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 Mannahnin wrote:
And the final results are in!

Mucho kudos to 11th co for another excellent show. Congrats to all involved.

Many congratulations to Tony, who won again, this time the Open and the Invitational.

Sheesh! Fantastic job... he's a one-man wrecking ball!

Flyer lists were pretty bad. I knew of multiple armies that took heavy amounts of flyers and most of them lost very quickly. In fact, everyone that I spoke to about facing the flyer heavy lists beat them and generally with lists that were well balanced to beat both air and ground.

Vehicles cannot score quarters or contest so they essentially counted as dead in both Objectives and Quarters. This made them god-awful. If you could survive Necron strafing runs, you could easily capture the ground. I don't think 3 Wraith squads is enough presence either. Especially when you invest little in troops. I used a Doom Scythe and would probably stick with Annihilation Barges (what do most Infantry units really care if they take 4-5 hits, most of the time at NOVA you have cover). The Night Scythe is great but I think it is even better when it can deliver a unit with good durability into enemy lines, so something like 6-7 Immortals and a Cryptek.

MSU vehicle lists are not good in the NOVA format. I think having a ton of scoring units that are quite durable is all you really need. I won most of my games by small margins not losing many victory points but giving up even less. Ground lists can easily win the war of attrition. Flyers have limited mobility and if your footprint is large enough you can really restrict their shooting. If the game only goes 5 turns then the Flyers may only shoot you twice.

Yea This is happening in my region as well. The key word is Troops! Most people who have flyers take one or two flyers sometimes three but I hardly ever see four or more being played and the reason why is what you have just posted.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
And the final results are in!

Mucho kudos to 11th co for another excellent show. Congrats to all involved.

Many congratulations to Tony, who won again, this time the Open and the Invitational.

Sheesh! Fantastic job... he's a one-man wrecking ball!

What I like about him is that he is really a nice guy. The type of person that represents our hobby as the way it should be.

Yeah, like I said when I watched about 10 minutes of his round 5 game, he and his opponent looked like they were having a great time. I have to admit I was rooting against him as the "favored" side, though as I like to cheer for the underdog.

It was a pleasure to follow! Grats to Tony.

Tony is not a bad guy it's just a stigma of people trying to justify why they lost to a teen.

Obviously it is time to start testing 40K players for doping!!!

I think its safe to say Stelek is clean...

Is there a place where we can view their lists? I heard one of the guys brought a 50 man guard blob and would like to see if he used only IG units in it, or did what everyone else does of sticking a tough allied IC in with them.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Is there a place where we can view their lists? I heard one of the guys brought a 50 man guard blob and would like to see if he used only IG units in it, or did what everyone else does of sticking a tough allied IC in with them.

If it's the list I think you're asking about, the 50 man blob included 5 sergeants with power axes, a Primaris Psyker (using Biomancy) and Njal Stormcaller, the Space Wolf Rune Priest special character.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Is there a place where we can view their lists? I heard one of the guys brought a 50 man guard blob and would like to see if he used only IG units in it, or did what everyone else does of sticking a tough allied IC in with them.

If it's the list I think you're asking about, the 50 man blob included 5 sergeants with power axes, a Primaris Psyker (using Biomancy) and Njal Stormcaller, the Space Wolf Rune Priest special character.

Dang, I really don't want to have to use an allied IC for the blobs. I was hoping to see him with some sort of IG character. Oh well.

 CT GAMER wrote:

perrin23860 wrote:
Apparently it was also ruled that his "autohits" for chain lightning can hit flyers, even though it isn't resolved as snapfire, and yet blood lance, which does the exact same thing, can't hit flyers. Weird. Wouldn't be the way I'd run it either.

Are they using a magic eight ball to make those sorts of calls?

Sounds like a great way to run a competative event...

 AresX8 wrote:
That's because Blood Lance is a PSA. Njal's abilities are not PSAs.

Makes sense to me. If they were both PSA's and ruled this way then you'd have a point, but it looks like a little more thought went into it than you're suggesting.

As for whether it's "fair" or not, ask GW, they're the ones who designed it that way. Unless you expect Mike and company to do a complete rules rewrite for their event all you can really do is work with what you're given.

 thehod wrote:
Tony is not a bad guy it's just a stigma of people trying to justify why they lost to a teen.

I got started playing 40K and got the snot kicked out by a teen player (25 years ago). That got me thinking that there must be something to this game.

