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I have, you are choosing to ignore my rules quotes.

If you save a wound, then you do not have an unsaved wound.

ES can not effect a model that has passed its FNP roll.

The timing of ES and the Boneswords are the same, so they must both go after FNP is rolled.

nohman wrote:But if the LD check DOES pass and inflict instant death, then you were never allowed to even attempt that FNP save in the first place. Therefore you cheated.

Not true. You're attempting to go back in time. You have no permission to do so - at the time the FnP test was made, it was valid.

It's like me claiming that your Flamer couldn't have killed my Genestealers because my Biovores killed the Flamer 2 turns later.

Can we finish this with a flowchart?

Did it wound?- No- End
l
Yes
l
Take LD test
l
Did you fail?-No-Take FNP test-Did you fail?-No-wound saved-End
l
Yes
l
Instant Death
l
End

DeathReaper wrote:I have, you are choosing to ignore my rules quotes.

If you save a wound, then you do not have an unsaved wound.

ES can not effect a model that has passed its FNP roll.

The timing of ES and the Boneswords are the same, so they must both go after FNP is rolled.

I am not ignoring your rules quotes. You are making up rules and adding interpretations that have no basis in the rules and are not supported more than anything other than your desire for it to work that way.

The wound from a bonesword caused ID. If you make your Ld test, it stops this.

That is the way the rule is worded. Pass the test, or suffer ID.
It does not say that failing makes it ID, it says that passing stops it.

The default is ID.

******

Beyond that.
Once you fail your save, there *is* an unsaved wound. It might be that FnP will change that. But at this point in time, there *is* an unsaved wound.

Two things trigger because of this unsaved wound
FnP
Ld test.

This debate really has nothing to do with rules, it's order of operation.

Bonesword say you IMMEDIATELY take a ld test, it goes first.

A passed "Feel No Pain" roll treats a wound as if it were a saved wound this is true. You're ignoring the fact that you only get to take the feel no pain test against an unsaved wound which is the same trigger that the bone swords.

Roll to hit
Roll to wound
Roll save

Unsaved wound = feel no pain and bone swords at the same time

Bone swords say immediately and feel no pain does not so bone swords must come first.

The best argument you could make against this is on page 9 under exceptions where it says when both players have something that has to happen at the same time, the player who's turn it is chooses what order the events take place.

rigeld2 wrote:Not true. You're attempting to go back in time. You have no permission to do so - at the time the FnP test was made, it was valid.

I disagree. There is no need to go back in time and you cannot slip FnP in before the wound "becomes" ID and thus negate it.
Remember that FnP is NOT a saving throw. It says so, rather specifically (check the parentheses). So, when the save is failed, the model has suffered an unsaved wound. Do you disagree with this? FnP may only trigger "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound." So, if you want to use your FnP, you have to admit that you have suffered an unsaved wound.
What else happen when an unsaved wound occurs? You IMMEDIATELY take a leadership test. If you fail that test, the model suffers ID. Done.

RatLord wrote:The best argument you could make against this is on page 9 under exceptions where it says when both players have something that has to happen at the same time, the player who's turn it is chooses what order the events take place.

I'm pretty sure we can quash that one too. Boneswords say "Immediately", FnP says "can." That's not at the same time.

Boneswords happen on 'unsaved wounds', not 'unsaved Wounds'.

Your point?

The two things are different.

unsaved Wound is directly referenced in the FNP rules.

boneswords say IF a model suffers an unsaved wound.

boneswords go off after saves are taken, and after we determine if there are any unsaved Wounds, as they talk about suffering an unsaved wound.

DeathReaper wrote:The two things are different.

unsaved Wound is directly referenced in the FNP rules.

boneswords say IF a model suffers an unsaved wound.

boneswords go off after saves are taken, and after we determine if there are any unsaved Wounds, as they talk about suffering an unsaved wound.

Prove it with rules. Prove that Wounds go before wounds. I'll say it a third time hoping you will finally get the point. Prove it.

Capitalization is a convention the book uses to talk about a specific process. E.G. To Hit, To Wound, unsaved Wound.

Not capitalized, not a specific process and just a result.

DeathReaper wrote:Capitalization is a convention the book uses to talk about a specific process. E.G. To Hit, To Wound, unsaved Wound.

Not capitalized, not a specific process and just a result.

What page is that on?

Wounds characteristic P.2

wounds Pages: 33,35,42 etc.

DeathReaper wrote:
boneswords go off after saves are taken, and after we determine if there are any unsaved Wounds, as they talk about suffering an unsaved wound.

Boneswords ignore your save. Unless you have an invuln you never got your save. You didn't get your save so BOTH ID and FNP are both triggers. The only thing you can argue about is order of operation.

Well, unsaved wounds don't seem to actually exist. I guess that means, since close combat only inflicts Wounds and not wounds, boneswords actually do nothing. Thank you for opening my eyes to this deep and hidden knowledge.
The actual truth is that the capitalization, and lack thereof, is entirely meaningless. The game makes zero distinction and zero mention of there being any actual difference (timing or otherwise) between an unsaved Wound and an unsaved wound. You cannot prove otherwise.
Thanks for the laugh though. I love seeing the odd rule-cults that exist out there.

