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jbunny wrote:

 phxlord Eldrad wrote:

 Homer S wrote:

 phxlord Eldrad wrote:
The Eldar codex is too old to be taking the wording literally. Being that Eldar and DE are battle brothers and farseers can cast psychic powers on the DE, the Avatar would confer fearless to the DE that are in range.

Huh? In that case, they probably meant StarCannons to be Heavy 3. Yeah, that's the ticket!

FYI, Farseer buff powers all say Eldar units too.

Homer

Clearly that's not what I meant, but I like your enthusiasm. Maybe my friends and I are just more casual players than you, but we use farseer powers on DE too since they're battle brothers. My point is that while the RAW says "Eldar units", I think the RAI for that has changed since there were no allied detachments back then. And I wouldn't even be arguing the point if they weren't battle brothers, that changes everything in my mind. Clearly the Avatar or farseer can't help out Marine detachments

Can he help Tau? Tau and Eldar are battle brothers.

Of course not. While they may be battle-brothers, the Tau don't worship Khaine. Only some crazy dude named "Greater Good".

I don't think they would get it. I think it would be much like how Eldar psychic powers have been found to work in this edition. I.E. you cannot cast Eldar codex powers on Dark Eldar, as they are not Eldar but rather Dark Eldar (even in the lore, Eldar do not see Dark Eldar as the same anymore. They are physically and mentally different now). The way 6th edition is for the powers is you cannot cast the power on a DE unit, but you can cast it on a Eldar unit and have a DE IC join it to gain the power. It would work the same way here. The DE units would not be fearless, but a IC in a Eldar unit around the Avatar would be fearless.

Right. It seems their arguement for the Avatar making Dark Eldar fearless is being battle Brothers. But so are the Tau. If he does not work for the Tau, then he can't work for the Dark Eldar. You know, that army that has its own Codex, Fluff, rules, and is totally not Eldar.

Actually, you can cast powers on DE since they're battle brothers. The question is whether it's only 40k disciplines, or the codex Eldar powers as well.

@ jbunny, I'd say yes, the Avatar makes Tau fearless too. It's not a question of whether they worship him or not, it's the fact that they're being led by a war god, which I'm pretty sure would make them excited too. But again, that's only if the Avatar makes DE fearless, which of course is the question at hand

Well when the Eldar codex says it effects "Eldar" and not friendly units I say no to both. Battle Brothers makes them friendly, and nothing more. They can't even carpool together.

I see where you say that, since that's raw. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree since I think we should interpret the older codexes differently. On the other hand, if it still says only Eldar when the new codex comes out, then clearly it's only Eldar since the new codex will account for detachments and the like.

Of course, there's another solution entirely; continue to disagree Then, when playing a game, just roll off on it. I've had to do that in a local tourney before. I'd say that's a viable solution until Eldar go 6th ed lol.

Well the only way we can interpret it is with RAW. I agree Eldar is an older codex, but that does not mean it needs FAQ's. And I am an Eldar player. And since they FAQ'ed every Marine Dex from "Friendly" to "From x Codex", you could very well argue that their intent is for the benefits not cross codices.

And forcing a die roll just because you do not agree with RAW in a tournament is being that player.

jbunny wrote:
Well the only way we can interpret it is with RAW. I agree Eldar is an older codex, but that does not mean it needs FAQ's. And I am an Eldar player. And since they FAQ'ed every Marine Dex from "Friendly" to "From x Codex", you could very well argue that their intent is for the benefits not cross codices.

And forcing a die roll just because you do not agree with RAW in a tournament is being that player.

Sometimes things slip the cracks on a faq, sometimes they want it to stay the way it is, like you mean. The problem is we don't know which is which in this case. And I didn't force the roll, we disagreed on the RAI for los! rolls. But I'm just saying, if you really can't come to a consensus, it's an option.

You are arguing RAI in a RAW discussion. I'm done with you.

Well if we're sticking strictly to raw, then there's no denying the Avatar power doesn't apply. But I think discussions of older codexes are all about rai since there weren't things like allies in 4th, so raw doesn't account for those things.

Except for the freaking FAQ update.

They were no Allies in 5th either, and so far there has been NO 6th Codex.

 phxlord Eldrad wrote:
Well if we're sticking strictly to raw, then there's no denying the Avatar power doesn't apply. But I think discussions of older codexes are all about rai since there weren't things like allies in 4th, so raw doesn't account for those things.