As far as the stigma, man there is far more important things in life than that. Like breathing, and making paper flowers, sniffing elmers glue and fun stuff like that.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 thehod wrote:
Tony is not a bad guy it's just a stigma of people trying to justify why they lost to a teen.

I got started playing 40K and got the snot kicked out by a teen player (25 years ago). That got me thinking that there must be something to this game.

As far as the stigma, man there is far more important things in life than that. Like breathing, and making paper flowers, sniffing elmers glue and fun stuff like that.

Huh?

 Byte wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 thehod wrote:
Tony is not a bad guy it's just a stigma of people trying to justify why they lost to a teen.

I got started playing 40K and got the snot kicked out by a teen player (25 years ago). That got me thinking that there must be something to this game.

As far as the stigma, man there is far more important things in life than that. Like breathing, and making paper flowers, sniffing elmers glue and fun stuff like that.

Huh?

He's got a point you know. I mean, I don't know about you, but I love paper flowers.

It was great to watch The 11th Company's replays on UStream. Thanks a lot. It was funny to see Danny Kopach not have a Grey Knight Codex while playing Grey Knights. Watching the video, In the final game, it appeared Tony Kopatch took dead models and created a new 5 many Grey Hunters squad. Around 54 minutes into the video, he was deploying his reserves and had two piles of Grey Hunters, 5 man and 10 man squads. He deployed the 10 man squad in the center, but left 2 of the 10 models on his left. Then he deployed the 5 man squad on his left and then moved them into the center (looks like into difficult terrain with out rolling). He still forgot to deploy the two models back on his left. Then around 1:26, he said 5 Grey Hunters were knocked down and used the 2 left over models and took 3 casualties to form a new 5 man squad on his left flank. Their point value probably effected his opponent from contesting that quadrant and objective as it was very tight. He also added a model to a unit on the back left flank stating that unit had not taken any casualties. Personally, I believe both were honest mistakes, but I think casualties need to be removed from the table and adding models back on to the table really shouldn't be done.

I too would like to thank the 11th company for putting on yet another great effort in the new world of streaming 40k. They're narration was good, and only a couple hiccups that I noticed, technically speaking wise. The screen shifter to the left a couple times, truncating the table a bit, and there was a white noise issue or two also, at least on my lines. Not sure if this was what everyone noticed... All in all though its a great setup.

Being unable to attend due to the weekday requirements and work this year, it was certainly nice to be able to watch a bit in my free time. I was hoping to come as I had a truly fun time last year.

Congrats to all those involved in making yet another highly enjoyable event happen, particularly Mike Brandt. I'd simply like to say that even though I don't know him very well, he comes across as one of the most genuine guys and not just to me. I can't even imagine the work/dedication that goes into an event that big, and the awesome support he must have. Truly cool.

Also, just because I stated earlier in this thread that I don't see some rulings the same way as NOVA, doesn't mean that I have any less respect for the effort that goes into the event, as well as the opinions/interpretations of said rulings.

Congrats to Tony, (doubt he knows who I am, only spoken to him once in passing), on an impressive streak, no matter how you look at it.

I think my favorite game I watched personally was Alex Fennel vs Zack Propps. Both fellows were very good sports, and I like how Alex does a great job being open and helpful even to his opponent. You don't see that kind of regular good performances at multiple high level GT's, with such great sportsmanship and spotless reputation. I hope I have the priveledge to play him one day.

Alex Fennell is a pretty awesome guy to play against.

Congrats to Tony! He is a good kid and hope to see him at a Wargames con. Love the 50 man blob. Big fat units of hard to get rid of troops is the key to a lot of 6th edition games. Plus when you charge, you get shot by a ton of flashlights and feel like a star haha.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The NOVA FAQ ruling is that the decision to Evade can only be made after rolling to hit, before rolling to penetrate. And that rolling to hit is a prerequisite for Evading.

Wouldn't be the ruling I'd make, but it certainly makes Njal even better.

The SW FAQ states no cover save from NJal's vengeful tornado as it is not a shooting attack and jink is a cover save

So not only the NOVA FAQ was involved

Good catch! That does seem a pretty clear precedent, for the next result on the same table. Strange that CL isn't also mentioned in that question, but still. Looks legit to me.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Good catch! That does seem a pretty clear precedent, for the next result on the same table. Strange that CL isn't also mentioned in that question, but still. Looks legit to me.

it is strange given their similarity

From the old INAT

SW.53G.05 – Q: Is ‘Chain Lightning’ a shooting
attack? Does it occur before or after Morale Checks
are taken at the end of the shooting phase?
A: It is treated exactly as a regular shooting attack except
that it hits automatically and can affect multiple enemy
units. Resolve these attacks before taking any Morale
Checks at the end of the phase [clarification].