DeathReaper wrote:Wounds characteristic P.2

wounds Pages: 33,35,42 etc.

You do realize that the capitals point out Proper Nouns that describe more than just processes. An unsaved Wound is not a process, it is a result. To Hit is a process, To Wound is a process, Attacks is a noun; Wound is a noun that describes both the amount of attacks a model can endure and a Hit that caused damage to a model. Unsaved wound is a result. It is a Wound that has gone through the Take Saving Throws step was not saved, either because you failed it or you did not get one. Capitals do not show processes but proper nouns to describe characteristics or processes, or even results.

I don't see the part that says that a process goes before a result. What page is that on? Also what page does it say that Wounds always go first? Also where does it say that "Capitalization is a convention the book uses to talk about a specific process. E.G. To Hit, To Wound, unsaved Wound. Not capitalized, not a specific process and just a result."?

Also the Tyranid codex is written before 6th ed, where the capitals had not yet risen to power. If the capital has as much to do with the game as you say then you have to take into account that the codex is outdated and as such take everything with a grain of salt. Unsaved Wound and unsaved wound are functionally the same thing, one is how they chose to write it in the new rulebook, one is how they chose to write it in the old rulebook. But until there is an FAQ stating what the capitals mean it is just you making up rules.

Fafnir13 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Not true. You're attempting to go back in time. You have no permission to do so - at the time the FnP test was made, it was valid.

I disagree. There is no need to go back in time and you cannot slip FnP in before the wound "becomes" ID and thus negate it.
Remember that FnP is NOT a saving throw. It says so, rather specifically (check the parentheses). So, when the save is failed, the model has suffered an unsaved wound. Do you disagree with this? FnP may only trigger "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound." So, if you want to use your FnP, you have to admit that you have suffered an unsaved wound.
What else happen when an unsaved wound occurs? You IMMEDIATELY take a leadership test. If you fail that test, the model suffers ID. Done.

How's about you don't ignore context mkay pumpkin?

I was responding to the idea that boneswords causing ID somehow would make a FnP roll cheating retroactively.

The way the Bonesword rules read, they default to ID, and are thwarted if you pass a Ld test.

FNP makes you roll for an unsaved wound. "No matter what kind of crazy rule follows"

Bonesword causes an unsaved wound.

FNP kicks in before anything. You have an unsaved wound to roll for.

If FNP doesn't work then you roll for the crazy rule that follows.

What caused you to roll a Leadership test? An unsaved wound. What Special Ability has you roll a dice for unsaved wounds? FNP

GW tells us to play like gentlemen and not all at your throat punks. So if you have a power that has a crazy rule after a wound is caused....why would you not let them use FNP? It's a freaking 5+ save. Only a 1/3 chance.

Lets be honest. Plague Marines have a Leadership of 10 but with 1 wound. Your only viable target are Nobs on bikes with FNP. So you are arguing a point only to kill Nobs?

What the hell does "Immediately" mean to you people then?

MJThurston wrote:FNP makes you roll for an unsaved wound. "No matter what kind of crazy rule follows"

Bonesword causes an unsaved wound.


What caused you to roll a Leadership test? An unsaved wound. What Special Ability has you roll a dice for unsaved wounds? FNP

GW tells us to play like gentlemen and not all at your throat punks. So if you have a power that has a crazy rule after a wound is caused....why would you not let them use FNP? It's a freaking 5+ save. Only a 1/3 chance.

I don't think we're being "Gentlemen" by just accepting something as fact that has in truth not been solved one way or the other. Passing a Leadership test isn't exactly a "Hard" roll against a 10 so please don't bring in the 1/3 chance

Personally my reading is Codex > Rulebook and the Codex says "Unsaved Wound" and "Immediately". So the clear argument is, does FNP make the "save" of the wound or simply "ignore" the wound. If it ignores the wound, then the leadership test still needs to happen.

I'm only a new 40ker, but the way i read the rule (in my un-influenced lack of experience..

You roll to hit. It hits.. you have a hit
You roll to wound. It wounds.. you have a wound
You roll to save. It fails.. You have an unsaved wound.

Bonesword says when you have an unsaved wound, immediately.. So as soon as you have an unsaved wound (as a result of the failed save) You take the LD test.

You roll the LD test. You pass.. Your model has not suffered ID as a result of it's unsaved wound.
As you have an unsaved wound, roll FNP. It passes.. You -discount- the wound. (You do not Anull it. The wound -has- happened. It is already there. You simply do not count it for the process of determining rules ie.. treat it as saved for this purpose)

broodstar wrote:This debate really has nothing to do with rules, it's order of operation.

Bonesword say you IMMEDIATELY take a ld test, it goes first.