They could have FaQ'd it to say if they meant something different than "Eldar". Dark Eldar are named Dark Eldar, Eldar are named Eldar. The power can't go over, and even in the fluff the Eldar specifically say that Dark Eldar are entirely different from them. Hell they have no psychic powers and translucent skin....I don't think you can say they simply get it because "they are also Eldar". They are an entirely different thing now as far as fluff is concerned and they are already different per rules/names. The only way to say that it can be cast on DE is simply because you wish it to.

Edit: Solution to this is to roll off for the ones in the 6th edition rulebook. Otherwise you are bound by the Codex: Eldar power stipulations.

 phxlord Eldrad wrote:
Well if we're sticking strictly to raw, then there's no denying the Avatar power doesn't apply. But I think discussions of older codexes are all about rai since there weren't things like allies in 4th, so raw doesn't account for those things.

And RAI says they are different, as well. The DE codex, which was written with 6th in mind, specifies they are different in Vects rule

Can someone answer me this: IG orders can be issued to battle brothers, correct?

Almightyliham wrote:
Can someone answer me this: IG orders can be issued to battle brothers, correct?

No, they changed the wording via FAQ from "friendly unit" to "friendly unit from the IG Codex."

 phxlord Eldrad wrote:

 Homer S wrote:

 phxlord Eldrad wrote:
The Eldar codex is too old to be taking the wording literally. Being that Eldar and DE are battle brothers and farseers can cast psychic powers on the DE, the Avatar would confer fearless to the DE that are in range.

Huh? In that case, they probably meant StarCannons to be Heavy 3. Yeah, that's the ticket!

FYI, Farseer buff powers all say Eldar units too.

Homer

Clearly that's not what I meant, but I like your enthusiasm. Maybe my friends and I are just more casual players than you, but we use farseer powers on DE too since they're battle brothers. My point is that while the RAW says "Eldar units", I think the RAI for that has changed since there were no allied detachments back then. And I wouldn't even be arguing the point if they weren't battle brothers, that changes everything in my mind. Clearly the Avatar or farseer can't help out Marine detachments

In the DE codex, GW made the distinction between Eldar and Dark Eldar being two different things by making the statement regarding Preferred Enemy under Vect. They had the opportunity to FAQ them to be the same. They did not, so they are not. Otherwise, every allied SM/DA/BT/BA/GK/SW army could say their rules work for each other since they are all modified humans commonly known as Space Marines, they clearly do not.

Homer

My opinion is that an avatar does confer fearlessness on Dark Eldar units. The Dark Eldar FAQ specifically mentions that Eldar cannot come on from reserve from a webway portal, so GW is clearly aware of the relationship between the two army lists and chose not to FAQ the avatar to disallow the benefit to Dark Eldar allies.

In addition, that would mean that harlequin units would either be fearless or not solely based on which codex they were purchased from, which doesn't make any sense to me.

Oaka - sadly an opinion not backed up by rules. In fact the rules explicitly confer a difference - Vects rules.

It's pretty obvious that Eldar and DE are just as different as vanilla marines and all their buddies. My point was that the two are battle brothers, but if DE faq says no shared webway, then I think I have my rai answer. So the Avatar wouldn't be shared either. problem solved

So am I missing an FAQ somewhere that changes the wording on Eldar psychic powers? Fortune has to target an Eldar unit, yet there are many lists out there that are using a fortuned Archon w/ shadowfield. How is the wording different between the two cases where we are allowing rerolled shadowfield saves but not the avatar's inspiring presence on Dark Eldar?

Most of the lists revolving around Fortune-ing an Archon with a Shadowfield has the Archon joined to an Eldar unit (which as BB he can do). The Farseer Fortunes the Eldar unit (with attached Archon) and thus he benefits

If a space marine codex said "all space marines" in the generic codex it would effect all space marines unless it was faq'd. The avatar helps all eldar.....even bad ones. If you were fighting against eldar it would be the same.

Plus....rule of cool. Its not like the avatar is that hard to kill.

 sfshilo wrote:
If a space marine codex said "all space marines" in the generic codex it would effect all space marines unless it was faq'd. The avatar helps all eldar.....even bad ones. If you were fighting against eldar it would be the same.

Plus....rule of cool. Its not like the avatar is that hard to kill.

If it said "all Space Marines" in C:SM then you would be wrong due to the context of the codex. Specific noun as opposed to the general noun of space marines. The rules more or less from codices is that Blood Angels are not Space Marines but are space marines.