Granted, that was 5th edition though. Ahhh the vagary of a new edition...

So basically, what used to be an ability that allowed cover to whatever could claim it, on a 4+, back in those days, now allows no save whatsoever...

Bear in mind that NOVA doesn't use INAT. And of course, the edition has changed, so we're going to have to completely revamp INAT.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not sore here. Just because I talk about these things doesn't mean that. Just making points here in my own little corner of the internet. I still have deep respect for any T.O., including Mike Brandt. If it weren't for guys like him, guys like me would be gak outta luck. He had a tough row to hoe this year too with a new edition, and from all accounts, people seemed to have had a great time, which I was hoping to experience as well, but was unable to go due to the friday start this year...

I think njals special powers are best treated as an special type attack in and of themselves. Sort of the way sweep attacks are done
the sw faq hints at that with its not quite a shooting or cc


I can see why inat house ruled it that way in 5th as its simple
Also flyers don't really need special
protection
from power that is random and only available 4th turn onwards with 12 " range

that's lots of turns to kill him and if you dont just stay out of range
i just think njals special powers caught people off guard again like every nova i have watched

Jesus just pack a GK Stormraven and mind strike missile Njal off the board. That way there is no gnashing of teeth over rules afterwards.

Just for clarity, we did not rule on Njal's powers in the NOVA FAQ.

We ruled them on the spot when asked in the following way:

Appropriate Rules of Reference:

Codex: Space Wolves, Page 53, Lord of Tempests Game Effect Table:

6 - Vengeful Tornado:
At the end of Njal's Shooting Phase, a model within 18" is ravaged by a tornado, taking D3 S9 hits. Vehicles are hit on their side armour.

7+ - Chain Lightning:
At the end of Njal's Shooting phase, unengaged enemy units within 12" of Njal take D6 S8 hits with an AP of 5.

First component, neither of these are Shooting Attacks. They also do not Roll to Hit. They roll to determine whether they occur at all at the beginning of the turn, and they roll to determine how many hits occur. They do not Roll to Hit.

Next, the rules for Evade, on Page 81 of the large rulebook:

If a Zooming Flyer comes under fire, the pilot can throw his craft into a series of evasive manoeuvres in an attempt to avoid taking damage. After the enemy has rolled To Hit against one of your Flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots.

Note that Njal's powers in question are not shooting attacks, and do not roll to hit. The choice to Evade can ONLY be made after the enemy has rolled To Hit.

The NOVA DID NOT RULE that there were no COVER saves permitted against Vengeful Tornado or Chain Lightning. In fact, we ruled you COULD take cover saves. We simply ruled that the choice to Evade could not be made against either of them, because they were not shooting attacks and did not roll to hit. In the case of affected units in area terrain, units that had already evaded, units with the Jink rule, units with KFF effects, smoke, etc., cover saves all applied, because the cover save was already in effect when the hits were suffered.

Just so all know ... we did not rule "NO COVER SAVES," and we did not consider these at all similar to Blood Lance, etc., because ... well, they aren't at all similar. A non-shooting-attack special effect is not at all the same as a shooting attack or psychic shooting attack.

Thanks for the lucid explanation. Very insightful.

Seems rather powerful though, perhaps I'm alone in thinking this way though.

Is there anything else that autohits flyers in the game that allows now save? Heck, even just autohits flyers?

Good enough for me, MVB. Really bummed I wasn't able to make it out this year, perhaps next time!

perrin23860 wrote:
Thanks for the lucid explanation. Very insightful.

Seems rather powerful though, perhaps I'm alone in thinking this way though.

Is there anything else that autohits flyers in the game that allows now save? Heck, even just autohits flyers?

It sounds like Imotekh's lightning would also be able to autohit flyers if you roll that 6. Then again, is the random rolling of 6 actually a To-Hit roll, or is it not? Off to YMDC!

Probably a moot point since nobody takes Imotekh in this edition anyway

Immotek hit his allied ork flyer in one of my games with his lightning....Just saying