Uh, as I have read this nonsense like fifty times now:

"Immediately after suffering a wound" comes after "when suffering a wound". You know, because even "immediately after" is still after you have suffered the wound, while "when" indicates the exact time you suffer the wound. GW even used present tense in the FNP rules.

To illustrate:

But it doesn't say "immediately after" It says "when a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds... it must immediately pass a leadership test or suffer instant death".

The only difference in timing is that Boneswords is that it uses a qualifier that means "with no intervening time", and FNP doesn't.

For what it's worth, and I can't believe I have to go this far;

Oxford English Dictionary wrote:adverb
1 at once; instantly:
I rang immediately for an ambulance
2 without any intervening time or space:
she was sitting immediately behind me
3 in direct or very close relation:
they would be the states most immediately affected by any such action

Either meaning one or two is relevant here, if you do anything (such as rolling for FNP) before the Bonesword check, then you have not done that "immediately" have you?

MJThurston wrote:GW tells us to play like gentlemen and not all at your throat punks. So if you have a power that has a crazy rule after a wound is caused....why would you not let them use FNP? It's a freaking 5+ save. Only a 1/3 chance.

Because that breaks the rules. Being a gentleman does not mean I let you do whatever you want. Why does being a gentleman mean I have to back down to whatever you say? Why can't you be a gentleman and let me win? Because being a gentleman has nothing to do with letting you win the argument, it has to do with how you handle it in a game. In a game this would have been decided by a die roll, then discussed after the game. That is being a gentleman.

Lets be honest. Plague Marines have a Leadership of 10 but with 1 wound. Your only viable target are Nobs on bikes with FNP. So you are arguing a point only to kill Nobs?

Anyone can fail a leadership test, even Plague Marines. But don't you think if I get lucky and you fail your 10 LD don't I deserve to get my special rule? This is not about killing Nobs, it is about following the rules as written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jidmah wrote:

broodstar wrote:This debate really has nothing to do with rules, it's order of operation.

Bonesword say you IMMEDIATELY take a ld test, it goes first.

Uh, as I have read this nonsense like fifty times now:

"Immediately after suffering a wound" comes after "when suffering a wound". You know, because even "immediately after" is still after you have suffered the wound, while "when" indicates the exact time you suffer the wound. GW even used present tense in the FNP rules.

As was pointed out before it doesn't say "immediately after suffering a wound", it says "if a model suffers one or more wounds". FNP doesn't use present tense, it uses future tense. Boneswords also use future tense. If and when both describe an action that has not yet happened but is expected to happen. That is future tense. Before you make an argument please make sure you know what you are talking about. "If a model takes a wound" and "when a model takes a wound" happen at the same time. "Must immediately pass a leadership test" happens before "can take a special Feel No Pain roll".

@drathreaper: Does thinking you're the only same person in the world make you crazy?

EVERYONE else on this thread agrees that FNP CANNOT come before the effects of the bonesword due to the fact that they come into effect off the same trigger: an unsaved wound. However the bonesword rule gives it an imperative: immediately. Does immediately mean, "oh wait I've got to do this other thing first?" NO. It means after you fail one of your three types of "save", and only one of which is even viable in this situation since cover saves cannot be taken on CC and armor saves would be ignored due to the Tyrant being an MC. The only save possible would be an invo save, which if you fail means you suffered an "unsaved wound." FNP is not a save and it does not have ANY rule that states that it is. Therefore after you've failed your invo save, if applicable, you MUST enact the effects of the bonesword to see if ID is inflicted on the model. If it is not, THEN and only then can you take your FNP "ROLL." IT IS NOT A SAVE.

Skulltaker86 wrote:@drathreaper: Does thinking you're the only same person in the world make you crazy?

EVERYONE else on this thread agrees that FNP CANNOT come before the effects of the bonesword due to the fact that they come into effect off the same trigger: an unsaved wound. However the bonesword rule gives it an imperative: immediately. Does immediately mean, "oh wait I've got to do this other thing first?" NO. It means after you fail one of your three types of "save", and only one of which is even viable in this situation since cover saves cannot be taken on CC and armor saves would be ignored due to the Tyrant being an MC. The only save possible would be an invo save, which if you fail means you suffered an "unsaved wound." FNP is not a save and it does not have ANY rule that states that it is. Therefore after you've failed your invo save, if applicable, you MUST enact the effects of the bonesword to see if ID is inflicted on the model. If it is not, THEN and only then can you take your FNP "ROLL." IT IS NOT A SAVE.

Truth. But remember boneswords ignore armor, so even on a Gaunt you would only get an Invo save.

Skulltaker86 wrote:@drathreaper: Does thinking you're the only same person in the world make you crazy?

EVERYONE else on this thread agrees that FNP CANNOT come before the effects of the bonesword

Read the thread maybe?

Check Page 1, there are many people that agree with me.

Skulltaker86 wrote:It means after you fail one of your three types of "save"

Read boneswords again it says

"IF you suffer an unsaved wound."

Passing a FNP does not make you suffer an unsaved wound.