was exposed when the Ur-Council seceded from the Imperium. Neither the Adeptus Terra nor the Ecclesiarchy were strong enough to prevent this from happening or to correct it. The Adeptus Mechanicum did not have jurisdiction over this matter because the Nova Terra Interregnum was a matter of the Terran rather than the Martian empire splitting up.

The Adeptus Mechanicus was strong enough such that the Martian empire did not split along with the Terran one. Still, the split of the Terran empire meant that the Imperium was split. As a part of the Imperium, this deeply troubled the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Why did the Martian empire not split? This is easy. Just compare it to the Terran empire. The Terran empire split because its religious institution was weakened. By contrast, the religious institution of the Martian empire was never weakened.

This is the context of the Moirae Schism.

According to Imperial Armour Volume X, "A severe doctrinal conflict within the Cult Mechanicus occurred during the early years of M35." The Nova Terra Interregnum was already going on "and this factor allowed the swift spread of radical doctrines." Micro-fluctuation-based prophesies in the Astronomicon were interpreted by the sages of Forge World Moirae "as the word of the Omnissiah-God-Emperor" as prophecies including "veiled references to the future overthrow of Mars and the fusion of the Cult Mechanicus and the Ecclesiarchy into a unified whole."

The Adeptus Mechanicus immediately destroyed Forge World Moirae but didn't completely stamp out the Moirae Schism until the end of M35. That coincides with the destruction of the Ur-Council by the Ecclesiarchy.

What were the Priests of Mars so worried about? Obviously, they didn't want the Martian empire split up like the Terran empire had split. They held up their end of the Imperium. And they needed, in order to definitively stamp out the Moirae Schism and thus prevent such a split, the Terran ends of the Imperium to be reunified. We know this because, as Imperial Armor Volume X points out, the Moirae Schism would not have spread so quickly if the Imperium was not in shambles.

Now why did the Ecclesiarchy recover by the end of M35 and become more powerful than ever? Because of some Ecclesiarch? Yes maybe he was a good leader. But even a good leader can be blocked by other good leaders. The answer lies in why the Ecclesiarchy weakened between M34 and M35 -- i.e., because it was opposed by the Adeptus Mechanicus and others. The Nova Terra Interregnum gave the Adpetus Mechanicus and the others good reason to no longer oppose the Ecclesiarchy. For one thing, Mars had its own problems. For another thing, Mars wanted the Terran empire reunified so that the Imperium at large would also be re-unified.


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 Medium of Death wrote:
Right, I think I get it now.

Even if the Moirae Adepts could hear the Emperor, it didn't matter to the Fabricator General or the rest of the Mechanicus as it weakened their sovereign position, it completely went against what had been established when the two Empires joined forces during M30ish and undermined their own faith that had been practiced long before the union.

Also, what was the Martian Empire doing while the Warp storm surrounded Terra? Was the Mechanicus actively waging war in the Galaxy against Xenos and Techno-heretics? (If the book Mechnicum covers this please tell as I have it but kind of lost interest in it a few chapters in, but would consider reading it again.)

So number one, you are exactly correct. Number two, stuff was going on in the solar system during the warp storms. Somebody was just quoting old fluff last week or last month or anyway recently, which is the only reason I know anything about it. In fact, sometimes Terra was ruled by Luna apparently. I don't remember what was said about Mars.

EDIT: lol -- it was from this very thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/457902.page#4456634

Very well written, really it is. One of those posts that makes me hope you're using your literary skills for something besides internet nerd arguments as well (not that there's anything wrong with those). It is much like my first threadromancey post. I agree with everything just take issue with the idea that The Adeptus Mechanicus could ever subsume The Imperial Cult or The Eccelsiarchy. They simply do not have the support of the common man. And don't dismiss the power of the common man. The Eccleiarchy owes everything it has, which is considerable, to the common man. My only question is if you still think that? If not then really, I'm good.

I actually never thought that. The Fabricator-General did not want to subsume the Ecclesiarchy. Who knows if such a thing was even possible? Imperial Armour Volume X does not even clarify that this what the Moirae Schismatics even wanted.

In fact, it does not matter what they thought. All that matters is that the Fabricator-General perceived that this schism could result in a break up of the Martian empire just as the Terran empire had broken apart.

My point that you are referring to is that it's not a great assumption that the Moirae schismatics believed the Ecclesiarchy would take over the Adeptus Mechanicus. As Lynata correctly answered, it's more likely that they thought their own belief system would overthrow the Adeptus Mechanicus. Who knows what would happen after that? Even if the Adpetus Mechanicus was to accept the idea that the Omnissiah was also the God-Emperor that doesn't mean the Ecclesiarchy would just accept the idea that the God-Emperor was also the Omnissiah.

In answer to your comment about nerd arguments: I am a lawyer by trade. My whole life is nerd arguments of one sort or another.

 Manchu wrote:


In answer to your comment about nerd arguments: I am a lawyer by trade. My whole life is nerd arguments of one sort or another.

God in Heaven! So there is a hell worse than Forum Moderator!

Anyway, I don't think the schismatics (Best word ever) think their belief system will overthrow the Ecclesiarchy either or even The Mechanicum priesthood for that matter. They believe there will be a natural coming together of the two. Something intolerable to the Mechanicum bigwigs. Remember The Admech's official line is that The Emperor is their messiah too. That's what allows the priesthoods of Terra and Mars to co-exist. They agree on who's divine. That's why in the end it is old fashioned politics. The Fabricator-General is protecting his crown.

If your comment about the the usurpation of The Eccsiarchy by The Mechanicum is only as a point of contrast of how likely that is in comparison to the vice versa rather than a plausible scenario then I see what you're saying. I still completely disagree with it but it's still more reasonable.

 Manchu wrote:
Mechanicum doesn't mention the Emperor fighting a war against Mars. IIRC, the Emperor is greeted by Knight Titans and the Knight Titans are in turn overcome by the apparent divinity of the Emperor. "Machine, heal thyself."

Aweseom quotations, though! I'm always glad to see cool stuff like Luna dominating the Solar System at certain points in the Age of Strife.

Mechanicum does mention the Emperor psychically dominating Kelbor Hal or whatever his name is and forcing him to do stuff though, lol.

The Emperor doesn't need to rely to petty threats. His telepathic power is so great that most are compelled to serve him regardless.

There are two, interrelated points that are crucial to understanding the Moirae Schism:

(1) Mars and Terra are two separate empires and the alliance between them is the Imperium (hence the aquila).

(2) The God-Emperor and the Omnissiah are not the same thing and neither of them are the same thing as the Master of Mankind.

If you don't get this, you can't understand the schism or why it was such a big deal. If you get this, you can further understand why the Sons of Medusa were vetted by the High Lords (including the Fabricator-General) after the Age of Apostasy. A thousand Marines with a weird belief is no big deal in the context of a unified Imperium -- but the unification is only possible in the original sense of the Imperium: the union of sovereign Mars and sovereign Terra, which is personified by the Emperor and enacted by the Senatorum Imperialis (and Inquisition).

Keep in mind that the Emperor has many separate roles:

- the Master of Mankind
- the Emperor of Terra
- the Omnissiah
- the God-Emperor
- the Father of the Astartes

If you understand this, you can see why Kelbor Hal's treachery was just as vile as Horus's. Horus betrayed his father. Kelbor Hal betrayed the Omnissiah. But the main issue for both was that they both renounced the Master of Mankind.

I started this thread because I didn't understand what the big deal was about saying the Omnissiah was also the God-Emperor. Now I understand it, so this thread has achieved its purpose as far as I am concerned.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Emperor doesn't need to rely to petty threats. His telepathic power is so great that most are compelled to serve him regardless.

The main thing, however, is that Emperor truly was the Omnissiah -- as long as you don't get confused and think of the Omnissiah as some manifestation of the Void Dragon or whatever. More than any other human being, he understood technology. And he was restoring technology to the Mechanicum as per his treaty with Mars.

Perhaps a good analogy is The United Kingdom (of course right). The UK is the United Kingdoms of England and Scotland and The Monarch is queen of both. Terra is England and Mars is Scotland and Britian is Imperium. British is often used erroneously to refer to English but it really means both. Just like Imperial refers to both groups. However, once again like in real life everyone is fine with that misnomer especially The Scottish. The Scots prefer the term Scottish and Mechicum-folk Mechanicum though technically The Term British\Imperial does apply. Of course The Emperor is....The Queen.

It's more an uneasy alliance between two religions following the same rough path. Like the Orthodox and Catholics during the Crusades. Merging them would have been catastrophic and the dissidents of Moirae failed to see that. They saw only the rationalizations and how both paths could be stronger, and could overcome the differences.